The Derby.......

[Mithras]

I admire O'Brian's skill & he clearly has a real connection with thoroughbreds & the horses trust him & he them. My concern is their policy of promoting one blood line to the exclusion of others. Someone told me they are trying to diversify the blood. That's my gripe.
They are extremely good at planning matings & basically all they do.
However there isn't the competition & it is making racing less interesting. I understand what you are on about with tactics though.

I agree; you could argue that Ballydoyle's success with the Northern Dancer line is one of the main causes of the inbreeding to this line that has occurred. Pretty soon it won't be possible to diversify the bloodlines much.

Ballydoyle have certainly worked out how to produce top class middle distance horses. I guess they know how to work with certain sire lines best.

Dawn Approach's run was one of the oddest I've seen from a favourite in a Derby, it was not pleasant to watch.

 

[Louise12]

Regarding breeding, name me a runner in the race that didn’t have Northern Dancer blood. Pacemakers are team tactics as far as I’m concerned. If your horse can’t run on its merits then it shouldn’t be there. Luckily Ballydoyle are shambolic in this regard

 

[Honeylight]

That's the problem Louise. Coolmore have swamped the market with Northern Dancer lines. Great stallion though he was & his sons, there are few outcrosses around. As all the Oaks runners were like wise inbred to Northern Dancer....where do we go from here?

USA may be the only place, there are some other bloodlines just about hanging on there.

 

[Louise12]

That's the problem Louise. Coolmore have swamped the market with Northern Dancer lines. Great stallion though he was & his sons, there are few outcrosses around. As all the Oaks runners were like wise inbred to Northern Dancer....where do we go from here?

USA may be the only place, there are some other bloodlines just about hanging on there.

I couldn't agree more, Honeylight. ND and Mr Prospector are a disease as far as I am concerned, and I would like to see the doors shut in Coolmore forever. You won't get any argument from me! And don't get me started on Sadler's Wells and the NH game...

 

[Louise12]

…just to add, do you really think the US is where the hope lies? I think they are in as much trouble as we are. South America perhaps, or else continental Europe? We had Ahonoora, but have totally abandoned him. Roberto is dying out. Even some of the better ND lines (Nijinsky) have been abandoned. Everything is focussed around Sadler’s Wells and Danehill. It depresses me

 

[Honeylight]

I'm glad that someone agrees with me! It is a desperate situation & I think V O'Brian, Magnier et al were at the start of it.
Just pick up a Stallion Book from the 1970s & one now & you will see how the gene pool has shrunk!

 

[pip6]

With careful management a small gene pool can succeeed. I'm into Crabbet arabs, that is arabs that came from / imported by, a single UK stud (Crabbet Park) last century. Most arabs in the world now have some % of Crabbet in them, but the numbers of high % are relatively small. When breeding my mare, I was very careful to use an outcross line on her, & have even imported frozen straws from an American stallion (Blacklord Falkhan by Blacklord Arabi, approx 50% Crabbet) to reintroduce some lines lost to the UK. There is a healthy genetic exchange also with Australia, who many years ago imported lines we have now lost (using Aussie breeding bay gene been reintroduced into UK).

There are far fewer high % Crabbets than non ND tb's, mine are 96% & 98% Crabbet, both 100% GSB(Old English - registered before stud book shut in early 20th century), even less 100% Crabbets, but we make efforts to preserve the lines. It just takes some people with committment.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

At least the jumpers are seeing the value in AQPS horses at the moment. But then the mares will be put to the likes of Milan, Yeats, Brian Boru et al.

 

[Honeylight]

…just to add, do you really think the US is where the hope lies? I think they are in as much trouble as we are. South America perhaps, or else continental Europe? We had Ahonoora, but have totally abandoned him. Roberto is dying out. Even some of the better ND lines (Nijinsky) have been abandoned. Everything is focussed around Sadler’s Wells and Danehill. It depresses me

The problem is that breeders are ignoring outcrosses that come along. They end up siring jumpers or going to somewhere like Turkey. Shaamit seemed good to revitalise the Blandford line, but he wasn't popular & then died young. Manduro is a good stallion in this respect. Perhaps things would have been better if Troy & Shergar had served out normal careers. Shame breeders consider the ST Leger & Ascot Gold Cup a kiss of death too.
Racehorse breeding has become like the fashion & pop industries.

 

[Louise12]

I’m with you Honeylight! I can’t believe how daft breeders are. Advertising is incredibly powerful. When you think of how Mill Reef succeeded covering 40 mares a year in a truncated career, and then compare that with the supposedly successful stallions we see now, who cover anything up to 300+ mares a year in two hemispheres… let’s just say their chances of success, and of leaving a multitude of useless individuals to return to the gene pool are that much greater. That’s interesting about the Arab breeding. As you say though, pip6, it will take commitment to change things. Did Crabbet focus on a small number of bloodlines too? I think the money element in TBs will make it harder for people to change. We also don’t have AI (yet), so small breeders are reliant on farms bringing new bloodlines in. As EKW says, we do at least see fresh blood, particularly with a spot of non-TB in it, coming from the continent, but with our small studs being wiped out in Ireland (can’t compete), everything centres around the big stallion farms with their narrow focus. Also we rarely see non-TB mares of our own now. The last high class non-TB from Ireland that I can remember was His Song, whereas they used to be relatively commonplace

 

[Honeylight]

I’m with you Honeylight! I can’t believe how daft breeders are. Advertising is incredibly powerful. When you think of how Mill Reef succeeded covering 40 mares a year in a truncated career, and then compare that with the supposedly successful stallions we see now, who cover anything up to 300+ mares a year in two hemispheres… let’s just say their chances of success, and of leaving a multitude of useless individuals to return to the gene pool are that much greater. That’s interesting about the Arab breeding. As you say though, pip6, it will take commitment to change things. Did Crabbet focus on a small number of bloodlines too? I think the money element in TBs will make it harder for people to change. We also don’t have AI (yet), so small breeders are reliant on farms bringing new bloodlines in. As EKW says, we do at least see fresh blood, particularly with a spot of non-TB in it, coming from the continent, but with our small studs being wiped out in Ireland (can’t compete), everything centres around the big stallion farms with their narrow focus. Also we rarely see non-TB mares of our own now. The last high class non-TB from Ireland that I can remember was His Song, whereas they used to be relatively commonplace

In my early teens I went to Newmarket & there were many private studs standing stallions from various bloodlines. At Snailwell stud I was shown Busted from Blandford line & Athens Wood from Prince Rose line. At Beech House there were St Paddy (Hyperion line) Crepello & Twilight Alley (Blandford line) & Pinza (Chanteur line). All these would be straight to jumper breeding now. Very sad. You need a bit of "rough" sometimes & solid staying blood; the French jumpers are doing that. I think these "super stud farms" with 300 books are just plain wrong. Stallions served 40 for a reason.

 

[Mitchyden]

Pacemakers are team tactics as far as I’m concerned. If your horse can’t run on its merits then it shouldn’t be there.

I agree with this 100%. It's about time that pacemakers were banned!

 

[pip6]

Crabbet reguarly imported from Egypt, & infact had a stud out there as well. It's just this single stud has had a massive influence on the breed, not unlike what is happening at Coolmore. However, there are a very limited number of individuals with high % Crabbet (75%+) lines.

These animals are very different to what you will know as 'arab' from the show ring. It's like they've been kept in a timewarp, they are the original desert warhorse, powerful, leg in each corner, tough, sound, fantastic paces & with amazing temperaments (not the snort/blow/exotic 'type' which is so fashionable). This is why they are sort after for ridden competition horses, you get the all round athlete, unlike many show specimens which don't have the temperament to compete & look likely to break down if asked for hard work. Crabbets are successful endurance horses, ridden show horses (where they are appreciated much more - who wants to sit on a firework), I know a couple that event (remember the Arabian Knights Team Chasers? - Crabbets) & do dressage.

The price paid is because they aren't fashionable, there has been limited breeding over the years when the focus in arabs was to produce the 'exotic' type. What has survived though, in the hands of committed breeders who are trying to keep a healthy gene pool, not only to produce more high % Crabbets, but for other breeders to be able to use them as crosses (they make amazing outcrosses giving quality to just about anything).

If horses from a single stud can be managed successfully to produce a breed sub-type (Crabbet arabs don't look like others, such as Shagya, Polish or Egyptian), then surely a breed can be managed to keep it's stock healthy. It needs the major breeders to start looking at the overall situation, not just there own stallions. After all, they can only inbreed to their own stock so much before genetic problems will appear. Crabbet breeders are also committed to the eradication of SCID & LFS.

In the days where parentage can be genetically tested, not using AI is just so backward. Why insist on natural covering? It does give the resulting foal an advantage. Time to bring tb breeding forward, it's not even reached the 20th century yet let alone the 21st.

For Information:
http://www.crabbet.org.uk/index.aspx

 

[pip6]

86% Crabbet Stallion.

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r32/clutha/RP3_54646_E57_resize_brighter.jpg

 

[pip6]

Got there in the end.

 

[Louise12]

Thanks pip6, I shall read up. I'm pretty ignorant on Arabs. AI has so far been blocked in the TB industry, probably by those same powerful individuals who are raking in money with their existing arrangements. Prof Twink Allen (Dettori's father in law) is an advocate - if you put his name into google you'll get plenty of results on the debate.

 

[Alec Swan]

As we've recently witnessed the goings-on at Godolphin, and elsewhere, does anyone honestly think that AI in the TB world is such a good thing? Just because the registration form was signed by a qualified vet, wouldn't mean a thing to me. How many veterinary practices would be able to turn down the massive wealth of the Middle East, I wonder.

Opening up the TB Breeding Industry to the practice of Artificial Insemination, would spell disaster. There's enough corruption now, without holding the door open.

Alec.

 

[Louise12]

There are good arguments for and against. Can you be more specific about the corruption you mention? I don't understand what you are suggesting, or how the possibility for a vet meddling with a registration form would be any different from now. They would, of course, have to fake the blood sample at the same time, and the microchip number. I'm not sure how, exactly, you think they would get away with this (if I understand you correctly).

 

[Suelin]

As we've recently witnessed the goings-on at Godolphin, and elsewhere, does anyone honestly think that AI in the TB world is such a good thing? Just because the registration form was signed by a qualified vet, wouldn't mean a thing to me. How many veterinary practices would be able to turn down the massive wealth of the Middle East, I wonder.

Opening up the TB Breeding Industry to the practice of Artificial Insemination, would spell disaster. There's enough corruption now, without holding the door open.

Alec.

I quite Agree Alec. I find myself wondering about the purity of French Arabs. To me they just look like mini TB's.

 

[Alec Swan]

....... Can you be more specific about the corruption you mention? ....... or how the possibility for a vet meddling with a registration form would be any different from now. ........

By all means;

1. With Gerard Butler now being found to have used illegal drugs on horses, and Sheik Mohammed having been himself banned as have his staff, I suspect that there is an element of corruption within racing.

2. Were the Authorities to permit artificial insemination, then one of the conditions, almost certainly, would be that the work would have to be carried out by a qualified Vet, and to suggest that Veterinary Practices wouldn't be put under pressure, by the uber-wealthy, would be naive, at the very least.

Setting corruption on one side for a moment, I wonder with the concerns voiced by the more knowledgable, concerning the worrying focus on certain stallions, Northern Dancer and Saddlers Wells being two, would it not worsen the situation to have semen from two such horses available, worldwide?

Alec.

 

[bonny]

By all means;

1. With Gerard Butler now being found to have used illegal drugs on horses, and Sheik Mohammed having been himself banned as have his staff, I suspect that there is an element of corruption within racing.

2. Were the Authorities to permit artificial insemination, then one of the conditions, almost certainly, would be that the work would have to be carried out by a qualified Vet, and to suggest that Veterinary Practices wouldn't be put under pressure, by the uber-wealthy, would be naive, at the very least.

Setting corruption on one side for a moment, I wonder with the concerns voiced by the more knowledgable, concerning the worrying focus on certain stallions, Northern Dancer and Saddlers Wells being two, would it not worsen the situation to have semen from two such horses available, worldwide?

Alec.

Northern Dancer and Saddlers Wells are both long dead so doubt that would be a problem !

 

[Louise12]

By all means;

1. With Gerard Butler now being found to have used illegal drugs on horses, and Sheik Mohammed having been himself banned as have his staff, I suspect that there is an element of corruption within racing.

2. Were the Authorities to permit artificial insemination, then one of the conditions, almost certainly, would be that the work would have to be carried out by a qualified Vet, and to suggest that Veterinary Practices wouldn't be put under pressure, by the uber-wealthy, would be naive, at the very least.

Setting corruption on one side for a moment, I wonder with the concerns voiced by the more knowledgable, concerning the worrying focus on certain stallions, Northern Dancer and Saddlers Wells being two, would it not worsen the situation to have semen from two such horses available, worldwide?

Alec.

I’m still not absolutely clear on what you are suggesting. TB foals for racing are parentage (DNA) tested. This is generally done by July in their year of birth, because costs rise after 31st July (although this is irrelevant). The input by the vet is to fill out the markings form, take the blood sample and microchip the foal. Why anyone would falsify any documentation at this stage I’m not sure, because all this information is sent to Weatherby’s, who process foal registration. Were a vet to make any mistake with the blood sample or microchipping (which, in the context off breeding, is what matters), it would be caught either when the horse races, or when it becomes a parent. Mistakes can happen with markings, so this is not a major issue in the days of horses being microchipped, although they should be kept as accurate as possible. Regarding the focus on certain stallions, this is a concern for me if AI were to be used. However, there is a very valid argument to the reverse, as mooted by pip6, that in fact wider access to more bloodlines would improve with AI. Certainly in a small island country like Ireland, if the vast majority of our stallions are increasingly of one bloodline, then there is a case for AI giving better accessibility to outcrosses.

 

[gadetra]

AI would also allow already over used lines to proliferate even more.
I would think so would result in the overuse of the same old same old rather than what it should be used for-opening up out cross lines. Breeding is mainly if not near 100% commercial in this country and I don't personally know anyone who can afford to take a punt on outcross lines, come sales time.
It should help but I very much doubt it will.
In light of recent controversy, I can imagine the system being abused. If the brown envelope is fat enough who's to say a vet won't be tempted to grab the wrong tail/mane sample and blood sample? After that happens it's up to someone with big suspicions and deep pockets to prove parentage is not as recorded!

 

[Louise12]

Hi Gadetra, there is simply no point falsifying parentage. I’m not saying that it can’t happen (I’d have to think harder about this though), but unless the horse was very luckily never checked, very bad, and never used for breeding it would be caught. Regarding the point about outcrosses and taking a punt, outcrosses are not necessarily a bad thing. Presenting is an outcross for Northern Dancer, as is Flemensfirth – two of the most commercial sires around. However, both are very expensive, and another argument in favour of AI is that it would pull down those prices, as a small breeder could use, say, Network or Beat All etc. without travelling abroad

 

[AMH]

AI would inevitably reduce the cost of stud fees.

On the one hand, this would make more stallions accessible to those without massive funds. On the other hand, it would open those stallions up to a global breeding audience which could, potentially, further reduce diversity.

And are we not forgetting that ALL TBs are descended from only 3 stallions?

 

[gadetra]

Hi Gadetra, there is simply no point falsifying parentage. I’m not saying that it can’t happen (I’d have to think harder about this though), but unless the horse was very luckily never checked, very bad, and never used for breeding it would be caught. Regarding the point about outcrosses and taking a punt, outcrosses are not necessarily a bad thing. Presenting is an outcross for Northern Dancer, as is Flemensfirth – two of the most commercial sires around. However, both are very expensive, and another argument in favour of AI is that it would pull down those prices, as a small breeder could use, say, Network or Beat All etc. without travelling abroad

Hi Louise12 I agree with everything you've said and it would indeed be a great chance to diversify the gene pool but unfortunately I very very much dount it would be used that way. Look at the proliferation of ND and SW now and SW and ND line stallions and that's with live cover. AI would only enable these lines to become even more accessible, and, given how profitable thay are, I suspect they will dominate even more than they do now.

Maybe it shouldn't happen that way but it is a business ultimately, whatever way you look at it, and money has proven to be the ultimate judge in these things. I'm not disagreeing with AI I just don't think it will help matters. It will make the super profitable SW/ND lads more affordable as well as Flemensfirth, Presenting and other outcross lads.

Unless something is bred it probably won't be flagged. I have never come across someone sending off samples from a horse they bought to test the already DNA'd parentage. Blood tests taken for other things won't show up parentage either unless the sample is tested specifically for that.

 

[gadetra]

AI would inevitably reduce the cost of stud fees.

On the one hand, this would make more stallions accessible to those without massive funds. On the other hand, it would open those stallions up to a global breeding audience which could, potentially, further reduce diversity.

And are we not forgetting that ALL TBs are descended from only 3 stallions?

Only 3 stallions but those stallions were put on mares of various breeds on types to get the tb we have today. The inbreeding of the 3 foundation arabs was not as tight as the inbreeding of Northern Dancer today. These days, with horses racing at 2, flat sires have a relatively quick turnover, adn things are corssed qquicker and more intensely than in those far gone days. Transport has enabled ND bloodlines to proliferate in America and Australia so going outside Europe for outcrosses is not as easy as it was before. South America maybe? But they are there as well. The lines of the 3 foundation sires were kept relatively pure for quite a while before they were mixed I think, certainly more than the ND line is today. They also weren't all around at the same time, although I could be wrong about that. Ecilpse appears in 90% of all TB pedigrees, but so far back it does not affect things so much. It is the closeness of the ND in pedigree's with itself that is the problem I think. In 2000 ND was in 70% of all TB's, that can only be more now. Scary stuff!

 

[AMH]

I agree that ND is a huge influence in bloodlines. He was a sire of sires, and will inevitably crop up on both sides of pedigrees.

However, do we have evidence of any manifest disadvantage arising? Is there an increase in inherited defects as a result of this prevalence of blood? Take the example of HYPP in quarterhorses. The prevalence of that extremely debilitating and sometimes fatal condition is linked to one bloodline, that of the stallion 'Impressive', who was registered in the 70s and had a long breeding career into the 90s. Despite the clear genetic problems, people continue to breed to this line and and risk the potential of a homozygous foal. Although the AQHA no longer registers homozygous foals, this is a recent change, and some stock horse stud books still do not apply any restriction.

If anyone can demonstrate to me that the prevalence of ND lines has a detrimental effect on the health and wellbeing of offspring, then fair enough. But clearly that line is used because it is considered the best. And the example of Eclipse, when people only knew about heritable qualities based on what they saw and nothing else, bears out the fact that TBs have survived this kind of restriction in the past and are still a hugely diverse breed in terms of physical attributes.

 

[Louise12]

Well, regarding the popularity and success of ND, I refer you back to a previous post about the power of advertising. Witness the latest NH sale at Goffs. Figures are my own rudimentary research, but not too far out I hope - just 9% of the total consignment were free of ND. After the first day, 7 of the top ten lots were by non ND sires, and four of those had no ND at all (including the record priced top lot). The average price for horses with no ND at all in their pedigrees was 45k, the median 27k. Those with ND averaged 22k, median 20k. I included lots that didn’t sell @ 0 euros, but took out withdrawn lots. In terms of the Flat, there was some research done also that showed that Sadler’s Wells, for example, actually had a worse strike rate with mares than other stallions who covered the same mares, so super-stallions are not always what they seem. I always do my own research on stallions, and never believe the adverts. Regarding soundness and inbreeding, it cannot be proven either way that ND blood makes a horse more or less sound (there are too many variables), although there is plenty of evidence that his immense popularity (ref advertising) has led to mare owners patronising unsound stallions from the ND line in massive numbers. This is not good. What we also know is that with a stud book that is now closed (in contrast with the open one for the three founding Arabs), we need to take care to preserve diversity

 

[gadetra]

Well, regarding the popularity and success of ND, I refer you back to a previous post about the power of advertising. Witness the latest NH sale at Goffs. Figures are my own rudimentary research, but not too far out I hope - just 9% of the total consignment were free of ND. After the first day, 7 of the top ten lots were by non ND sires, and four of those had no ND at all (including the record priced top lot). The average price for horses with no ND at all in their pedigrees was 45k, the median 27k. Those with ND averaged 22k, median 20k. I included lots that didn’t sell @ 0 euros, but took out withdrawn lots. In terms of the Flat, there was some research done also that showed that Sadler’s Wells, for example, actually had a worse strike rate with mares than other stallions who covered the same mares, so super-stallions are not always what they seem. I always do my own research on stallions, and never believe the adverts. Regarding soundness and inbreeding, it cannot be proven either way that ND blood makes a horse more or less sound (there are too many variables), although there is plenty of evidence that his immense popularity (ref advertising) has led to mare owners patronising unsound stallions from the ND line in massive numbers. This is not good. What we also know is that with a stud book that is now closed (in contrast with the open one for the three founding Arabs), we need to take care to preserve diversity

That is extremely interesting re:sales figuers. That people may be looking outside ND and paying for outcross lines is great. There is hope.
Those facts and figures make me want to take my pen and calculator to The 'Field's sales reports!

I agree re advertising. Something other than a massive Coolmore add on the last page of the 'Field would be nice. They are everywhere, and I'm sure their advertising budget is astronomical.