The "frog-dog"

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noodle_

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Following on from my puppy at the vets post....

This is my little froggie-doggie Max.... who sits and hops like a frog (hence name)!

His front legs are the current issue as can see below they spread out and are at a funny angle...he's on 30 mins twice a day walks (on lead)! which is driving him batty - no free play in the house with his "mum" (my other dog)....luckily he dosent mind this and kips most of the day :) He's also on anti- inflams and joint supplements (vet reccomended)...

The vet has said he wants to see him again in a month and if no improvement he will need a CT scan to investigate further....

But was just wondering if anyone had know of/has a dog with the same front leg issues as Max?? and how were they fixed?


note - his back legs have splayed more than normal due to the floor!!.... so it does look really bad...he does sit like a frog but not as bad as that!!! :D


IMG_2740.jpg
 
Crikey! I wasn't expecting that TBH.

You've probably seen pics of my pup when he was younger, he had very loooong pasterns and it is a common problem in some lines/especially American showline dogs.

For my dog it does not cause any physical pain, nor did it his father from who he inherited them, but they do require work to keep them straight, they have improved vastly with sand work and lots of swimming.
He was very east-west too but that has also improved with exercise and maturity.

What does the vet actually say it is?
 
I was hoping you would reply CC :)

he's a happy little chappy!.... tail never stops wagging... but he is obviously a little ermmm deformed?!

I figured it was max being max... and just the way he was but apparantly not - the vet isnt too concerned about his hips yet - as you all said before hips come with maturity? and he basically said the same - they may go worse/stay the same etc - time will tell

im happy with what the vets have said re his hips...as he does waddle (other than frog dog he is known as Maxi wigglebum as his tail/bum never stops wagging and waddling!!)

He dsent seem in pain - but vet said he's definately sore... he's on a green lip mussle supplement as well as anti-inflams - older dog who also has HD (diff breed)!, is also on the mussle stuff and cartrofen

Im going to ask about hydrotherapy? i dont know woudl it help right now?

Vets specificall said one leg bone (radius/ulna? one of!!) is growing too quickily... if ive got that wrong im sorry - but one of the bones in his legs is growing too quickly.
 
I've never done formal hydro, we live beside the sea/rivers so the dogs are in the water from an early age and I use waterproof balls/fetch to get them swimming, the older dogs used to go to a horse pool twice a week and I just used to swim them in circles.

As I said before, there's no real point in x-raying hips until 12 months, you can get prelims done whenever but they will not always be a true reflection on how they will look as an adult. The waddling could be something and nothing.
 
My boy has hydrotherapy as my vet has the equipment on site. I'm sorry I can't say if it would help yours as mine has it to help his very old joints (he's 18)

He's doing well and it certainly does seem to help with his mobility.
 
18! what an age :) what breed?

yes my older dog loves hyrdo - ive no idea why we stopped going to be honest :o !!

will get her booked in again i think as she loved it and ring the referal vets and ask about the younger one!

both being spaniels love water :D
 
No real advice to offer, but agree it is worth asking the vet if hydrotherapy would help. I had a JRT with "Queen Anne" front legs like that, but it is quite common in the breed and never caused her a problem. Hopefully you have caught it early enough with Max and you will see an improvement soon.
 
Thanks :)

i really thought it was puppy growing as thy do tend to look out of proportion but it didnt cross my mind it was an issue

I asked him to sit on a mat tonight to see if the floor thing truly made a different with slipping.... apparantly not!

he sat - and then pushed his legs out....but im also using this as a little bit of a "puppy sit"....

as they do sit rather strangely at that age dont they!?
 
O_P,

As you say, the shiny floor would account for his back legs, though it's strange that he finds the position comfortable.

Of greater concern, would be not only his metatarsals, but their connection to his leg, and the curious angle at which they sit. Is there any chance of a clear confo and sideways shot of just his front legs, with him standing as square as he can?

Also;

How old is Max?

How is he bred?

What has his puppy diet consisted of?

As the advice which you've received, I would restrict his "activities", dependent upon his age, and if he's still growing, I would reduce his protein intake, drastically, unless he's over 10 months. If he's now grown, then his diet is unlikely to be affecting him.

I'll agree, his front looks a bit concerning, but if he's not expected to live a hectic working life, once he's settled, then he should be OK.

Do please keep us informed as to how Max progresses.

Alec.
 
Thanks for the reply Alec

I did more pictures of him siting on a mat and he sits EXACTLY the same... so i was wrong... the floor makes no odds...he finds it easier to sit like that!

He's 7 months now....i notice him a bit "odd " at 5 months - i was going to get his hips done when he was neutered but decided not too as i figured i was overreacting..

He's working cocker lines (although looks remarkably field spaniel like lol)...his parents both work.... I dont know his actual linespurely as i have no interestin working - he is meant to be an agility dog (retired before he started)!

Would be nice if he could do some low level agility., as expected he is a smart dog and likes to work (and swim :/ )!

pics - yes I took more - soon as photobucket behaves I will upload them for you.... :)
 
noodle_ said:
Following on from my puppy at the vets post....

This is my little froggie-doggie Max.... who sits and hops like a frog (hence name)!

His front legs are the current issue as can see below they spread out and are at a funny angle...he's on 30 mins twice a day walks (on lead)! which is driving him batty - no free play in the house with his "mum" (my other dog)....luckily he dosent mind this and kips most of the day :) He's also on anti- inflams and joint supplements (vet reccomended)...

The vet has said he wants to see him again in a month and if no improvement he will need a CT scan to investigate further....

But was just wondering if anyone had know of/has a dog with the same front leg issues as Max?? and how were they fixed?



note - his back legs have splayed more than normal due to the floor!!.... so it does look really bad...he does sit like a frog but not as bad as that!!! :D


IMG_2740.jpg
Click to expand...

His front legs look like he may have what we call an Angular limb deformity and the history does match in with whats expected.You might have seen foals with it?Its more common in horses than dogs.
It can be considered within the breed standard and "normal"in some breeds leading to that bow legged appearence..Bassets some JRT's etc.
Its not normal in a spaniel so you are right t be concerned.

There are a number of causes....bones not growing at proportional rates..i.e so the ulna ending up longer than the radius or vice versa,problems with the growth plates,damage or trauma to the long bones or plates, nutritional issues (rare!so dont worry to much about that one)

There are a number of different treatments,mainly surgical,but treatments all depend on the underlying cause,which can sometimes be difficult to figure out, as well as the severity of the issue and age of the dog... pups have different treatments versus adults etc .

Id wait and see like your vet said, but be aware than it may require some intervention in the future.

Weightfree exercise like swimming/hydrotherapy would be a good way to go if you need to tire him out (for yours and his sanity :P ) as you wouldn't be putting as much pressure and concussive forces on his legs.
 
Thank you Aru

Im assumingg your a vet? :)

he's back in a month for a check up and possibly CT and if needby an op....

The vet says judging by the x-rays the bones ulna/radius (one of??) is growing too quickily... im not pretending i knew what he was on about as i was too busy comforting my winey dog :D

He eats Beta adult now.... and on a mussle supplement/anti inflams - any other reccomendations id appreciate
:)

he's a fab little dog so whatever he needs he will get -if he needs an op, im rather hoping he can wait until Jan as i can get time off work easier to spend time with him
 
Alec.....


square as a 7 month ld can get! :D


maxistand.jpg



"normal" sit......on a mat to stop sliding

IMG_2758.jpg





5 months old

IMG_2510.jpg




will dig out some puppy pics if i have any of his legs - as i honestly never noticed before as i thought it was a "max" thing
 
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noodle_ said:
Thank you Aru

Im assumingg your a vet? :)

he's back in a month for a check up and possibly CT and if needby an op....

The vet says judging by the x-rays the bones ulna/radius (one of??) is growing too quickily... im not pretending i knew what he was on about as i was too busy comforting my winey dog :D

He eats Beta adult now.... and on a mussle supplement/anti inflams - any other reccomendations id appreciate
:)

he's a fab little dog so whatever he needs he will get -if he needs an op, im rather hoping he can wait until Jan as i can get time off work easier to spend time with him
Click to expand...

I'm a vet alright.

In basic terms...it sounds like your lad has an issue where one bone is growing faster than the other in his front leg(legs by the look of the photo) .This is upsetting the balance within the elbow joint where both of those bones are ment to meet in a specific way and communicate with the upper limb.
So as a result the leg is bending in towards the midline of the dog and the legs are being forced to adjust the incorrect forces and weight distribution coming through the elbow. This forces muscles tendon's etc to stretch/tighten,depending on where they are, in adjustment.This pulls the limb out of a normal shape into a shape that he can use with the body he has.

It can be painful,generally its well tolerated as the dog has adjusted to some degree and is used to it, but the muscles tendons and bones are all off the natural course so not ideal as you can imagine. So the antiinflammatories green mussel etc should help control that.

Jumping,running etc where the front legs are put under high force loads can put more pressure on an out of kilter joint and can cause more discomfort or damage ie fractures within the elbow at vunerable points. So hooning about should unfortunately be avoided. Thats why the swimming can be good in these cases very low impact exercise so less likely to do harm..

Hope that helps you have a better idea about whats going on...

I am by no means an orthopedic specialist btw just trying to be helpful and obviously your own vet will know the situation much better.
 
Thank you Aru - really appreciate the explanation :) :)

He did say possible elbow problems which is clearer now you have explained that


question.... im going to stick my neck out and say he will need surgery right?? I cant see how the bones will put themselves right without intervention? but im no vet! just a uneducated owner, so may be totally assuming wrong with that

Is there no casts he can have on his legs to straighten themwithout surgery?

Again thank you.. :) Will ring my referal vets tomorow and check he' fine to go swimming properly as i need them to okay it on the form anyhow - i cant see why not! and get him swimming once a week minimum :)

its £25 an hour here (30 mins swim time, 30 mins dry off time) for 2 dogs so they can go twice a week if they are allowed

older dog has HD too who im refering too! but shes just stiff but fine in herself just crefult exercise! i have no luck!!
 
noodle_ said:
Thank you Aru - really appreciate the explanation :) :)

He did say possible elbow problems which is clearer now you have explained that


question.... im going to stick my neck out and say he will need surgery right?? I cant see how the bones will put themselves right without intervention? but im no vet! just a uneducated owner, so may be totally assuming wrong with that

Is there no casts he can have on his legs to straighten themwithout surgery?

Again thank you.. :) Will ring my referal vets tomorow and check he' fine to go swimming properly as i need them to okay it on the form anyhow - i cant see why not! and get him swimming once a week minimum :)

its £25 an hour here (30 mins swim time, 30 mins dry off time) for 2 dogs so they can go twice a week if they are allowed

older dog has HD too who im refering too! but shes just stiff but fine in herself just crefult exercise! i have no luck!!
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Honestly Noodle I dont know if he will need surgery or not. I would guess yes but I could be completely wrong.

It depends on a lot of things.. what hes like in himself,the degree of changes that have gone on in the limbs,what changes can be seen on xray/ct etc the age that he is and the growth plates may play a factor..lots of different things I'm afraid......so its something that only the vet in charge of the case will know.

Plus to be completely honest its too specialist of stuff for me I'm afraid :P
I do GP work so I can recognise and understand the problem.Plus have an knowledge of most of the potential surgeries involved but only on a basic understanding level rather than the precise requirements. Its a orthopedic specialists area I'm afraid.
That said I havent heard of casting being used to treat these issues I'm afraid.
 
thats fair enough i appreciate your honesty :)

im thinking worse case (surgery) so if its a case of no surgery then brilliant.... i truly do not want a 7 month old going through surgery,,,(i know if he needs it though then fine)!


He's a happy little chap though regardless and very naughty! because everyone feels sorry for him he gets away with murder :D :D :D
 
Noodle_, thanks for the additional pics. Now I am NOT a vet, just an interested bystander. There have been some interesting observations from Aru, and qualified too!

The sideways shot, shows quite clearly, that his shoulders are considerably lower, than his hips, as if to point out that his front legs haven't really achieved the necessary length. I expected to see him very "Down" on his pasterns, but he isn't that bad, in that they're not collapsed. If the major and supporting bones in his legs, in a paired sense, have grown at a different rate to their companion bone, then perhaps the bowing is whats responsible for the current and quite marked "turn" in his feet.

He also seems to have rather exaggerated growth plates (unless it's just the pic, or me!) and I wonder why this should be. I'm surprised to hear from Aru that the problem is unlikely to be protein related, specifically with these growth plates, though I'd agree that the apparent deformity is probably genetic. That would imply that there are two separate, though inter-dependant, problems.

During the '70s and 80's, because Working Cockers were such a nightmare to handle, and only the most experienced, would take them on, so the gene pool shrank, drastically. A few, used outcrosses, often with Springers and Setters, to firstly make them a little more bid-able, secondly to increase there generally woeful stamina levels, and lastly to widen that pool of availability. There is today one line of working cockers that has stayed faithful to the pure and concise. I have two puppies from this line, litter sisters, and one has a slightly cabriolet front, and the other, a slightly shot jaw. Amongst the serious trial boys, the debate is furious, to the point of serious enmity! Anyway, that's why I asked how Max is bred.

To a further post, I wouldn't think that casts could be put on growing legs, though I don't know, and if the deformity is because of a congenital weakness, then I also wonder how surgery would succeed, though if it were to, then now would be the time, whilst he has room to grow through it, perhaps. Again, I'm not a vet, so I'm not in a position to contradict those who are!! I'm also more than happy to be wrong.

The only thing that I would say, with a bit more certainty, is that at 7 months, he still has a bit more growing to do. There appears to have been a deterioration from 5 to 7 months, and it can only be assumed that this will continue. I'd whole-heartedly agree with those who say that his exercise should be restricted. Crashing about, as cockers do, wont help, and will only make matters worse.

Will you keep us abreast of Max's progress? I for one, would be very interested to learn how his life proceeds. Good luck.

Alec.

Editing to add, the rather curious seated position of his back legs, has largely been ignored, whilst concentrating on his fronts. Has your vet, or anyone else, offered the opinion that there may be a correlation between the two? a.
 
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the only thing that i can add to the previous posts is: i would invest in some mats/carpet to cover the hard floors. i would worry that walking on the hard floors would be adding to the strain on his joints. ;)

Hope he comes right without too much trouble. ;)
 
I bred a labrador who mis developed like this,in his case they had fed a cheap adult complete to a young growing puppy.He was operated on,but it achieved nothing.They then rehomed him,how I wish they had never had that puppy!
 
Alec Swan said:
Noodle_, thanks for the additional pics. Now I am NOT a vet, just an interested bystander. There have been some interesting observations from Aru, and qualified too!

The sideways shot, shows quite clearly, that his shoulders are considerably lower, than his hips, as if to point out that his front legs haven't really achieved the necessary length. I expected to see him very "Down" on his pasterns, but he isn't that bad, in that they're not collapsed. If the major and supporting bones in his legs, in a paired sense, have grown at a different rate to their companion bone, then perhaps the bowing is whats responsible for the current and quite marked "turn" in his feet.

He also seems to have rather exaggerated growth plates (unless it's just the pic, or me!) and I wonder why this should be. I'm surprised to hear from Aru that the problem is unlikely to be protein related, specifically with these growth plates, though I'd agree that the apparent deformity is probably genetic. That would imply that there are two separate, though inter-dependant, problems.

During the '70s and 80's, because Working Cockers were such a nightmare to handle, and only the most experienced, would take them on, so the gene pool shrank, drastically. A few, used outcrosses, often with Springers and Setters, to firstly make them a little more bid-able, secondly to increase there generally woeful stamina levels, and lastly to widen that pool of availability. There is today one line of working cockers that has stayed faithful to the pure and concise. I have two puppies from this line, litter sisters, and one has a slightly cabriolet front, and the other, a slightly shot jaw. Amongst the serious trial boys, the debate is furious, to the point of serious enmity! Anyway, that's why I asked how Max is bred.

To a further post, I wouldn't think that casts could be put on growing legs, though I don't know, and if the deformity is because of a congenital weakness, then I also wonder how surgery would succeed, though if it were to, then now would be the time, whilst he has room to grow through it, perhaps. Again, I'm not a vet, so I'm not in a position to contradict those who are!! I'm also more than happy to be wrong.

The only thing that I would say, with a bit more certainty, is that at 7 months, he still has a bit more growing to do. There appears to have been a deterioration from 5 to 7 months, and it can only be assumed that this will continue. I'd whole-heartedly agree with those who say that his exercise should be restricted. Crashing about, as cockers do, wont help, and will only make matters worse.

Will you keep us abreast of Max's progress? I for one, would be very interested to learn how his life proceeds. Good luck.

Alec.

Editing to add, the rather curious seated position of his back legs, has largely been ignored, whilst concentrating on his fronts. Has your vet, or anyone else, offered the opinion that there may be a correlation between the two? a.
Click to expand...

Thanks Alec

I know most people (except Aru) are not vets and i was asking purely because i wanted outsider opinions as well as vets opinions :)

His back - he has Hip dysplasia but very difficult to like the vet said do anything about for now as its not as big a problem as his fronts...he is mildly lame behind but that may be just his gait?

Mabey a walking video would be beneficial just to see the extent of his walk/ "trot" and his "canter" gait is his hoppy one... (sorry im still in horse mode thats also how i describe my dogs lol)!

He's on restricted exercise in regards to walking on lead only which is thoroughly pissing him off as expected...so he's now in a halti as for a little dude - my god he's strong!!....

I walk him personally mostly on the grass/fields - beneficial to other dog to go for a run/chase things while i do several laps of the field - i dont believe in pounding joints at a young age or even older to be honest....

We do lead walk on roads when its dark nights and we have no other choice however those walks are kept as short as possible and luckily i work evenings so i have my daytimes to take them on soft surfaces.... id rather get him covered in mud than have worse joints.... btu dont get me wrong we do do pavement work - but never pound them.

His feed - he eats BETA - we have fed this for years.... never had a problem on it at all with any of our dogs (working collies), all looked incredibly well. He also has toast and butter in a morning for his coat (which you cant see from the pics is very nice and shiny)! :)

Yes I will update regularly - im doing regular pictures and will do a blog as id really love to see an improvement even if its months before we see a difference but im doing pictures every tuesday! (my day off lol)! and will keep a track of them...

i cant find any pictures of him as a puppy standing (no surprise really as they dont stay still!) but when we got him it was summer and generally tended to play on the garden/grass than be walked a ton on pavements - i normally throw them in the car and go to the canal/grass fields as i find this for myself too more enjoyable - i hate walking on roads :)

EAST KENT said:
I bred a labrador who mis developed like this,in his case they had fed a cheap adult complete to a young growing puppy.He was operated on,but it achieved nothing.They then rehomed him,how I wish they had never had that puppy!
Click to expand...


What happened to the pup? did his legs improve?

whisp&willow said:
the only thing that i can add to the previous posts is: i would invest in some mats/carpet to cover the hard floors. i would worry that walking on the hard floors would be adding to the strain on his joints. ;)

Hope he comes right without too much trouble. ;)
Click to expand...



Thanks - carpets are not an option im afraid - a rug could be :)

our lounge is onto the garden and carpets would smell and look discusting in 2 minutes - hence wooden floors :)

but will look into a thick rug for him :)

just to say though.....he has access to 2 beds (2 dogs) and 2 sofas :D he's spoilt and knows it! he has nice comforts :D
 
weekly frog dog update :)

well this week we are rocking the devil dog look!!.... :D its been horrid here raining and nasty and its really dark.... so hence the evil look


We have been doing our walks/vet tablets and generally pampering him.... he's found amusement in hyde chews which are his new best friends....

He's been paddling (on lead).... Max is now in a halti on a walk full time as hes flipping strong for a little dog!!!!! :D :D

IMG_2848.jpg



as still as i can get him to stand up on my own!!

IMG_2852.jpg




And having as much fun as he can on lead!... he's stopped sulking as much now :D

IMG_2824.jpg



next week is our final leg-update before he;s back at dogpital.... :) Then I will get the real version of what's next... he's a happy chappy in himself so hopefullly something simple :)

Thanks for reading - comments welcome :)
 
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