The end of horse-related collective marks in dressage?

Did hear a rumor about this, but didn't think it would actually come to pass.

I'll be happy I tend to get better marks for my riding than the pesky carriage horse duo get for submission ;).

Though in truth I'm not sure I do agree as they are quite an important part in my view and I'm not sure can be adequately covered during the movements in the test... Hmm one to watch and see how it develops I think...
 
I think it would be a good move. I think the comments are still relevant but the collectives really add nothing but duplication - good paces will result in good movements, bad submission will translate to bad movements...

What are we actually getting from the collectives at the moment, other than feedback in the comments? I noticed when we started doing FEI tests rather than just BD ones that the paces mark is already x 1 instead of x2 as in BD.
 
This is the sort of behind the scene work that fascinates me.
I would support the implementation of HighLo

Would need to give more thought to the collectives and hear the full arguments, but my initial gut feeling is there is merit to remove.
 
Yeah, I think I'm similarly on the fence. On the one hand it would be good not to have a more proficient test losing out to a horse that will always get better collectives, but on the other hand I can see some possibly unwanted outcomes as judges try to adequately account for those aspects in each movement.

Like you though, on a personal level I think it would improve my scores :p
 
I think collectives give an overview of what the judge sees and at the lower levels where people do use the sheets for adivice the loss of the collectives would be a shame
 
For me I guess the collectives show more how the overall test looked and can pin-point specific issues or highlights that may not be able to be described and picked up on in the midst of movements in the test?

I don't know, I kind of think that maybe this will result in tests being more harshly marked as not only will each movement be marked for it's accurateness, rhythm, suppleness and all the other stuff but now will the judge have to think about the submission, paces, impulsion specifically as well too?

I know those parts make up how well the horse can do the movements but not in a specific thought to marks, such as the horse was crooked maybe which could have been caused by a submission issue, but does the submission issue need to be pointed out here as well as what ever else was wrong about the movement? Just seems a lot to think about in those brief moments...

Definitely support HighLo though, can only see that being a fairer system!
 
Goldenstar said:
I think collectives give an overview of what the judge sees and at the lower levels where people do use the sheets for adivice the loss of the collectives would be a shame
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I'm not convinced the majority of amateur riders at the low levels really understand what the collective marks mean anyway, I know I didn't for years. The judges comments are still important. Anyway this suggestion is for FEI, it wouldn't necessarily filter down into your BD prelim/novice
 
I think the individual movements currently should be marked to take into account the stuff in the collectives - my experience is that they already are... it's 'way of going' isn't it? look at the directives for each movement. it's already there. The only bit not mentioned in the directives is the effect of the rider, hence the need to maintain this as a collective.

ETA directives for movement 1, AM 92 (i'm riding it in 2 weeks so have it to hand, lol) also FEI junior team competition test.

enter in canter, halt at x, salute. proceed in collected trot.

Directives:
Quality of paces, halt, and transitions. Straightness. Contact and poll.
 
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milliepops said:
I think the individual movements currently should be marked to take into account the stuff in the collectives - my experience is that they already are... it's 'way of going' isn't it? look at the directives for each movement. it's already there.
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Agree.
Tin hat on - at upper levels using collectives could be seen as a way of slightly boosting marks for a combination that 'should' have done better but just had some blips on that day. Removing collectives then puts the focus back on the movements as marked against FEI guidelines and the scrutiny which is currently being considered in HighLo
 
ihatework said:
I'm not convinced the majority of amateur riders at the low levels really understand what the collective marks mean anyway, I know I didn't for years. The judges comments are still important. Anyway this suggestion is for FEI, it wouldn't necessarily filter down into your BD prelim/novice
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Yes, apologies, I should've written that in the OP really, though obviously most replies will be with it hypothetically filtering down to BD in mind.

I do think the comments point is an interesting one, because I automatically went to thinking how it would work points-wise, but it is true that in the collectives the comments are often more useful than the marks in getting the feel for the overall impression given.
 
DabDab said:
I do think the comments point is an interesting one, because I automatically went to thinking how it would work points-wise, but it is true that in the collectives the comments are often more useful than the marks in getting the feel for the overall impression given.
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yes, I think i would value still having a brief "summing up" at the end of the test, though these days it really does tend to be very brief IME and not really telling you something you didn't know already, let's be honest!. But thinking about the comments for the individual movements, most do tend to relate to the way of going mentioned in the collectives - more bend in a half pass, more impulsion in a medium, more uphill in a circle, more engaged in a transition, etc etc

at FEI level they aren't likely to be commenting on poor accuracy or a badly ridden corner...the way of going is usually what pulls the mark down in one way or another, and that's what triggers the comment, surely?
 
I think it would be good to remove the horse-related collectives, as the paper notes they are already covered in the movement scores.

HighLo drop sounds good in principle, particularly if it's movement based rather than overall test, but I do wonder if it will make judges more conservative? There is already a tendency (at BD, I don't know about FEI) to overuse 6s and 7s, and I'm sure judges won't want to consistently be a drop score so they may show even more tendency towards the middle ground.
 
i think its a good idea to remove as so many horses at the lower levels do not have the extravagent movement but are correct in their way of going...hopefully this will let the more ordinary horses compete on a more level playing field.....the horses paces are judged in all movements anyway so IMO not needed to be marked twice....
 
Anyone else think it is odd that when there is a tie the one with the higher collectives wins, to be lower on collectives they must have scored higher in the main body of the test to end up on the same score.

All this does is reward the better mover that might have got a higher mark for paces or the fact that a well known rider will probably get a higher mark for their riding even though the other rider rode a better test to score higher in this section.
 
CoachinaCar said:
Anyone else think it is odd that when there is a tie the one with the higher collectives wins, to be lower on collectives they must have scored higher in the main body of the test to end up on the same score.

All this does is reward the better mover that might have got a higher mark for paces or the fact that a well known rider will probably get a higher mark for their riding even though the other rider rode a better test to score higher in this section.
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Yes one of the reasons i also agree with what another poster said in that you could ride a not very good test and then get boosted by the collectives.

I always seem to score the most for rider in collectives so would be happy to keep that one but the rest I usually loss a lot of marks on. Can get 7's and 8's in the test but 6's in the collectives.
 
CoachinaCar said:
Anyone else think it is odd that when there is a tie the one with the higher collectives wins, to be lower on collectives they must have scored higher in the main body of the test to end up on the same score.

All this does is reward the better mover that might have got a higher mark for paces or the fact that a well known rider will probably get a higher mark for their riding even though the other rider rode a better test to score higher in this section.
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Yes, I have always found that odd.
The riding collective mark can be a bit of a funny one, particularly at the top level, because one would assume that they are all pretty nifty riders to be at the top.
 
CoachinaCar said:
Anyone else think it is odd that when there is a tie the one with the higher collectives wins, to be lower on collectives they must have scored higher in the main body of the test to end up on the same score.

All this does is reward the better mover that might have got a higher mark for paces or the fact that a well known rider will probably get a higher mark for their riding even though the other rider rode a better test to score higher in this section.
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I suppose another way to look at it would be if there is one movement that pulls the overall score down (an error, break in pace in one medium, a spook etc) - if the mark is generally sitting 6/7 throughout but you get a 3/4 where someone else has a few more 6s than 7s but doesn't have the 3/4 - they'll get the same overall mark and then the collectives would forgive the blip as the overall impression was better. it's worth noting that the judges shouldn't be veering far from the marks given throughout the test - if the main bulk is a 65% test then you'd expect 6-7 throughout the collectives, if you've a few 8s and a few 5s in the main bulk then you could get the same in your collectives.
 
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