The frog and shoeing

[maggiestar]

Hi everyone, I haver been on here for ages so apologies for popping up with a random question. I was just thinking about horses' frogs today (as you do!) and how they act as a shock absorber to help protect the horse's joints.
Does this mean that shod horses have sore joints? I know there are rubber shoes and I even saw someone on YouTube who puts rubber slippers on hers which look very cute and comfy. Obviously the hoof needs protection when doing road work and I get that riding over stony ground could hurt their feet. I just wondered about the joints if they're wearing iron shoes. Is injury and arthritis more prevalent in shod horses or does it make no difference?
Thanks for any insights or ideas

 

[DabDab]

Not enough long term studies to tell I shouldn't think. Anecdotally I haven't heard of shoddy horses seeming more prone to arthritis, but you never know.

In general joints are quite complex things in terms of what affects them, both positively and negatively. By the same logic of barefoot vs shod, horses that are only ridden on bouncy artificial surfaces should be less prone to arthritis than horses that do a lot of roadwork, but I definitely don't believe that to be the case.

Also, barefoot horses that are sensitive over certain ground can hold a lot of tension through their joints because they're getting an uncomfortable sensation underfoot. I guess if they were doing that regularly then it could affect the joint.

So yeah, hard to say really...I have mine all barefoot though (but am not particularly adverse to putting shoes on if required)

 

[ycbm]

Shock is taken out of the landing by the flexing of joints inside the foot and at the fetlock. That probably has a lot more effect than the rubbery bit of frog.

Having said that, I'm a barefooter and not a fan of adding to the amount of concussion with the weight of shoes unless it's necessary.

.

 

[oldie48]

Absolutely no expert but I think having the foot correctly balanced is more important than whether the foot is shod or not as this will change the forces that the horse has to absorb.

 

[Red-1]

It is the pressure on the frog that translates into the foot, spreads the foot at the heels and dissipates the shock.

There was a wonderful dissection video going round a few years back that showed the mechanism. When used correctly, there is a lot more movement in the foot than you would think.

 

[tallyho!]

The frog helps the foot be flexible laterally so the buttress can literally flex independently of each other - they can't do this in shoes and will often contract and become useless/atrophy.

By allowing that flexion, and allowing the spread, however small - does help the frog and the healthy digital cushion at the back of the foot (and a very important part of it) to absorb shock on impact and allow the navicular tendon to slide properly over the navicular bone and therefore the system works perfectly.

With a "clamp" on (the shoe), this won't be possible so over time, as the frog atrophies and the digital cushion effectively disappearing, the navicular area also contracts and there is less room for then tendon and bone to work together and eventually, this CAN contribute to degeneration of joints and tissue over time.

Dissections have show atrophy of the whole tendon (not sure if available online I've seen them in talks in the UK), when not used properly when compromised by poor farriery. You can see how the weak tendon has a domino effect all the way up.

Whether shod or unshod, a domestic horse has just to be allowed a properly functioning foot and a well "nourished" foot and the whole horse will perform well.

 

[Regandal]

This article explains it quite well. https://ker.com/equinews/concussion-movement-horse/
I don’t shoe as I don’t want to restrict any movement of the frog, but would if the horse was metabolic.

 

[Hack4fun]

A quick browse of the arguments for and against barefoot horses will reveal opinions about the effects of concussion and many other things.

 

[maggiestar]

Thanks everyone, lots of food for thought. I guess horses have been shod since time immemorial and people wouldn't do it if it caused serious harm. As the saying goes, no foot no horse. Or no leg no horse!
I guess it's all about finding a balance and doing what's right for the individual.

 

[Hack4fun]

I guess horses have been shod since time immemorial and people wouldn't do it if it caused serious harm.

I think some would argue that shoeing does do a lot of harm. It is a fascinating subject, and the availability of boots is providing alternatives to those who might only need occasional hoof protection.

 

[Goldenstar]

Bad shoeing regimes do do a lot of harm , poor quality farriers ,owners who leave shoes on too long I have never had a horse who had acceptable foot balance after five weeks in shoes .
Horses turned out for short periods in tiny paddocks , working too much on surfaces
Horses not getting shoeing breaks ,I work on four months out of 12 although sometimes it does go quite like that .
Add in lack of exercise and horses being kept way fatter than they where forty years ago you have loads of thing that cause the type of issues we see .

 

[flying_high]

I think the frog should be large and full snd plump and weight bear as part of each stride, for correct foot mechanism. Whether shoe or barefoot snd the heel bulbs and digital cushion should be plump and full too.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Obviously the hoof needs protection when doing road work and I get that riding over stony ground could hurt their feet.

I'm going to dispute that. Many people have unshod/barefoot horses that do roadwork and can cope with stoney ground without any protection. Some need hoof boots and others need to be shod, but roadwork or stoney ground doesn't mean that shoes are obviously or automatically needed.

When my mare first had her shoes off, smooth tarmac was a very easy and comfortable surface for her.

I guess horses have been shod since time immemorial

From the 5th century according to Wiki.

Xenophon (350bc) recommended keeping your horses on footing of round stones to toughen their hooves.
http://www.comitatus.net/cavalrycanter1.html

 

[ycbm]

I'm going to dispute that. Many people have unshod/barefoot horses that do roadwork and can cope with stoney ground without any protection. Some need hoof boots and others need to be shod, but roadwork or stoney ground doesn't mean that shoes are obviously or automatically needed.

Echo this. My appyx is happy on any surface barefoot, my TB is currently in boots to hack on roads with surface grit/stones. I hope to get the TB out of boots but I'm not going to beat myself up about it if he continues to need them. I actually have a sneaky pleasure in seeing his little trainers 😁


.

 

[DabDab]

I think the vast majority of people (certainly going back 10 years or so) who shoe their horses don't have any particular reason for doing so. They use shoes more out of habit or ease than anything else. Although things are changing somewhat now

 

[Melody Grey]

Another barefooter here. You’d have to give me a damn good reason to shoe, rather than a damn good reason not to nowadays. I think attitudes are slowly changing. I’m in the camp of believing that the vast majority of horses could go barefoot and benefit from it.

 

[ester]

Another point re. rubber shoes/those comfy 'slippers' can cause their own issues due to reduced slip/increased traction depending on the terrain you are covering.

 

[catembi]

Another barefooter here. Steady roadwork is v important to the b/f hoof as it provides the stimulation for growing great quality horn. I used to hack my ID mare 6 km mostly on the roads to a lesson, do an hour's lesson & then hack home. 110% fine. I do roadwork with my QHxTB pretty much every day & the farrier says that it helps him to 'keratinise' and lay down callous (sp? is it 'callus'?) There was a really sad set of pictures on FB somewhere which shows the changes to a bare foot following 3 years of shoeing.

 

[maggiestar]

I think I'm leaning into the shoeless camp having read these replies. The frog is therr for a reason after all..As long as we don't take the pee out of our horses they shouldn't suffer by going native.

 

[honetpot]

I had a NF who’s feet where so boxy that her hooves almost grew straight up. Her frogs where contracted and never touched the floor, even when unshod. I owned her from being a young pony for 20 + years and she was never lame, ever. When she was in full work that included doing PC, Xc an being ridden five times a week.
She broke every rule in the text book, I assume because she had been born like that that the rest of her lower leg confirmation had adjusted to the extra stresses , so I wonder how much the frog actually does.

 

[tallyho!]

Sensible and pragmatic reply.

It would be good for you to see if you can borrow/buy some literature on bf or research online as you embark on your bf “journey”. It is a journey for some but for others it’s an easy transition x

 

[tristar]

my experience is that any farrier that cuts the frog caused actual lameness , i have seen farriers cut most of the frog away, we tidy a few stray wispy bits and our farrier says he never trims a frog and rarely sole

we interfere with nature at our peril, and can shoes hide symptoms

 

[Kat]

People may have been putting shoes on horses for centuries but often this was because horses had a commercial purpose so needed to cover long distances without having time off and living conditions were less than ideal. Shoes are effectively a sticking plaster, but the effects can eventually damage the feet.

The majority of leisure horses with the benefit of modern understanding of feed and the availability of boots could be managed without shoes if their owners were willing to invest the time and energy in understanding barefoot management.

You only have to check out the hunting miles some of the Rockley Farm horses do to see what barefeet can cope with. My own horse hunts barefoot although not every week.

Those who want or need to shoe they would do well to heed the advice given by Goldenstar above to keep them sound longterm in shoes.