teagreen
Well-Known Member
Over2You - if racing is banned, like you so wish, what do you suggest we do with the horses, from foals to stallions at stud?
The Grand National :D
- Thread starter BlizzardBudd
- Start date
Elf On A Shelf
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Do you seriously think that those horses will be forgotton?!?! If you looked after one of those horses every single day (sadly 2 on that damned list I did look after and another from our yard) Do you really think we could ever, ever forget them? What about their owners? WHat about their trainers? You really are a small minded person to suggest that none of us care about our charges!
As for refusing to race - Chaninbar did it 2 days in a row at Aintree and once at the Cheltenham Festival - he really was adamant he was going no where but home. There was also a very, very good mare whose owners retired her from flat racing last year as 3 times she entered the stalls and stood stock still whilst everyone else streamed off. I have lead horses down to the start who have refused to race. It's not fear, it's not "spooking at something" its downright stubborness and there is not a jot we can do about it.
As for accidents in dressage - they are never reported so no one hears of them though I am sure that they do happen. Endurance - again you never hear just how many horses may have died or collapsed through heat exhaustion. As for no vet checks at the races - pah! Shows just how little you know about racing! Every horse that walks into the stable yard is given a glance over by a vet, if they have reason to fault it they will ask you to trot up. If a horse is seen as being lame going to the start they will most certainly be thoroughly looked at before being allowed to either race or be sent back to the stables. After race care - again every horse is glanced over by a vet and if they have cause for concern they make it known. I can assure you we stable staff forget a damned sight more about how to look after our athletes than you could ever learn in 3 lifetimes.
As for horses going to slaughter houses - would you rather that they were left dumped in a field to fend for themselves? Some are not suitable to be retrained. Some go on to be broodmares or stallions if their ability or bloodlines are good enough. A lot do get rehomed. At least owners are being responsible for their horses rather than let them go to wrack and ruin.
Elf On A Shelf
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Also if eventing is a lot safer than racing how is that any old idiot can do it? Racing is a professional sport. You have to go through a rigorous exam process before you can gain your licence to train horses. Much of the knowledge that is needed to get this comes from YEARS of experience in the racing game. Jockeys have to pass tough physical tests as well as pass assessments on their riding ability. For every fall they have to consult the doctor before being allowed to ride again, every year they have to pass a concussion test. If they do get concussed in a race then they are stood down for a minimum of 3 days before having to sit a concussion test. What about eventers? What exams do you have to go through to be allowed out onto the course?
Sorry, I am most certainly not implying that all eventers are idiots or suggesting that none of you train your horses to the required level that you wish to comnpete at. Only a few.
Sorry, I am most certainly not implying that all eventers are idiots or suggesting that none of you train your horses to the required level that you wish to comnpete at. Only a few.
AMH
Well-Known Member
Totally with EKW. It's an insult to suggest that no-one cares about racehorses. I've been on a very large jumps yard and seen the absolutely individual care each horse receives. If only every horse was maintained as well. I don't suggest all trainers are ad diligent, but neither is it true they're all unfeeling and uncaring.
It's a shame we couldn't keep this rational - I'd have more respect for your point of view, Over2You, if it wasn't punctuated with insults about people's spelling. This is a very emotive subject, understood, but no need to get personal...
It's a shame we couldn't keep this rational - I'd have more respect for your point of view, Over2You, if it wasn't punctuated with insults about people's spelling. This is a very emotive subject, understood, but no need to get personal...
naid pollyanna
Well-Known Member
now this is in no means a lecture because some people do like racing and others dont, i myself do not like the grand national and i think anyone with the knowledge of a jump race horses life from the age of about two would agree :/ two horses died again just like last year and i bet we will soon find out just how many needed oxygen after the race(is that really how a horses life should be?-running in a giant oval/circle then jumping huge jumps to at the end have freezing water poured over them with an oxygen mask on to then be transported home and begin training again in a few day or what ever?)
its up to you whether to support the extremely difficult and dangerous race because know one else can do it for you but just think next time you watch a race that out of nearly 200 foals born to race only around 50 make it to the track as the 150 will have broken or injured a bone at two years old training
its up to you whether to support the extremely difficult and dangerous race because know one else can do it for you but just think next time you watch a race that out of nearly 200 foals born to race only around 50 make it to the track as the 150 will have broken or injured a bone at two years old training
Elf On A Shelf
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Most horses that race in the Grand National will have not started their racing careers until they were 4 years old at least. Some won't have even been broken till they were 4 or 5 depending upon how strong they were at that age. Horses that race on the flat at 2years old are bred for speed not stamina. If these horses go jumping then they will more than likely stay to 2 mile races and normally hurdles as they are of smaller stature and lighter build. There are some that buck the trend and go further but not many.
teagreen
Well-Known Member
now this is in no means a lecture because some people do like racing and others dont, i myself do not like the grand national and i think anyone with the knowledge of a jump race horses life from the age of about two would agree :/ two horses died again just like last year and i bet we will soon find out just how many needed oxygen after the race(is that really how a horses life should be?-running in a giant oval/circle then jumping huge jumps to at the end have freezing water poured over them with an oxygen mask on to then be transported home and begin training again in a few day or what ever?)
its up to you whether to support the extremely difficult and dangerous race because know one else can do it for you but just think next time you watch a race that out of nearly 200 foals born to race only around 50 make it to the track as the 150 will have broken or injured a bone at two years old training
a) Jumps horses are not started at 2 years old.
b) Should a horses be about running in a giant circle? Should a horses life be about jumping multi-coloured poles all the time? Think about Totilas - should his life be spent in a stable then taken out for an hour each day to do sideways movements? Should horses be ridden at all, under that logic?
c) Horses die in all types of racing, not just in the Grand National. A horse died a Towcester yesterday. Did anyone mention him (except the person who asked about him on here)? Nope. 2 horses died at other tracks the same day as the National. Did anyone mention them? Nope.
d) Think of all the welsh pony foals who meet the same fate. Overbreeding is not exclusive to racing.
e) I have a knowledge of jump horses lives. I think they live extremely good lives, and better ones than many horses in Britain.
naid pollyanna
Well-Known Member
but on the other hand i know that for the majority of race horses there treatment is top notch 
because who wouldnt care for a horse that pays for there living theses horses do not live on a one to one basis im guessing with thier owners and they only get the best but when it comes down to this particular race theres nothing the owner or carers of the horse can do to help it and even the jockeys to some extent cant help it explaining the amount of deaths, but to people who havent seen thier day to day stable lives or are not aware of anyone with race horses then they wont know this i only agree with racing and the race horses when i know they are fairly treated at home and at the race track 
xx so well done to thoses who finished the race healthy and also rest in peace those who died for trying their best well done!
because who wouldnt care for a horse that pays for there living theses horses do not live on a one to one basis im guessing with thier owners and they only get the best but when it comes down to this particular race theres nothing the owner or carers of the horse can do to help it and even the jockeys to some extent cant help it explaining the amount of deaths, but to people who havent seen thier day to day stable lives or are not aware of anyone with race horses then they wont know this i only agree with racing and the race horses when i know they are fairly treated at home and at the race track xx so well done to thoses who finished the race healthy and also rest in peace those who died for trying their best well done!naid pollyanna
Well-Known Member
i completely agree because i can only go on what you hear on horse news chanels on tv and in magasines about horses
totilas does actually go out in the field aswell as a stable but like many racehorses is also woth a lot of money and is someones living they cant afford to have him injured again like many race horses, also totilas does get to do other things at home like pop a few jumps as many dressage horse including himself seem to enjoy that, i used to live just down the road from harvey smith and his grand national horses and from what i saw from them they were ridden lovely, they looked healthy but he did not care one bit at times but then other days he only wanted the best like many other sport horse owners. i was not specifically noting racing as a bad/dangerous sport alone as this goes for nearly all horse sports but thats all we were talking about on here :/
sory if i offended anyone in anyway who is far more knowledgable about this sport than i :/
minesadouble
Well-Known Member
Apologies if this has been said before BUT do many people think this debate would still be raging if those two tragic deaths had occured on the second circuit rather than the first???
Because I certainly don't
Because I certainly don't
Elf On A Shelf
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Or indeed if the bodies had been removed from the track. I could explain how this is done in detail if you so wish but it may make you empty your stomach
lcsd114
Member
I agree. If the fatalities had happened on second circuit, there would have been no footage of the tarp covered horse or the screens around Dooneys Gate. They may have mentioned them during the rerun but it would not nearly have been as big.
I hate to knock the safety procedures at Aintree and I understand that it was done for the sake of the rest of the field but, the unfortunate, unexpected, side effect was that the deaths were highlighted during the race and that made the story blow up much more than it would have.
I agree with previous posters in this and other threads. NH is a sport with risks, which are fully appreciated by the owners and all the connections of these horses. It doesn't mean that they don't care about them, they just accept the consequences if the worst happens.
The GN is a little more risky because of the size of the fences and the length of the race but it's not like the connections don't know that. They train the horses and (hopefully) get them fit enough and good enough at racing to get round. If they have not done this, you cannot blame the race or the course, you have to place blame on the owners who put the thought of winning the big prize and glory above the well-being of the horse. On the other hand, sometimes accidents just happen during a race and there's nothing the owner, trainer or jockey can do to prevent them.
I have been a GN fanatic since I was a little girl (and still dream of having the rush of riding in the race, just for the tremendous feeling you'd get) so this backlash upsets me but I have seen it before and it'll quiet down as soon as people move on to the next cause and the race will be back next year as usual, I truly believe that.
lcsd114
Member
I just rewatched the 1987 GN online. (Maori Venture, my second winner, yay!) I watched that one in particular because of Dark Ivy and I have a couple of comments/observations.
1) Dark Ivy was killed immediately @ Bechers the first time round and they had time to move him off of the course before they got there the second time. Why were they unable to do that this year with Ornais, who also died instantly? I understand that Dooneys Gate may have been more difficuly because of his injury and the possibility of a jockey being injured there too, though I still don't really get why they had to skip either fence, especially the 4th.
2) To get away from the subject of the injuries/fatalities altogether, the BBC coverage lacked the best camera angles this year. No head on shot of Bechers. No shot of the Canal Turn from the right side, pointing up the course towards Valentines. The shot of the elbow was a different angle, taking away from the drama of the long run-in. I really don't like that. Is it because other networks have cameras there now?
3) Who misses Peter O'Sullevan's commentary? For me, he is the voice of the National. I know he had to retire but he left a big void IMO.
1) Dark Ivy was killed immediately @ Bechers the first time round and they had time to move him off of the course before they got there the second time. Why were they unable to do that this year with Ornais, who also died instantly? I understand that Dooneys Gate may have been more difficuly because of his injury and the possibility of a jockey being injured there too, though I still don't really get why they had to skip either fence, especially the 4th.
2) To get away from the subject of the injuries/fatalities altogether, the BBC coverage lacked the best camera angles this year. No head on shot of Bechers. No shot of the Canal Turn from the right side, pointing up the course towards Valentines. The shot of the elbow was a different angle, taking away from the drama of the long run-in. I really don't like that. Is it because other networks have cameras there now?
3) Who misses Peter O'Sullevan's commentary? For me, he is the voice of the National. I know he had to retire but he left a big void IMO.
Elf On A Shelf
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To be honest I think they missed it just to prove that they now could. They have always removed dead horses before and if a horse or jockey was still down then they would doll off an area and get the horses to jump past on the safest side.
Starbucks
Well-Known Member
No, but SOME have a life where a hack is a rarity and turn out is non existent, they have a life stuck in the stable and then in the school made to do movements, which lets face it, do not come natural to a horse, not in the same way galloping and jumping does. Is that so much better?
Not having a go at dressage people by the way, just pointing out that the life of a lot of dressage horses is hardly ideal!
Over2You
Well-Known Member
I jolly well think it would still be getting debated since TWO HORSES DIED needless and senseless deaths!! You racing supporters continually try to justify these deaths by saying they were doing something they loved. That other horse sports have their elements of cruelty too. Then also say the horses were loved by their owners, trainers, etc. I am sorry, but there is no way in hell that those 'horse lovers' would put their animals in such races knowing there was a bloody good chance they would not be returning home. ANY horse can die on track. It does not matter if they are in their first race or been doing it for years. One Man is an excellent example of the latter. As are Lanzarote and Noddy's Ryde. Not to mention the countless other greats who perish during races.
Over2You
Well-Known Member
I do not agree either with the some of the ways in which other sport horses are kept, but they are NOT put at such a high risk during competition!! They are NOT raced at break-neck speeds, then asked to jump enormous obstacles.They are NOT put under so much stress that they need oxygen at the end of their rounds. No other horse sport is as cruel as that. NONE!!
Elf On A Shelf
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If racehorse owners and trainers don't love their horses and put them at risk by racing them why then do eventers continually put their horses at risk going cross country? Do they also not give a fig for their horses? How many dressage horses have obtained stress fractures or broken pelvis's because they have been pushed to be doing movements that they are not designed to do? How any of these horse, and the same could be said for showing, have broken wind pipes by having their heads head in unnatural positions?
Come on now, you really are fighting a losing argument.
Come on now, you really are fighting a losing argument.
Elf On A Shelf
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No they are asked to compete on brick solid ground that any sensible person would avoid. Racing waters it's tracks to provide good racing ground, they always have plenty of grass coverage to add a bit of bounce and all the divets made by hooves are stomped back in between each and every race.
Spinal Tap
Well-Known Member
I have seen jump racing meetings in summer where the going is advertised as 'firm' or 'hard', so I don't accept that point at all. Many eventing tracks get aggravated if the going is too firm. Do you remember Badminton a couple of years back where the course was considered to be too firm? There were mass withdrawals and the organisers got heavily criticised.
Back to the Grand National - I think I'm right in saying that there are horse fatalities more often than not, certainly 2 deaths is far from unprecedented. In a field of 40 that's not good odds. However well ridden and capable the horse is, the risk of it getting brought down doesn't go away. I know you can say the same for any race but the risk of equine death in the GN is not fanciful, it's factual and substantial. I can't understand how a caring owner can risk their horse like that.
AMH
Well-Known Member
And ANY horse can die eventing. Any eventing rider can get a stride wrong, that's why even the professionals fall off. And just last year, Louisa Lockwood lost a horse on the course at Badminton, not to mention all the human fatalities there have been in eventing over the past few years, some seasoned professionals. This is the risk we take in all forms of horse sport. Eventers don't have a leg to stand on when trying to argue against horse racing. The natural conclusion to your argument is that we should ban jump racing. And there are over 5,000 jump horses and hunter chasers in training in the UK. So what happens to them? Because the vast majority DON'T die on the track, and not everyone wants a retrained racehorse.
Elf On A Shelf
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The term 'hard' isn't used in racing in this country. And I think you will find that 95% of summer meetings will water the tracks so they get good, food to firm, firm in places at the most. They won't run on purely firm or fast ground. There is always a very good coverage of grass (except at Towcester, they need to get that sorted) so there is always a bit of bounce. Tight bends are sanded for grip in the summer as well. From the xc courses I have seen none if them have had very good grass coverage and the take offs and landings are rock solid mud patches. Racecourses protect and nourish their tracks to the point of ocd. I have never seen an xc course that has been looked after half as well.
Caledonia
Well-Known Member
In response to whoever it was said on the other closed thread that neither Dooney's Gate or Ornais should have been in the field, here's their form record.
DOONEY'S GATE - last three runs previous to Aintree were 4th in the Topham over the same fences same meeting last year, then 4th in a Grade A Handicap chase at Leopardstown in Jan this year, then 1st in a handicap chase at Clonmel in February this year.
His OR rating was 154, higher than ALL those that finished the National this year, bar last year's winner, Don't Push It.
ORNAIS - he won over 3m at Cheltenham in November 2008 in a graduation chase beating the horse that was 5th in this year's National, Niche Market. He then pulled up lame in a Grade 1, and was given over 2 years off, so they had done the job right for repair.
He was brought back in 2 hunter chases, and was returning to form. He was on a mark of 140. Before his injury he also was rated 154. His rating was dropped simply because he was off the track for so long, nothing to do with his ability.
The injury was not a reason to not run him - look at Aldaniti.
DOONEY'S GATE - last three runs previous to Aintree were 4th in the Topham over the same fences same meeting last year, then 4th in a Grade A Handicap chase at Leopardstown in Jan this year, then 1st in a handicap chase at Clonmel in February this year.
His OR rating was 154, higher than ALL those that finished the National this year, bar last year's winner, Don't Push It.
ORNAIS - he won over 3m at Cheltenham in November 2008 in a graduation chase beating the horse that was 5th in this year's National, Niche Market. He then pulled up lame in a Grade 1, and was given over 2 years off, so they had done the job right for repair.
He was brought back in 2 hunter chases, and was returning to form. He was on a mark of 140. Before his injury he also was rated 154. His rating was dropped simply because he was off the track for so long, nothing to do with his ability.
The injury was not a reason to not run him - look at Aldaniti.
AmyMay
Situation normal
No, you are of course right about dressage horses. However, what does end their careers more commonly than a lay person might appreciate is ligament and tendon damage, significant back problems and our old friend (suprisingly) laminitis. If their lucky any of these might happen late in their career. However, back issues can be the blight of the younger comp horse (including show jumpers) ending their careers and often life quite early.
It's an unfortunate consequence of every sport that the horse becomes a disposable commodity. And unless you wish to ban every equine sport (because God knows Endurance has plenty of skeletons in it's cupboard too) then to a degree you have to accept it (although of course we don't have to like it).
And of course this statement could not be further from the truth. The horse is not always the looser - many of them have very successful careers, and live on to enjoy a happy retirement. And I'd love to read your research on which top horses have ended up in slaughterhouses....
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teagreen
Well-Known Member
Over2You - you have a seriously blinkered view of the world if you think that banning racing will improve equine welfare. All the professionals agree - todays Horse and Hound has some interesting facts and opinions about the National. Only Animal Aid, who want to ban the use of animals for everything, want to see racing banned - yet I've never seen them give an opinion of what would happen to the equine world if this happened.
You have still not answered the question of what you think would happen to racehorses if racing got banned. Or what would happen to the hundreds of thousands employed in the industry.
You have still not answered the question of what you think would happen to racehorses if racing got banned. Or what would happen to the hundreds of thousands employed in the industry.
AmyMay
Situation normal
Or indeed the economy????
AMH
Well-Known Member
Absolutely - I think I read once that racing directly employs more people than any other sporting activity, not to mention all the associated business (feed merchants, farriers, vets etc). Unfortunately, those with an 'animal welfare' agenda put animals above all other costs and if we lived in a vacuum that would be fine, but we don't. Everything has consequences, and the consequences of banning jump racing and pointing to the rural economy in some parts of the country would be huge.
Over2You
Well-Known Member
I do not know exactly what 'skeletons' endurance has (please elaborate), but anytime I have seen it, the horses receive regular and thorough vet checks. I have also seen horses cross the finish line with plenty of energy left after covering 30+ miles!! They are NOT dripping in sweat, just about to collapse after 4-miles!!
For those horses who do go onto a happy retirement, there are hundreds of others who are not quite as lucky. However, as I said, even top ones (like Ferdinand and Exceller) end their careers in the slaughterhouse. Those are the two who were confirmed to have been slaughtered. I am still researching this subject. There are likely countless other champions who suffered the same fate. Not exactly a win-win situation for the horses is it when not even the winners are safe from the knacker man?
Caledonia
Well-Known Member
These were American horses that were sold abroad as stallions, one to Japan and one to Sweden. Ferdinand was 19 when he died, Exceller died at 24.
A sad and unfitting end, I totally agree, but seriously - what has this to do with British racing? I don't know the procedures for euthanasia in either Sweden or Japan, it may well be that is their disposal method, and their time was up.
Is it the fact that they might have been eaten, that you find shocking? Both lived to a decent age for TBs.
teagreen
Well-Known Member
And still she ignores the difficult questions....