The end of the horsebox and 4x4?

[cp1980]

Climate change is happening. Most of the (usually cautious) scientific community are fairly certain of it. Most of the politicians, from all the main parties, are making noises about doing something about it. Even if you ignore the environmental issues, the liklihood is that the price of oil will become very high as China and India develop into industrian nations.

In any case, in ten years from now a typical working couple or family won't be able afford the running costs of a 4x4 or a lorry.

Don't whinge, don't stamp your feet, we are not being victimised, this goes beyond equestrianism, it goes beyond UK politics. It's something that is happening in the global environment and affecting society as a whole. Things are changing and complaining about it is as fruitless as King Canute commanding the tide to stay out.

We need to adapt. We need to look at alternitive forms of horse transport.

Automotive technology is developing quickly, and it's important that the trailer manufacturers move with it. Is it really necassary to use a 4x4 to tow a horse trailer? Are modern family-sized cars not well-engineered enough to tow a single horse trailer? Can horse trailers be made more stable and less reliant on the towing car for stability?



Look at this:

The weight of a tow car is considered to be one of the most significant factors when it comes to safety and stabilty when towing.

The kerbweight (empty weight) of diesel Land Rover Freelander is about 1555 kg. It throws out about 205 grammes of carbon per km. Or just under 40 miles per gallon. WhatCar Freelander Specs

Would it suprise you that these cars weigh more?

Peugeot 307 SW

WhatCar 307 SW stuff

Kerb Weight: 1575 kg (20 kg heavier)
Manufacturer's Max Towing Weight: 1500 kg
85% rule: 1338 kg
Fuel Ecomomy: 50 miles per gallon (ten miles or 25% more!)
Carbon Emmisions: 148 g/km







Volkswagen Passat Saloon

WhatCar VW Passat Saloon Stats

Kerb Weight: 1648 kg
Manufacturers max towing weight: 1800 kg
85% rule towing weight: 1400 kg
Fuel Ecomony: 46.3 miles per gallon
Carbon Emissions: 159 g/km



And this is interesting...

Look at the empty weight and payload specified for a single horse trailer by Ifor Williams for the UK market on this webpage:

http://www.iwt.co.uk/products/horse/hb401.htm

Kerb Weight = 770 kg; Max Weight 1600 kg



Now look at this Ifor Williams website for the French market:
http://www.ifor-williams.fr/products/horse/hb401.htm

Kerb Weight (Poids à vide): 560kg; Max Weight: 1100 - 1400kg


Similarly, Bateson do a rear unload trailer called the Derby which weighs 675 kg empty; Cheval Liberte do a single trailer that weights as little as 500 kg empty http://www.cheval-liberte.com/catalogues/vans/1000.pdf

If a 16.2 horse weighs about 600kg, and a good horse trailer need not weigh more than 650 kg, then it will upto total 1250 kg. Using the 85% rule, this means a car that weighs no less than 1470 kg. Most medium-sized family cars will have models that fit into this catagory.

So why do we need to use a vehicle bigger than a normal-sized car to move it around? Sure a 4x4 is easier to drive when towing and useful in muddy fields, but if it comes to choice of using a medium-sized car or not moving your horse at all...



In summary, we need to scale-down and use appropriate technology to solve this problem. The onus is on us to adapt and on the trailer manufactures to invest more in design to ensure they have a future.

Here ends the lecture

 

[jemima]

I hear what you are saying but I'm afraid that I'm sticking with the argument that an awful lot of resources are wasted in manufacturing new - which is what you are advocating - so I will choose to do my bit for the environment by carefully preserving and reusing that which was manufactured many years ago.

A lorry is not used day-to-day as a family car. For me to replace my lorry with a car and trailer would waste an awful lot of resources and would also mean that instead of the small car I normally drive around in which does over 50mpg I would be using a larger one which would NOT return that sort of mileage day-to-day and certainly not whilst I was towing. Oh and of course I have two horses to take around so we'd have to replace the other car with a tow car as well and an additional trailer doubling the environmental impact.

For people buying new there is sense in what you say, but for people all ready set up the environmental impact of changing would be greater than the benefit.

 

[pottamus]

No I am sorry I do not see it! I am a 4x4 and IW trailer tower and there is no way in gods planet I would use either of the 2 cars you have listed to tow with...it would be downright lethal! I would like to point out also that when I was looking at trailers I did consider the single trailer as I only have the one horse...I was advised at the time by the IW Dealer not to consider it because it had issues with stability in bad weather and I would never get rid of it as a p/x because they are so un-popular...so to me not commercially viable. Aside from that...have you looked at one...they are well narrow and given the amount of room my horse takes up in the 505, there is no way he would have fit comfortably in one.
Yes, perhaps manufacturers could do something to improve trailers and/or make them lighter but they are carrying livestock at the end of the day and for that they need to be safe! In order to be safe they have to be built with certain materials and in a certain way from a structural point of view...
The government are not really just targeting 4x4 and high performance cars from a tax point of view, they are moving all vehicles up the scale full stop end of subject...so we will all suffer the extra cost, it is down to manufacturers of vehicles to improve their emmisions and make them more environmentally friendly.
But it is not just the vehicles that are the problem, we can all do things to help the situation...for example...every bulb in my entire house is low energy, I have water butts storing water for both my horse and my garden etc etc...
I just think the 4x4 situation is an easy target and bandwagon for people to jump on!

 

[conniegirl]

The freelander is illegal to tow a double horse trailer with, i believe its tow weight is 1.8 tonnes. I wouldnt tow with any of them. To start with, weve been weighed as towing 2.3 tonnes with 2 14hh ponies in the trailer, so your minimum tow weight would have to be 2 tonnes even for one horse as your tow weight also includes all the stuff in the boot (tack water etc) and any passengers excluding the driver.

 

[MagicMelon]

But its the 4 wheel drive bit that a lot of us need! We used to tow ponies with an estate car and I remember getting stuck in show fields quite often..... whereas now we have a 4x4 I cant remember ever being stuck. Plus we also use our 4x4 off the trailer in the snow. The government are being buggers, making such things as much higher tax for 4x4's doesnt help when some people actually NEED these vehicles! You dont need 4x4's for taking your children to school down in the South of England for example, whereas up here in the North of Scotland most people find they need one. They dont allow for this.

Anyway, where would I put all my stuff in a Passat?!! That would be a squeeze.

 

[Noodlejaffa]

I can't tow four horses in a trailer....

 

[Theresa_F]

You can do it with a med size car - I have the Derby and take only Chancer who is 14.2 and less than 400 k - I am within the legal tow limit for my car - I take it easy and the Derby is excellent to tow. If Chancer grows to weigh more than 550 then I will be overweight.

I take things very slowly and Chancer is a very steady traveller. I would never consider towing a horse or using a bigger trailer with my car. I also never travel more than 60 miles - normally no more than 30 miles each way max.

I make do, but would prefer a 4 x 4 as I do have to consider certain venues when travelling as to whether I can get off the field. I could also take another pony or a single bigger horse if I wished to.

Yes, people with one 14.2 pony could use one of the bigger saloons but this is very limiting.

 

[conniegirl]

Theresa, concidering one of my 14hhers weighs in the region of 550kg at his fatest he has been 600kg the lightest of my 14hhers weighs 450kg and he is a showpony. the heavier of the 2 wont travel in a single trailer, infact he wont even go in one, it took us 4 hours and anouther horse to get him in the double trailer the first time we got him. I also hate rear unloads, the amount of horses ive seen come off them wonky and injure themselves coming off the side of the ramp.
Double trailers are far more stable in windy conditions and 4x4's allow you to get off show fields without getting towed because i can garentee that tractors put out more crap then cars.

 

[conniegirl]

[ QUOTE ]

If a 16.2 horse weighs about 600kg, and a good horse trailer need not weigh more than 650 kg, then it will upto total 1250 kg. Using the 85% rule, this means a car that weighs no less than 1470 kg. Most medium-sized family cars will have models that fit into this catagory.


[/ QUOTE ]

Have you included all tack and water in that? and the passengers in the car? because that is what it has to include. I can garentee you will be over. Also one of my 14hh Ponies weighs 550kg? how do you propse i move 4 of them? 4 trips? surely that would put out more CO2 then one trip in a horse box or 2 in a 4x4 and double trailer, or even one tri in the new ifor 4 pony trailer?

 

[jinglejoys]

Couldn't get up or down my drive in one of those cars let alone pull a trailer

 

[cp1980]

[ QUOTE ]
there is no way in gods planet I would use either of the 2 cars you have listed to tow with...it would be downright lethal

[/ QUOTE ]

Your assumption is scientifically proven I take it?

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, perhaps manufacturers could do something to improve trailers and/or make them lighter but they are carrying livestock at the end of the day and for that they need to be safe! In order to be safe they have to be built with certain materials and in a certain way from a structural point of view...

[/ QUOTE ]

They are also constructed for a price. Techinically there is no reason why lightweight alloys can't be used in place of conventional steel. Aluminium and aluminium-steel hybrid trailers are common in the US.

Similarly, single horse trailers could have a wider wheel trackwidth to counter stability problems, perhaps coupled with raked/sloping exterior panels.

The suspension systems are currently very simple, and could be replaced bu something more techical.

Obviously, this would put the price of trailers up, but existing designs are facing the prospect of no longer being fit for purpose as the most polluting cars are being phased out.

[ QUOTE ]
The government are not really just targeting 4x4 and high performance cars from a tax point of view, they are moving all vehicles up the scale full stop end of subject...so we will all suffer the extra cost, it is down to manufacturers of vehicles to improve their emmisions and make them more environmentally friendly.


[/ QUOTE ]

But they can only do so much with conventional diesel engines.

[ QUOTE ]
But it is not just the vehicles that are the problem, we can all do things to help the situation...for example...every bulb in my entire house is low energy, I have water butts storing water for both my horse and my garden etc etc...
I just think the 4x4 situation is an easy target and bandwagon for people to jump on!

[/ QUOTE ]

True, road transport accounts for 20% of carbon emmissions, but like or not, 4x4s are being targeted. The hybrid cars produced by Toyota and Honda can't tow the skin off a rice pudding.

 

[cp1980]

[ QUOTE ]

Have you included all tack and water in that? and the passengers in the car? because that is what it has to include. I can garentee you will be over.

[/ QUOTE ]

Water and tack can fit in the car and so can passengers. These cars can probably take 400 kg or so in payload easliy (it is assumed that the driver weighs 75kg and this is included in the kerb weight figure, as is a full fuel tank. So if you take three passengers totalling 225 kg, you still have 175 kg for tack and water. That's 75 kg for tack, and 100 litres of water. More than enough!

Traveling light would be a necessity. It's either that or not at all.

[ QUOTE ]
Also one of my 14hh Ponies weighs 550kg? how do you propse i move 4 of them? 4 trips? surely that would put out more CO2 then one trip in a horse box or 2 in a 4x4 and double trailer, or even one tri in the new ifor 4 pony trailer?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course! What I am suggesting is that we will have to down-size. If you have to transport four ponies, then you should take whatever the least pollution (and therefore, cheapest) form of transport for you.

How about this:

This would do about 25-30 mpg with the trailer, whereas a 7.5t lorry would probably do about 15-20 mpg... And the van would probably be taxed less too.

 

[cp1980]

[ QUOTE ]
But its the 4 wheel drive bit that a lot of us need! We used to tow ponies with an estate car and I remember getting stuck in show fields quite often..... whereas now we have a 4x4 I cant remember ever being stuck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Show organisers would have to have a tractor on standby then.


[ QUOTE ]
Plus we also use our 4x4 off the trailer in the snow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if people keep using over-polluting cars that won't be a problem in the future

[ QUOTE ]
The government are being buggers, making such things as much higher tax for 4x4's doesnt help when some people actually NEED these vehicles! You dont need 4x4's for taking your children to school down in the South of England for example, whereas up here in the North of Scotland most people find they need one. They dont allow for this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree. The problem as I see it is there is no certainty that this will be taken into account.

However, the idea that motorists pay per mile may be a way around this. It sounds like each vehicle will be tracked. Therefore a Toyota Landcruiser Amazon doing the school run in Fulham should be charged £20 a day; and a Land Rover Defender in the middle of the countryside should be charged 10p. I hope this is what happens, but I'm not too optomistic at this stage. This is why I am suggesting we need to look at alternative ways to tranport horses.



[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, where would I put all my stuff in a Passat?!! That would be a squeeze.

[/ QUOTE ] Maybe a Passat estate then

 

[cp1980]

[ QUOTE ]
I hear what you are saying but I'm afraid that I'm sticking with the argument that an awful lot of resources are wasted in manufacturing new - which is what you are advocating - so I will choose to do my bit for the environment by carefully preserving and reusing that which was manufactured many years ago.

A lorry is not used day-to-day as a family car. For me to replace my lorry with a car and trailer would waste an awful lot of resources and would also mean that instead of the small car I normally drive around in which does over 50mpg I would be using a larger one which would NOT return that sort of mileage day-to-day and certainly not whilst I was towing. Oh and of course I have two horses to take around so we'd have to replace the other car with a tow car as well and an additional trailer doubling the environmental impact.

For people buying new there is sense in what you say, but for people all ready set up the environmental impact of changing would be greater than the benefit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fantastic post!

Just hope the government take this into account when legislating against pollution.

 

[mrdarcy]

Interesting post. Should trigger some good debate

There is a lot of crap spouted in the media about cars and their effect on the environment. Truth is that the least environmentally friendly car currently in production is the Toyota Prius - yes the hybrid electric/petrol model that is supposed to be saving the planet...

Personally I think all this 'save our climate' hysteria is way too late and pretty pointless. With India and China developing at an ever increasing rate whatever we in the West do to curb our emissions will be just a tiny drop in the ocean. Nothing we do will make the slightest difference on a global scale. It's time to face facts - and many environmental scientists are starting to come round to this point of view - that it's too late to stop climate change. The immense amount of resources being ploughed into this pointless task would be far better spent on making us more able to adapt to the changes as they happen.

Btw I drive a 4x4 and will continue to do so until I'm dead, bankrupt or living in an igloo...

 

[dieseldog]

Road tax - Just done these 2 today

Car Vauxhall Vectra 1.8 Diesel - £175

7.5t Lorry - £165

It is actually cheaper to tax a lorry than a car

 

[Ferdinase514]

I would much rather have a trailer than a lorry.

BUT my horse will not travel in a trailer. He wont travel facing forwards and that rules out the smaller lorries too.

I've tried and tried to get him to travel facing forwards until he eventually did a lot of damage to himself and the lorry and I gave up and bought a 7.5 ton lorry.

I am all for doing something about climate change but expecting older vehicles to conform to new rules is too much.

 

[Weezy]

I absolutely agree with every word!

 

[SusanFlynn]

or simply run your 4 x 4 / lorry on veggie oil and lower the emission by a staggering 60% and the government who do know about it acknowledge it more. Barnet council use used cooking oil in their council vehicles for 2 reason saving money, less emissions and it is really recycling rather then having to find a way to dispose of this product. They even had a feature on TV showing their use of it and the benifits as well to all concerned.

Top Gear and another motor programme have all tested it, it works.
It isnt new the principle has been around since they designed the diesel engine.

 

[Iestyn]

At the moment there is absolutely no way I would tow with anything less than a 4x4 - even one horse. With another (second horse) on the cards in the future then it would not be possible to tow with an estate or something similar. If it came to the crunch then I would buy a large estate and have a smaller trailer. That would mean that I wouldn't travel as far to compete and I would only be able to take one horse at a time.

Out of interest, where do the Renault Master 3.5t vehicles fall? Always fancied one of these!

 

[RobinHood]

I can see exactly what you are saying about not ingoring climate change but taking today as an example there is no way we could manage without our 4x4. No other vehicle would be able to drive across the waterlogged fields so we could fix water troughs/fencing etc.

Day to day we have an ancient nissan micra and we only use the 4x4 for work in the fields or for towing. We also have a bedford tl 7.5 box which we use if we're taking 3 or more horses somewhere. Yes I suppose we could look into getting a jumbo trailer but why should we fund the manufacture of something don't really need.

I can definitely see the logic in banning high polluting cars from central london but I don't think 4x4 and lorry drivers should be unfairly targetted, especially when a large proportion of them are only in occasional use.

 

[brighteyes]

Hear hear. It's illegal all right. It's not just the weight of the ponies! Tack, haynets, show kit, fuel, butties, kids, dog.......... Oh, and you to drive it! You'd be mad to use anything other than a vehicle designed for the job. Planet friendly or not. Then there's the engine torque required. A saloon hasn't enough 'grunt' to tow up a long, steep hill in a headwind, or pull away from a stop in similar conditions. Tail wags dog?

Anyway, although the argument might just stand for one pony, what if you have two horses?

 

[conniegirl]

I once went to the NCPA championships, a person was pulled over on the hardshoulder of the off ramp of the motorway as she had tried to pull 2 cobs and an old trailer with a saloon car. she had blown her engine going up the off ramp.

Also your tack and water etc is not included in the weight of the car, it is included in the towing weight.

We have a merc 4x4 capable of towing 3.5 tonnes. now weve been weighed (pulled over and weighted on a journey) and we had 2.3 tonnes or there abouts. 2 14hh ponies (weigh approx 1 tonne between the 2) 40litres of water, a new ifor williams 505 (with double doors at the back), and assorted tack and grooming kit. and me and mum.

werem now looking for a 7.5ton box

 

[clipclop]

Surely there must be a way to determine who actually uses their 4 x 4's for a reason and those who have them as a status symbol.
I Can't think of any other reason to have a powerful 4 x 4 unless you are going to go off road or going to tow something heavy!
Have recently looked at another website and the very popular "people carriers" apparently turf out more polution than a lot of the big 4 x 4's. Discovery's, Shoguns etc.
I would much prefer to own a small car and a very small lorry but can't afford to get the very small lorry part!! Oh and I would definately need a tractor to do the work in and around the fields. So I would need 3 vehicles when one can do the same job? Hardly helping the enviroment is it? I will still be using a shed load of fuel!!

My Disco does the same amount of mpg as my Mazda did? Why isn't that type of car on the hit list?

Oh, ignore me I am just rambling. I know costs will go up and I know I will find a way to get around the problem. We always do.

 

[Iestyn]

I don't know why you're saying a Freelander would be illegal in towing a double horse trailer. I had a Freelander and towed a Bayhill double and one 16hh horse. It would not be capable or legal of towing any more though. It's the actual weight that you're towing that's taken into consideration if you're ever pulled over and weighed. Also, why do you say that you're tack and stuff would be taken into the trailer weight? If they're in the car it is included as part of the car and the car's got a GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight) which is the car's kerbweight and the max weight it can carry as part of the car. The vehicle would have a max towing weight which would be the legal weight that vehicle is permitted to tow. Then there is the GTW - Gross Train weight - the maximum outfit weight which would be your GVW plus the max yr allowed to tow. Making sense? The trailer weight or the POTENTIAL weight of the trailer only bcomes an issue for those who passed their test after 1997 and haven't got their B+E (towing licence). For all others the LEGAL towing limit is that stated in the vehicle's handbook - and that is regardless of the Gross Trailer weight (i.e. what the max load of the trailer is). As long as what you are towing is within the max towing limit of the vehicle then you are NOT illegal.] providing you have your B+E.

A Freelander is perfectly capable and LEGAL of towing up to 1800 (or 2000 with a fully laden car). What should be made illegal is people spouting rubbish and scaring others without actually having much of a clue what they're talking about.

 

[magic104]

The best thing for the environment is get rid of people!... Joke
I drive a LPG car which is supposed to be cleaner, so what is wrong with using other types of fuel, why have the government not invested more money into that... could it be that they earn soo much money from the taxes! USA is the biggest waster of energy, what are they doing about it?? We can all do our bit, not sure that doing away with horse lorries & 4x4's is that practical. I suppose, if it came to it we could always get horses going in harness & start using them for going shopping, work etc. Now, that would be good for the environment!

 

[Mid]

There are three people on our road with 4x4s parked outside their houses. These people live in the MIDDLE OF THE CITY. They don't have a speck of mud on the wheels. These people should NOT own LRs. My aunt, however, lives in a valley in cumbria. When you have a foot of mud all summer and a foot of snow all winter, you need a 4x4. She'll have to pay for it, though, same as the city-livers.

We don't have a 4x4, but do have a people carrier. Apparently we'll be taxed for this, even though we can't all fit in a smaller car, and it's illeagal to have kids sharing seat-belts, or in the boot. *shoves sisters into the boot and grins innocently*

 

[Rambo]

Slightly off-topic, but sort of related...

I taxed my lorry on saturday (5.7 litre diesel...averages about 20mpg) and it cost £165 for a year. I thought that sounded quite reasonable as I felt sure I pay nearer £185 for my cars tax disc. So when I got home I checked.....and I was right. My car tax costs me £190 for a years tax.........and it's a bloomin' MINI ! There's got to be something wrong there !

Anyway, back to the original post, and yes, back in the days when I was a kid, my parents used to tow a double trailer (Bahill) with a Renault 20 and latterly a Renault 25....as did loads of other people. Family saloons can tow, but can they do it safely !?

 

[Gingernags]

The two main things I'll pick up on - I know we have to do our bit - but when the UK only accounts for around 2% of global emmissions - unless you get China and the US and other countries on board - it is a total and absolute waste of time.

Also - the govt should crack down on the manufacturers and stop them selling the worst offenders. I've seen loads of ads lately for tiny little 4x4 cars that couldn't tow a blade of grass so where on earth is the point?

Oh I lied - 3 points - we have up here in the North East of England - a biodiesel plant in full operation - yet there are only something like 15 garages in the whole of the north east that sell it, and even then its just a 5% blend added to ordinary diesel. We have had an announcement of a bio-ethanol plant too ("green" petrol) but why isn't the government investing in this - biodiesel and bioethanol - as quickly as possible, whacking the duty down and encouraging people to use it, and getting a far higher blend than 5%? Plus they aren't investing nearly enough in hydrogen powered options - which have ZERO emmisssions

Stop the car producers making really un-economical cars, cut duty on green fuel, encourage people to buy the hybrid cars (not that they are exactly easily available... or cheap!) instead of punishing people who have a damn good reason for a 4x4 like unable to get off a farm lane in winter without - even if we cut our emmissions, any climate change isn't going anywhere in a hurry until the others play nice. Can't see that happening any time soon either...

 

[S_N]

[ QUOTE ]
Stop the car producers making really un-economical cars, cut duty on green fuel, encourage people to buy the hybrid cars (not that they are exactly easily available... or cheap!) instead of punishing people who have a damn good reason for a 4x4 like unable to get off a farm lane in winter without - even if we cut our emmissions, any climate change isn't going anywhere in a hurry until the others play nice. Can't see that happening any time soon either...

[/ QUOTE ]

Here, here!!! *Stands and appluads loudly*

Blimey - I feel like a back bencher