the Grand National thread- a question

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badattitude

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I see there is a 17 page thread on the sad death of two horses in the grand National with much castigation of the race/organisers/whoever. As far as i could see the horses both died immediately. So I wish to know why there is such an upraor compared to when the event horse Springalong died at gatcombe. Also Simon Porloe at Burnham Market last year. Sure the horses today and those eventers were all doing what they loved? You cannot make a horse gallop and jump for miles if it is not willing. So why is the Grand National getting such a hammering and not the eventing riders/events? I am just wondering, that is all. Perhaps someone who is expressing their views on the Grand National so vehemently could explain the difference.
 
This I think is the correct answer. For me there is no difference at all because the risk is very high in both sports. It is not fair to be so critical of one and not the other. For sure the horse Dooneys Gate was much loved by the Mullins family just as Daisy Dick loved Springalong. Both may well have regrets that they ran on that day but both will be comforted that the horses died quickly doing what they did best.
 
Please do research before posting.

Springalong died of a heart attack - probably "dead" before he hit the ground.
First horse that fell at GN - sorry not sure of names - broken neck - very easily seen in replays - again probably "dead" near as damn it instantly.
Second horse - still had screens round when as horses passed on second lap - assume put down humanely by vet so not so quick.

NO idea of circumstances around other eventer mentioned.

Not sure of point being made - why start a seperate thread?

No I am not a tree/bunny/anything else hugger.
 
I think the point the op was making is why the Grand National is being singled out and not eventing and other horse sport which have fatalities.

I think myself its being singled out because it is so public and because of the betting involved and the perception its all about the money.
 
The grand national is the ultimate test. The horses are pushed to (or beyond) their limits. Also they are whipped around the course. Horses are FLIGHT animals, which means they RUN when they are scared. How hard do you think it would be to make a scared horse run? When a horse dies in x country or any other event its treated as a tragedy and normally it is looked into by organisers and they try to change the fence to make it safer. When you go to see an event its a possibility that a horse may be killed but with the grand national its pretty much a given. They are swept out of the way of the other racers and from viewers eyes, then the complaints come flooding in when people actually get to see how shocking a fall is. Usually from non horsey folk who have no idea what goes on and see it as something they shoudnt have to see-an inconvienience for them while they are sipping their champagne and counting their winnings.

Also, I do believe eventers such as Mary King are TRUE horse people. When she lost her horse Come again cavalier, I believe she was truelly devestated. Whereas those involved with the racers give the impression that its just about the £££££ :(
 
badattitude said:
I see there is a 17 page thread on the sad death of two horses in the grand National with much castigation of the race/organisers/whoever. As far as i could see the horses both died immediately. So I wish to know why there is such an upraor compared to when the event horse Springalong died at gatcombe. Also Simon Porloe at Burnham Market last year. Sure the horses today and those eventers were all doing what they loved? You cannot make a horse gallop and jump for miles if it is not willing.
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I would think that it is simply because part of the attraction of the national if anyone dares to get their head out the clouds and be honest about it is that it is deliberately 'risky'.It is not just an ordinary horse race,where people just want to watch the thrill of a group of horses running and hopefully make few quid if they've bet on the right one;) It's a race that has too many horses,too many fences and is too long.It's set up to be exhilarating and exciting,but for all the wrong reasons.It would appear that the loss of life is considered to be an acceptable trade off for the amount of money made and following created.

I watch and bet on the national BTW so that's not an 'anti' post,just my honest opinion on the national and why the race invokes the emotions and views that it does.


Despite not being 'anti' GN or racing in general,I do have to disagree with your comment on them doing what they love and being willing,have seen many similar comments on thread tonight and have been slightly confused by all of them:confused:.Surely it's far more likely they are doing simply what they know or what comes natural?? I appreciate there will always be the odd exception,but I highly doubt most race horses would run anything like they do if they were not following others!!
If anyone who has made a comment about them loving it and being willing could get a single horse to run the national in the way and time any previous winners have,on it's own while all the others stayed at the start then I would gladly hold my hands up and say I was wrong;):p,but until then I think I will continue to believe the more obvious answer which is that they are simply caught up in the mad gallop of a herd and following their instinct of not being the one left behind.I am sure there is also an element of doing what they know and are told,but not sure even that comes under willing,perhaps more 'conditioned to do'??

Apologies for essay,I seem to find it impossible to post without using a hundred words where ten would have sufficed:o
 
Also, I do believe eventers such as Mary King are TRUE horse people. When she lost her horse Come again cavalier, I believe she was truelly devestated. Whereas those involved with the racers give the impression that its just about the £££££ :([/QUOTE]
OH I so want to shout at you Call Again Cavalier. If you are going to comment about a horse/rider combination at lesat get the name right
 
Elsazzo thats a bigger load of bull than whats out in the fields with the cow tonight.

How can you say Mary King was more devastated at losing her horse than the Stewarts at losing Ornais or the Mullins family at losing Dooneys Gate.

So those poor horses were whipped from the start to the finish and all the time the owners were thinking of the money they would win. How do you come to this conclusion? go back to reading your my liitle pony book.
 
Haven't read the Grand National thread referred to here as not long in from being out most of the day but scanning the online papers there are some very graphic pictures of the falling horses in the Mail. Looking at them, which is the reality of those falls, I just can't see how horse racing is a sport but then again I also can no longer watch the big cross country events. I don't think you can justify saying that a death was quick after a fall makes it alright. There is also a jockey with serious head injuries too I think? I haven't got through all the news. Is it worth it really? I'm not saying the world of sport should wrap itself in cottonwool and never take risks and I know it's no different from people who choose to throw themselves down a luge headfirst, or the Grand Prix drivers where they want to put their skills to the ultimate test but to me there's something different when a human is the one asking that of a horse. 19 out of 40 coming home in the race I think it was so under half the field, 2 deaths, might not seem too much but for me personally it is.
 
yeeharider said:
Also, I do believe eventers such as Mary King are TRUE horse people. When she lost her horse Come again cavalier, I believe she was truelly devestated. Whereas those involved with the racers give the impression that its just about the £££££ :(
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OH I so want to shout at you Call Again Cavalier. If you are going to comment about a horse/rider combination at lesat get the name right[/QUOTE]

Dont really see that getting the horses name is that big a problem, you obviously knew who I was refferring to....
 
As I said before.....'And to those who say at least they die doing what they love - I'm not so sure if I was a horse, that I would love being whipped towards (some of those jockeys DO need to learn the meaning of 'moderation'!) a huge fence crushed between other horses going at a breakneck speed and trying desperately to find my feet over the other side, amongst the bodies (RIP horses) whilst being urged on at the same time, all for money.'
That is just my opinion and I honestly think that no matter how many times this question is asked, it will never be answered or figured out for that matter.
I am against horse racing full stop, I couldn't EVER fathom putting my horses through anything like that. I'm aware they may obtain the same injuries just running across a field with their herd mates, but they are not being asked to push or exceed their limits by a human.
K x
 
Dobiegirl said:
Elsazzo thats a bigger load of bull than whats out in the fields with the cow tonight.

How can you say Mary King was more devastated at losing her horse than the Stewarts at losing Ornais or the Mullins family at losing Dooneys Gate.

So those poor horses were whipped from the start to the finish and all the time the owners were thinking of the money they would win. How do you come to this conclusion? go back to reading your my liitle pony book.
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Well 'Dobiegirl' the OP asked for peoples opinions on the subject so I am entitled to mine. Im sure the owners of these horses were upset by the loss of these horses but I dont think I would be I would have been too shocked with that outcome if I made my horse run the national.

I came to the conclusion that the owners were thinking of the money at stake because thats what its all about. If there are other reasons for sending a horse out to run the national I would be interested to hear.

Was never a fan of my "liitle" pony books :D
 
Elsazzo you said Mary King was more devastated at losing her horse than the owners today who were only thinking of the money. I asked you how you knew that you didnt answer.

I was never a fan of my little pony books either:D
 
Dobiegirl said:
Elsazzo you said Mary King was more devastated at losing her horse than the owners today who were only thinking of the money. I asked you how you knew that you didnt answer.

I was never a fan of my little pony books either:D
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Dobiegirl, I believe that those who own racehorses do so because of the money. Im sure many do become attached to their horses but I dont believe the majority of them are loved and regareded in the same manner as those of us who compete our horses in other disciplines. I think anyone who runs their horse in the GN know that there is a fairly good chance that their horse may be fatally injured. When a horse wins at jumping/dressage/xC they tend to get lots of praise by rider but with racing they dont seem to concerned with the horse- looked like the jockey was getting all the praise today. I also feel the difference between racing (particularly the GN) and other disciplines is that there are SO many horses crammed together,the jumps are outragously designed & together with the speed-its a wonder any of them make it past the finish post.

ps. If another event had so many fallers, it would be halted immediatly. With the GN horses falling is just to be expected which is rather sad
 
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but Red Rum jumped 150 national fences with hardly a trip, and they were harder in those days, so are some horses not clever/agile/good enough to cope, whilst the McCains can get a horse to e a true national horse.
 
elsazzo said:
The grand national is the ultimate test. The horses are pushed to (or beyond) their limits. Also they are whipped around the course. Horses are FLIGHT animals, which means they RUN when they are scared. How hard do you think it would be to make a scared horse run? When a horse dies in x country or any other event its treated as a tragedy and normally it is looked into by organisers and they try to change the fence to make it safer. When you go to see an event its a possibility that a horse may be killed but with the grand national its pretty much a given. They are swept out of the way of the other racers and from viewers eyes, then the complaints come flooding in when people actually get to see how shocking a fall is. Usually from non horsey folk who have no idea what goes on and see it as something they shoudnt have to see-an inconvienience for them while they are sipping their champagne and counting their winnings.

Also, I do believe eventers such as Mary King are TRUE horse people. When she lost her horse Come again cavalier, I believe she was truelly devestated. Whereas those involved with the racers give the impression that its just about the £££££ :(
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What a load of rubbish!

One there are rules as to how many times the whip can be used.
Scared horses don't jump those size of fences!
These horses are fit and brave and are running with the 'herd' - they are enjoying themselves.
Accidents happen - the Grand National is the ultimate test for the Steeple Chaser.
Sadly horses die in all equine sports at all levels - we had one go at a Pony Club ODE - the very first level. We had one die at a rally - just 10yrs old, a pony with his 6yr old rider on board, just collapsed & died, another at Pony Club Eventing Champs, had a heart attack coming into a big bank just hit the bank and collapsed.. It is something you have to accept when you are involved in a sport with such generous animals.

I've worked in the racing industry for some years and many of the owners really love their horses and are extremely upset when anything happens to their horses.

It is wrong that this race gets so attacked - it is a wonderful race to watch and the dream of many jockeys and trainers to compete in in just the same way some riders dream of going to the Olympics.

Mon - I remember watching Red Rum at the National - what an amazing horse.
 
Evelyn said:
What a load of rubbish!


Accidents happen - the Grand National is the ultimate test for the Steeple Chaser.
Sadly horses die in all equine sports at all levels - we had one go at a Pony Club ODE - the very first level. We had one die at a rally - just 10yrs old, a pony with his 6yr old rider on board, just collapsed & died, another at Pony Club Eventing Champs, had a heart attack coming into a big bank just hit the bank and collapsed.. It is something you have to accept when you are involved in a sport with such generous animals.
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Horses die all the time but the horses you have cited sound like they would have died out on a gentle hack. The cause of their deaths was not solely due to the sport they were involved in. Horses in the GN die because of broken necks etc. because of what they are being asked to do.

I'm not totally against racing but I don't like the National. It's the ultimate test and the horses are so brave but I hate watching it knowing that it's likely that a horse will get killed.

Of course there are fatalities in eventing but when I watch that I can enjoy the skill of the horse and rider and it's not in the back of my head that a horse might die.
 
If research is done into horse fatalies in eventing I think you will find there are several at least that died as a result of falls. Mary Kings horse would be one of them. However if eventing is pursued by people who love their horses and the sport so much, one wonders why the records regarding equine fatalities in this sport are so hard to access if they exist at all. However no matter how much care and love eventers supposedly lavish on their horses, you would not see a even a 15 yr old horse pointed at the Grand National while eventers now are commonly seen at badminton and Burghley at this age or older, is it any wonder some have heart attacks? Why is this less heartless?
And as for my research, I have not seen a vets report on the PM of Springalong, neither I suspect has anyone on this forum but at the time, at the event, it looked to spectators as if the horse had tripped up the step and crashed into the second one. According to the report in this paper, a heart attack was 'suspected' but perhaps he did just trip. The end result was the same whatever.
 
elsazzo said:
Also, I do believe eventers such as Mary King are TRUE horse people. When she lost her horse Come again cavalier, I believe she was truelly devestated. Whereas those involved with the racers give the impression that its just about the £££££ :(
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What a very, very biased view.
Yes, some people may be more interested in the money, but the same for eventing, show jumping, dressage etc.
I can assure you that the people I have met "within" the racing industry put their horses welfare before anything else.
 
Everytime Daisy Dick, mary King et al jump around a course they do so for money - just the same reason horses jump around the GN in your opinion. The reality is that owners of GN bound horses are not thinking of the money they can win - its the most open race of the year so even having the favourite doesnt make you likely to walk away with the cheque. Its the excitement, adrenaline and pride of having a GN runner/winner - the same as having an Olympic contender or Badminton winner.

The owners in each sport rarely make much money out of it - a select few come away with the big purses each year but most run their horses at a loss - because their chosen sport is a passion and a hobby.
The riders/trainers are the ones to whom its a business - they ride to earn a living. In this respect an event rider competing an aged horse around a 4star event who collapses on course with a heart attack has brought about that horses death through greed - just as one might suggest a trainer may have done by entering a poor jumper in the ultimate NH racing test.
There is little difference between the 2 - if anything I think eventing is a more callous sport.
 
I'm not going to get into the wrongs and rights of the GN , but what i am thinking of right now are two stable lads/lasses that are looking at empty stables this morning. The guys that look after these magnificent animals day in , day out are the ones who have lost the most , their friends , those faces that greet you over the stable door each morning..to be handed back only a bridle after the GN must be devestating and my heart goes out to them....
 
All people who compete at the higher levels of equestrian sport do so for selfish reasons. Be that money, greed, ambition.... None of them are doing it "for the horse". I don't think you can make any distinction between the grief of the connections of a lost racehorse - and the connections of a lost eventer.
Lets face it, you strip it down to the bare bones of it and everything we DO with the horse is so selfish reasons, so lets not do the one-upmanship of "my sports better than your sport"..
 
elsazzo said:
really?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...sands--end-dog-food-French-dinner-plates.html
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Ah, the Daily Mail, the bastion of unbiased reporting :D

I have also worked in the racing industry and these horses are treated like kings. Anyone who has ever had a horse refuse a fence will know it is not possible to make a horse do something they really don't want to do. My horse broke his leg in the field and we had to wait 30 minutes for a vet to arrive. The horses that fall in the National have a vet with them in seconds. Yes, it is not nice to see but then it is not nice to see a horse break a leg in the field, on a hack or die of colic in the stables. The difference is that the GN is televised and watched by thousands of people who know nothing about equine sport in general so the reaction is huge. I'd far rather see a fit, healthy horse running in the National PTS if it breaks a leg than a neglected horse rotting in a field. Both falls were at early fences so accidents and not the result of exhausted horses. All the horses that finished the course were fine as far as I have heard.
 
I personally dont like racing but i will watch it every now and again, but i found the GN upsetting yesterday and felt it was completely unnecessary. i dont particularly enjoy watching them being wipped when all the jockeys and owners can see are the ££. People say they enjoy it, but they dont know any different.....
Race horses are over bred, are programmed into racing like machines, and if they arnt anygood, they become dog food. I have been to potters myself and have seen the sheds full of healthy tb's.
dont get me wrong they are well looked after etc but then again, they are worth alot of money!
 
elsazzo said:
I believe that those who own racehorses do so because of the money.
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Quite possibly the most hilarious inaccuracy I have ever heard!
If you had any comprehension of how much it costs to keep a racehorse at any level, and the margin of difference in cost is miniscule whether it be a maiden hurdler or a Grade 1 chaser.
The people who own racehorses do it for fun, yes you have the odd professional gambler, the guy who owned Denman was one, but the vast majority of people are your regular 'old school horsey' folk.
I think if you did an indepth poll of all racehorse owners there would probably be 1% who actually made a profit.
Now get back in your box and stop making statements which obviously have no factual basis!
 
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