The great diet debate ideas/help most welcome...

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cyberhorse

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OK so firstly we have a 17.1hh ISH who needs to gain weight. He can't have a high sugar starchy diet. The standard feed at the yard is sugar beet, molly, chop and bran and ad lib haylage. Two buckets a day of this as recommended by the YM (2x beet, 1x molly, 2xchop, 1xbran in each + my addition of blue chip pro balancer & limestone flour) is not enough to maintain a healthy weight. Most people on the yard who's horses can't maintain weight then add cooked barley. This horse put on weight, but went loopy and his previously unoticable shiv deteriorated significantly. My other horse a 16.2 SJ drops weight in winter and the addition of the cooked barley imho gave him awful feet - soft soles/thrush resistant to treatment.

First we just took out the barley and fed 2x scoops calm and condition, weight crept back on and shiv went quiet again. For the 16.2 SJ he was now out on grass so could just have the barley removed and his feet gradually improved and we got rid of the thrush easily. However following advice from "nutritionists" and people on here we thought that the yard feeds generally were not what we should be feeding. So on advice we went onto calm and condition and dengie molasses free for both horses to replace all the chops & bran.

However now further research shows the calm and condition to be cereal based (so ? too starchy for the horse with the shiv and suspected PSSM). On starting the Dengie I found that although not labelled as an Alf Alfa feed it contains alf alfa pellets. So now we have extra protein I find worrying - need to see if the lite they do is Alf Alfa free. Hence I now feel I have jumped from the frying pan into the fire. The YM says that is why they feed what they do as they feel theirs is more fibre based, and that feeding what I feed will have too much protein and lead to health problems - to be fair their horses do seem to go on forever. However I feel I have to add oils, balancers and limestone flour to keep their feet good and prevent too much weight loss hence this ends up costing a fortune and they are underweight in winter.

Basically I want to feed a low sugar diet, with calories more from oils (mainly O3 and not too much O6 as this is pro-inflammatory), without increasing protein (alf alfa and soya cause concerns). The other issue is I can't find any information to work out how much protein/fat is safe anyway. Unfortunately our horses can't get enough energy to maintain weight from just a high fibre basic diet even with the blue chip pro balancer. Also feed companies I am finding are fairly misleading and not that upfront about how much cereal/protein is in their products. I just want a balanced high fibre diet that has some extra calories from oils in winter when they need it. Going round in circles - if you have been there and found a way out please help!!
 
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try fast fibre, molasses free chaff and micronised linseed. the linseed good for.coat, feet and if you feed the correct amount also condition/weight gain
 
Firstly, you won't find information on 'safe' levels because they just don't exist. There is very little decent research into equine nutrition.

If you are wanting to stick to 'straights' then you could add oats (which are a very good energy source and not the 'rocket fuel' that people seem to believe). Adding linseed meal would also increase the oil/fat level.

Confused with 'molly' and 'chop'. Are you using a mollassed based chaff and a non mollassed based chaff as well? I'm not a huge bran fan either, it's not adding much in the way of nutrition, it's just a filler really.

If not wanting to use any compound feeds (bar the balancer), I'd be tempted to stick to the sugar beet, unmollassed chaff, balancer, oats and linseed and give that a try. Stick to the ad lib haylage too :)

I find it a little strange that there are a number of horses on your yard that struggle to maintain condition, considering they are on ad lib haylage and a reasonable amount of bucket feed. What sort of workload do they do? Has your horse actually been diagnosed with shivers and PSSM? There are specialist feeds developed for PSSM/EPSM and a number of forum members horses who are doing well on them.
 
ok so my old boy had diagnosed PSSM, he was a thoroughbreddy ISH who struggled to keep weight on

he was on a veterinary recommended diet of Saracen Re-Leve, Alfa A Molasses Free and Coolstance Copra Meal through winter. He was also on a Vit E supplement when any stressful situations were due to happen such as travelling etc please feel free to PM me with any questions about the PSSM and diet and i still have some Re-Leve left infact a whole bag so if you wanted it and are close by you are welcome to it, i also still have his Vit E supplement all of no use to me as i lost him in february
 
I would stick with the Calm and Condition, which is most definitely not cereal based, and only contains 12% starch. If you feed at least 1kg a day it also contains all the vits and mins you need, unless your horse needs a specialist supplement. Allen and Page also do a weight gain mix, but that contains 45% starch, so probably not ideal. I'm curious as to why you don't want to feed an alfalfa chaff, as that would be my recommendation - Mollichaff have just brought out an Alfa-A equivalent called Alfalfa Oil, which is unmollassed but does have oil, for poor doers. I would also be feeding either linseed oil or micronised linseed.

ETA: Fast Fibre is low calorie, but great for very, very low starch/sugar and high fibre. Can be added to Calm and Condition if you are worried? I'm mainly suggesting Allen & Page because I happen to have all the nutritional info in front of me at the moment - I don't work for them or anything! If you want any specific details (e.g. starch/protein content) I'm at work at the moment and have it all to hand, if that helps?
 
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Why not feed him a good old fibre based diet? Hi Fibre Cubes, Alpha A and Beat twice a day - plus as much hay as he wants.

Bran? What's he being fed that for??
 
The horses on the yard are mainly showjumpers so burn off plenty, but also the the grass availability this year is not good (fields keep flooding and they get kept in 24/7 for a few days at a time) and the haylage is bought in so can vary a lot hence many are on "extra" feeds to maintain weight. Trying to do anything about this would mean changing yards and most other yards round here are far worse - we already travel 30miles to this one!

I always was given to understand that the haylage would provide all the protein they need at their ages (7yrs and 13yrs) so I should avoid any high sources in the diet. I considered forage testing, but the vet advised to save my money as if it is bought in from different sources then the results would be meaningless.

I don't like the molassed chop for the ISH, but with basic plain chop both horses throw most out on the floor - the dengie they go completely mad for so I will see if there is an unmolassed variety without the alf alfa that is flavoured.

Linseed was mentioned by one of the nutritionists to potentially help with the shiv. She also mentioned vitamin E, omega 3 and selenium. I take it the micronised linseed could be fed without any worries regarding starch/protein?

Saracen Re-leve and cool stance copra sound very interesting so will look into these.

Rhino:It may be that I head back to straights though if nothing seems additionally beneficial. I am guessing that the amount of oats would be low hence I don't need to worry too much about it being a cereal? Is this OK for their feet? and would it add weight sufficiently for a poor doer or is the linseed more crucial?

My OH part owns the ISH and he won't have him tested for PSSM as he does not want to have to declare anything other than "he has a mild shiv" when he comes to sell him. This has already caused huge arguments between us (I'd get him tested and sod any further value loss) but my vet has just said given the lines he comes from it won't do any harm to assume this link and as sugar sends him loopy anyhow it is best avoided.

Will do some PMing too - many thanks!
 
I would feed fast fibre and or speedi-beet and micronised linseed. If you get a sack of the linseed and feed at least a mug full a day, you will start to notice a difference within a couple of weeks. If you want added interest, a high fibre cube or grass based chaff will give you this.

The feeds you are currently feeding sound increadibly large. I would advise feeding significantly less per feed. feed more frequentl if required.

All dengie products contain alfa-alfa.
 
All Dengie feeds contain alfafa

I don't quite understand the haylage and protein comment. Especially as haylage quality can vary so much. Unless your horse reacts badly to Alfafa I have never known anyone to have an issue feeding it as it is fibre and not cereal. Even alongside haylage.

If you are wanting high oil for weight gain have a look at Equijewel. amazing stuff.
 
Probably worth adding that the ISH is on 2 1/2 stubbs scoops per day and the KWPN 2 scoops. Allen and Page said if they both have at least 1 1/2 a day they don't need a balancer, however it is sensible to keep the KWPN on it as he is in hard work and the BCP has extras in it aimed at competition horses.

Holding: it was the YM and a couple of threads on here that said it was not low starch. I would be really interested in the starch protein figures to compare it to something like speedi beet and see how it stacks up with the amounts I feed.

Amymay: I am not sure I agree with the bran which is why I added limestone flour initiallty and then stopped it, the yard believe it aids digestion and has veterinary backing. The Alfa A I am avoiding on a protein basis. Hi Fibre cubes I would be keen on but I am not sure I could swap out the calm and condition for these as it is not promoted as helping weight/condition.
 
There's nothing wrong with protein, after all we all need it to maintain and build muscle, but it does need to be fed in the right quantities.

I take it that the feed is part of your livery payment - hence the the YO's involvement.

Calm and Condition may be advertised as promoting weight gain - in my experience it doesn't.
 
amymay said:
There's nothing wrong with protein, after all we all need it to maintain and build muscle, but it does need to be fed in the right quantities.



Calm and Condition may be advertised as promoting weight gain - in my experience it doesn't.
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Totally agree
 
Please please get him tested for PSSM it is crucial that if he has it you know and new owners know as it is perfectly manageable through diet and exercise but that regime must be strictly monitored and adhered to or you could have a horse tying up every 5seconds and every time he encounters undue stress levels even from menial things like travelling. Believe me speaking from experience going to the field everyday to bring in your tied up horse which is what will happen if the condition is allowed to become severe in the levels of polysaccharide stored is horrible. Muscle biopsies will give you the necessary answers and you can then work with the vet/nutritionist to formulate the correct diet and you will never know he has it trust me
 
Holding: it was the YM and a couple of threads on here that said it was not low starch. I would be really interested in the starch protein figures to compare it to something like speedi beet and see how it stacks up with the amounts I feed.
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Well, it isn't extra low starch - it isn't advertised as being suitable for laminitics like the Fast Fibre is at 5%. But that entire range is barley free and low in starch/sugar, and at 12% starch and 5% sugar I would consider the Calm and Condition a suitable feed, especially if they looked good on it before. Plus as I said as long as you are feeding at least 1kg a day (you would need more for weight gain) you don't need a balancer. Now, the protein is 12% but to be completely honest I wouldn't be worrying too much about that. As long as you aren't feeding pure alfalfa forage (e.g. alfalfa chaff and alfalfa haylage) I would say an unmolassed alfalfa oil chaff would be fine. If you want to PM me though I can give you contact details for an Allen and Page rep who would be happy to come with a weighbridge and work out a detailed diet plan for you.
 
Have you thought about adding a high oil rice bran supplement like Equi Jewel or Omega Rice? You feed in smaller quantities than a mix but it has a high calorie count for weight gain, muscle gain and slow release energy.

We swear by the stuff... I prefer Omega Rice as it doesnt contain molasses. I pay £22 for a 17kg tub and that lasts a month.

http://www.falconequinefeeds.co.uk/Balancers/Omega-Rice-20kg


I have one who has shown both ulcer and EPSM like symptoms. My vet advised trying an ESPM feed before we ran tests - mostly because both my other horses were recieving treatment for other issues at the time and he didn't want to totally stress me out! He's a big, gangly 6yo TB who has grown 2 inches since I got him in Dec last year. I was struggling to keep weight on him with a just fibre diet so decided to try Re-leve, which worked a treat and really helped him with both his energy levels and his muscle gain, but didn't do much weight wise. He felt fab on it though and I fed it with rice bran and enough chaff to keep weight on him.

Horses need protein to build muscle, alfalfa fed in the right amounts shouldnt cause any problems unless your horse has a specific intollerance.
 
Thanks will look into those suggestions. Alf Alfa has a bad rep on our yard due to a horse known to a number of us having reputedly suffered renal failure due to high protein in the diet (allegedly down to alf alfa - however I assume they fed way too much).

I have been told to try not to exceed 12% protein max in the buckets by the nutritionists and that AA can be approx 18%, I looked very closely at their tea buckets this evening and the AA pellets in the dengie are really minimal in terms of proportion by weight so thanks to reassurances on here (thanks all) I can't see it doing any harm unless one of them ends up being intolerant.

I think the way forward is to have some C&C in the feed and increase the fibre from one of the suggested feeds as he gains weight and try to stop at the ideal balance point. I will discuss testing the ISH with the vet again and see what they advise. He has yet never shown any sign of tying up but I know that is no guarantee for the future. I just know the C&C keeps him sane and does get him looking good.

Holding I'll PM you about the rep offer as that would be fantastic as we have only estimates from the weigh tape and condition scoring ATM actual weights would really help and be great for double checking the lorry loading.

Thanks everyone!
 
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Thanks Rhino! We've also been down to WCF to read the bags too when picking up our chicken feed (they don't mind us poking about). I am going to try to calculate the % by weight/proportion in the actual bucket rations so I can calculate the proportions of fibre, protein, starch etc in the various combination options. Also going to ask around at the county show tomorrow and pick up leaflets that any of the stalls have. We need to research and decide for ourselves as most people involved with our horses/feeds have a vested business interest so that can make opinions biased. Will also be booking a double slot at the vets when the dog goes for his jabs so I can have their opinions on nutrition.
 
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