The Dog and I REALLY are not getting on

amymay said:
Really??:confused::confused:

No wonder she's unhappy.
Click to expand...

A lot of dogs don't like ambiguity and do not like to be in roles of responsibility/leadership but sometimes our behaviour/body language makes them feel forced into these roles. A bit like humans, I've never gone for promotion because I know I'm not a very good (wo)man manager, it freaks me out having to organise other people as well as myself, I prefer to stay in the background and do the donkey work.

The OP might THINK she is teaching this dog to be 'bottom of the pile' - but might not actually be doing this for a number of different reasons.

Having said that - I typed out a few replies to the OP on Saturday night and deleted them as they were a tad long-winded and techical - if you really want to work this out, it could be that you will have to change your whole demeanour, your voice, your actions, your behaviour, to make this work, and even then, her associations with your past behaviours might be too strong. If you can't or don't think you can commit to this, then I would still consider rehoming her.
 
Luci07 said:
umm.. why does no one read the post from the OP where she has said she is changing her style, and booked training for a 121 with the dog? Just saying!!!
Click to expand...

Quite agree:) thats one of my pet hates:eek: it isnt as though this a marathon post and people have jumped pages.

I think the op is doing the right thing and hope to hear back at some time with an up-date.
 
As everyone knows (cos I can't stop talking about them) we have two young malamutes, and the OH has had to work really hard to bond with the boy.

They are very sensitive dogs, and you have to handle them just right or they panic and need reassurance.

He's had to change his tone of voice and lower his 'aura' (sorry, I know it sounds naff) to allow the dog to get close to him. We've always used positive reinforcement, and NILIF ideas, but with these guys, it's so much more important. We try to save the 'NO' for really bad things, and keep it calm the rest of the time. The phrase 'ah ah ah' in a naughty child tone works really well and means we can avoid saying NO.

It has taken a while, but the OH and Hamish MacFuzz are really close now :)

Good luck with your hound, and I'm sure, given time and your willingness to try and change, it will all work out.
 
PercyMum said:
.......

I will not take her back to an already-stretched rescue centre when I just need to apply myself more to the problem.
Click to expand...

There should be no need.

Luci07 said:
umm.. why does no one read the post from the OP where she has said she is changing her style, and booked training for a 121 with the dog? Just saying!!!
Click to expand...

This is a very complex thread, with complex problems. There have been some very well reasoned arguments put forward, but I'm not too sure that any have got to the base of the problem.

The OP is no fool, and "thinks",...... but every now and then, a dog comes along which throws us, and all our experience out of the window. Every now and then, a dog asks questions of us.

I would be very cautious of one to one training. The OP needs to gain the dog's trust and respect, and in that may lay the problem. Training a dog which neither likes or respects us, will never work. FIRST and BEFORE we do any training, the dog has to actually WANT us, and without that, we will never make progress. Getting the dog to the stage where it wants us, is best achieved in the kitchen.

Lesson No 1, the dog has a bed and is directed to that bed, and made to lie down and stay where it's been put. Then it's ignored, no praise, not a word. When it's time to go outside, then the dog must again listen to you, and come to you for her lead. Again, no praise. When your dog accepts the instructions which you give, then both of you will be happier.

I'm going to suggest PercyMum, that you have a very difficult dog on your hands. People will tell you that greyhounds are stupid. They aren't, ok so you will find the odd one which is boneheaded, but generally they are very bright, and they can be very difficult, too! If you were able to send the other dog, her companion, away on holiday, for a while, so that you have a 121 with her, then that would help. It sounds to me as though your bitch is relying upon the other dog for guidance, when she should be looking to you for that.

Another point for you to consider; racing dogs, in training, are very rarely spoken too, and even more rarely are they made a fuss of. When they come into a pet home, the more sensitive find it difficult to cope with the wailing banshee who's pouring love and affection on them!! Quiet and purposeful approaches work best.

There's only one way that you can change your dog, change yourself and your approach, first. I'm not attacking you, it's just the way that it is. You can do it, and good luck.

Alec.
 
Good advice upthread but I just wanted to add that it's probably quite normal and even okay to dislike your dog some of the time.

One of mine has been a complete douche today - needy, whingy and deliberately disobedient (there are those that will argue that there's no such thing but snatching food from a plate while making eye contact with me and already cringing in expectation of the telling off but continuing anyway counts if you ask me!)

I don't like him much today. Probably he'll be my speshul boy again by tomorrow (especially if I stick a harness on him in the morning and run him until he drops :o). Possibly he'll wind me back up again by the weekend and I'll be relieved to dump him on the OH while I go to work. It's fine. I'm still quite fond of the furry little swine.
 
Thanks all for your replies, and thought I would post an update.

I took _GG_'s advice (thanks!) and ignored her for a week. Interestingly she has just ignored me as well. I spoke to our trainer who has said to hold off on 1-1 training as she feels she is trying to be dominant. She is very well trained (when she wants to be) so Jan doesnt feel more training is the answer, more our approach and not to get wound up as she feeds on this. When we first had her we took her to this trainer who agrees with you Alec in that she is awkward. She feels I need to change my approach to less authorative and more stand-offish and to just not engage with her when she misbehaves. Hubbie is back too and we are both adopting this outlook. So far, so good! It will be interesting to see if we have the same issues when he goes away again.

Its weird, when we first had her, she LOVED attention. Now she doesnt seem that bothered by it so seems happy to be ignored :confused:. Anyway, the point is we don't seem to dislike each other as much as we did and I hope we can work through it. She is lovely but at the end of the day, I guess she is a complicated woman!!!
 
I would get rid of that trainer if he is still using that idea that dogs are dominant, they are nothing of the sort. That idea was scientifically defunked in the 1970's and is being perpetuated again by a very popular American 'dog trainer' who is nothing more than a bully. Whole idea of dominance was performed on a bunch of captive male timberwolves which were fighting. This is a natural occurance in the wild between male wolves where their patch has been intruded upon but exaserbated by being confied. Timberwolves are not a dogs closet relative, the grey wolf is. In the wild a family of wolves do not use fear and intimidation to rule the pack as it does not correspond to the survival of the family unit.

The reason she is ignoring you is that you are ignoring her! She sees there is no point in engaging in contact as you are refusing to give it to her. Get back to giving her contact but only fun enjoyable contact for her and you. Since she now knows that you are rather capable of ignoring her she will want to do things that rewards her, which primarly is attention from you/your husband. If she only gets attention when she is behaving she will repeat any action to get that attention and eventually she will do as asked.

She sounds like she has trust issues with you, so to gain her trust I would suggest that you sit near her, tell her she is a good girl and give her a titbit of something she loves. Do this for a few minutes twice a day and slowly inch closer to the point where you can touch her without her whining. If she freeks out before you get to that point, go back to the distance she was comfortable you being away from her and continue to work upto touching. Touch her paw gently first and over the course of a few days make your way up her body. She will allow it as she is being rewarded. Once she has gained your trust back then you can progress to attempting her do do as you ask.
 
Richmond Park, while I am not sure the OP's bitch is being truly dominant, but you do not believe in dominance at all, have you ever observed a litter of puppies or a large group of strange dogs interacting?

OP, have you tried grooming her? Sounds silly but can be a good bonding exercise.
 
RichmondPark said:
,,,,,,,

.... If she only gets attention when she is behaving she will repeat any action to get that attention and eventually she will do as asked.

......
Click to expand...

Eventually? :D

PercyMum, ignore the post that surrounded the above quote. It's nonsense. Observe the behaviour patterns of any dogs which are kept en masse (as a pack), and you will see how there's a structured hierarchy.

Alec.
 
We only have three and they are dominant and subservient between themselves. My lurcher only has to stare at the lab and she gives up her bed/bone/ whatever and cringes away with no eye contact. Lurcher has met her match with the border though who is deaf and clueless and just ignores her when shes being bossy.
Of course dogs are dominant...how bizarre to say they aren't?
 
There was a great debate about this on another forum I frequent.
Basically was agreed that any animals who hunt to eat, including ourselves, operate through a system of hierarchy.

Most people on that forum have multiple dogs and are training for sports, service, search and rescue, herding, etc, to quite a high level.

The point was also made that anybody who thinks that dogs DO show dominance, is immediately branded as a cruel, unenlightened, backwards, old-fashioned thicko who does not have enough intelligence to read all this lovely research, and who probably beats their dog. Sound familiar?!
 
CaveCanem said:
The point was also made that anybody who thinks that dogs DO show dominance, is immediately branded as a cruel, unenlightened, backwards, old-fashioned thicko who does not have enough intelligence to read all this lovely research, and who probably beats their dog. Sound familiar?!
Click to expand...

Familiar to me!? Definately, although I don't beat them I just do that Cesar milan noise,w orks every time! (the tsssh one)
 
Its is a rather large topic of discussion as to what we percieve to be dominance. It is not to say that I dont believe in dominance, it is the idea that a dog that is behaving in a specific way is immediately branded as being dominant. It is a word that is far to freely used for behaviours that are not in fact not dominant whatsoever.

Here is an intresting scientific paper on the topic of dominance which is worth a read . http://www.pawsoflife.org/Library/Behavior/Bradshaw_2009.pdf

Alec, my advice is not nonsense and like all people they can take it or leave it. Some people advocate the use of harsh handling in dogs, I dont.
 
Case in point - why do people who believe that some dogs can exhibit dominance, immediately be branded 'harsh'?

I do absolutely believe that 9/10 pet dogs are not displaying 'dominance', it is bandied about much too frequently and most dogs displaying undesirable behaviour are confused and frustrated (or unwell) and not sure of where they are in life. But there are absolutely 'dominant' dogs out there.

Another point which was made on the other forum - there's book learning and there's practical learning.
 
Last edited:
Haha, posted after your comment Caveman, right into your trap :-)

OK the cruz of the matter is that dominence is used too much to explain behaviour where in fact most of it is learned behaviour i.e a kid screaming that its not getting sweets and the parent giving in to shut the child up. The child will do it again and again for the result that is learned behaviour when no element of dominace existed.

Where in this instance the dog has learned that if it screams when being touched it gets left alone. It has learned that being ignored, gives it no interaction (reward) so it doesnt interact.

We all have our own opinions, ok thats fair to say, but like I said people can take it or leave it as the freely choose to do so.
 
Oh I agree with those points. My dog has been screaming to avoid being lifted/moved/touched since he was seven weeks old. He doesn't do it anymore because I just keep on going through the screaming :p I would not call that part of his behaviour dominant (although he has other dominant traits), I would call it too bloody smart :p
 
CaveCanem said:
.......

I do absolutely believe that 9/10 pet dogs are not displaying 'dominance', it is bandied about much too frequently and most dogs displaying undesirable behaviour are confused and frustrated (or unwell) and not sure of where they are in life. .......

........
Click to expand...

Or perhaps those dogs which fail to display any predilection of behaviour, are as unhappy as they are, through lack of leadership. Interesting points. Puppies within a pack, be that 2 legged or 4, will seek to find their place, I suspect.

Again, I think that within any family of whatever persuasion, there will be those who are dominant. Generally with humans, it will be an adult (and in the case of the Irish, so often and so correctly, the mammy!), but with weak parents who lack any degree of drive, so a child will take over, and be the deciding force for most.

It doesn't work too well, when dogs find that they need to direct operations, because of lack of human guidance. It can be catastrophic.

Alec.
 
There is a clear pecking order with my 3. Oldest bitch, youngest then my poor henpecked boy. Not over food - they never try to shove off each other feed but the boy will get pushed out of the way if attention is on offer. Quite like it actually, all the eldest bitch has to do is look and the other 2 behave and she is currently teaching the Dally pup at the yard some doggy manners too. Dally is really lovely and soppy and seems to really adore being bossed about!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top