The Great Kissing Spine Epidemic

[fredthoroughbred]

Is it just me or is this something that everyones horse has nowadays (mine being one)?? I don't understand why back in the day I very rarely, if ever, heard of a case of kissing spines unless it was high level competition horses

They still had the same means of diagnosing it but you rarely heard anything about it.

Since I found out about Fred having it, it seems absolutely tonnes of horses on HHO and in general have KS or had the operation.

Perhaps now I am so aware of it, I pay more attention but it seems very en vogue right now. A bit like how bone spavin became very fashionable a few years ago

 

[Bossanova]

People werent looking for it like they do now.

 

[scotsmare]

I would agree that it's probably just one more thing that vets look for in their quest to solve the problem. Technology has evolved enough to make the diagnosis a bit easier.

 

[hellspells]

I think that due to the way it is usual shown by the horses (i.e bucking, loss of preformance etc) unless it was a high level competion horse people didn't go for envistigation as much as we do now.
I'm not in anyway implying that the way things use to be done is wrong but as our attitudes change to the way we treat our horses and the technology that is availible to everyone (especially with more and more people having vet treatment insurance) we are much more aware of doing everything we can.
20 + years ago people technology wasn't readily availible to everyone and people were much more likely to make do.

And yes another person with a horse with KS

 

[hellspells]

[ QUOTE ]
I would agree that it's probably just one more thing that vets look for in their quest to solve the problem. Technology has evolved enough to make the diagnosis a bit easier.

[/ QUOTE ]


I rambled on for ages not making a point and you've made it in 2 lines! Thats what I ment

 

[cob1]

Ditto - another horse with KS (untreatable however).

Sorry for a hijack - but does anyone think that we may have changed the demands on our (especially pleasure/ amateur) horses i.e. workload etc?

 

[RachelMcTimoney]

That has made me a little angry... grrr.. Sorry FredTB nothing personal! But i know i certainly have not chosen for my horse to have back problems (she had xrays and scan and she has relatively mild problems compared to some horses) I was devastated as now she is in light work following shockwave and loads of soft tissue work from me.

This horse had the potential to be my horse of a lifetime and as i have two other teenagers i certainly won't have the time/finance to get another and my young mare's future is uncertain as to whether she will be able to do much ridden work and if the problem with her spine witll deteriorate as she gets older.

I think it is purely because people are more aware of subtle changes in performance and will seek professional advice to try and sort the problem, be this through physio/McTim noticing a problem and referring to vet or going straight to the vet for investigation...certainly nothing to do with fashion.

 

[TarrSteps]

The ability to find it is a big part of it. I have a book from the '30's written by a fellow who posited it as a cause for "behavioural" problems and backed up his theory by doing autopsies on suspected cases - there are photos (before and after, as it were) and case studies of particular horses he studied. So it's nothing new.

We also have a lot less tolerance now and are more likely to look for solutions than accept limitations. There used to be horses that just went a certain way or couldn't do certain things and people tended just to accept it. I suspect many of these horses were physically compromised but found ways around it so long as they were allowed to, even competing at quite a high level.

BUT there are quite a few people who believe that there are differences in the horses we make now and the way we produce them that might very well have increased the incidence of various back/neck/related areas problems. The great rolkur debate brought a lot of it out into the open and I have to say my own experience leads me to believe there's something to it.

So, as with so many things, a combination. We are finding more but it's likely not a fluke there is more to find.

 

[seabiscuit]

More horses being bred = Higher percentage of horses with problems perhaps??

Maybe more horses being line bred have increased the risks of such problems especially among exracehorses?

Maybe years ago horses with bad behaviour problems/poor performance would have simply have been shot whereas nowdays we try and solve everything?

 

[CBAnglo]

I think there is more treatment options available (yes I have one with KS) and previously either pts or retired.

I also think we do expect more of youngsters and do school a lot more whereas previously they would spend the first couple of years hacking and hunting etc - you wouldnt have a 4 year old being schooled 4 times a week.

It cant be a coincidence that a lot of KS cases come up in 6 and 7 year old competition horses (mine is 7 and is supposed to be a dressage horse).

I also think it is more common to find problems because we tend to give our horses time off - either a holiday or we are too busy working etc. A lot of problems I think are found after the horse has had a break and therefore their muscles are weaker and can no longer support the injury - hence why when you put a horse in retirement they seem to go down very quickly initially and then seem to level off.

 

[nic85]

This is only my two pennies worth so would love to hear your views too!!

I think that inter-breeding and poor quality horses being bred are also a factor. I know alot of you have very good horses but how many of them are TB's?

I watched a documentry when I lived in Suffolk about the racehorse of today and the guy (no idea who) who was presenting it had a cannon bone from a TB 30 years ago and one from now (bearing in mind this would be about 2003-4) and the size difference was unbelievable!! The cannon bone from 30 years ago was massive compared to the bone from this decade.

I agree that technology has progressd and therefore makes it easier to diagnose somethinig that we really never knew exsisted in us mere mortals and our horses. but its the like DJD (the degeneritive (sp???) joint probs) Ive heard of so many more horses suffering from this now...its madness...but what does it mean?

( I would like to point out that I just have my oppinions and am not out to offend anyone

)

 

[hotdog]

My physio reckons that there are more back problems now a days because more people wash their horses after exercise rather than spending half an hour grooming after exercise to get rid of the latic build up

 

[Orangehorse]

It would be interesting if there was a study on the KS incidence, ie. breed, history, when first ridden, etc. etc.

I agree with the above, in that we investigate problems and have the technology to do it much better, plus that an operation for KS is now feasible, in the old days it may have meant a bullet, like colic in a way. Horses have operations that in previous years there would have been no hope for.

I went to a very intersting lecture once and it was mentioned that a horse could break its pelvis in a fall, but it could heal and although the horse wouldn't be level, it could still work and I thought of all the hunters I have seen trotting down the road rather lopsided. I can easily see that a hunter would have a fall, be "a bit stiff" and turned out for the summer and then be "sound" in the following autumn and carry on hunting, with a broken, but now healed pelvis. Also a local vet gave a talk on back problems and said that even if the horse hasn't got a perfect back it could still be ridden and do work. I suppose when you are talking dressage horses, these unevenness would come to light and be investigated.

 

[fredthoroughbred]

You guys are such a knowledgable bunch!! I think after reading through your responses it seems that it is a combination of owners being unaware, vets having access to better technology, breeding and maybe we do demand more from our horses these days.
I read somewhere that upto 70% of competition horses have KS so that would certainly back your theories up.

Orangehorse - I think a survey of sorts would be extremely interesting.
Mctrcm - Sorry to cause offence, I didn't mean it in a "I bought a 'le creuset' pan set and a horse with KS at the weekend). Its just that it seems a very common problem nowadays and it was rarely mentioned back in my day so apologies to you

 

[SpruceRI]

I've often wondered the same thing.

Spoke to someone a couple of years ago who'd just bought an ID X TB which turned out to have a KS....she said 'ah well, I know I shouldn't have bought this breed mix, it's prevalent' I thought that was really odd.

Do you think it makes a difference on the breed or the breed crosses? i.e a TB that's naturally long and light in the back with an ID that's shorter and stockier??

 

[CBAnglo]

I think it is more likely to occur in short backed horses - mine is very short backed. It is just common sense - there is less room for the spinous processes.

As for it always being TBs, well, it is common in race horses (TBs) and competition horses (a lot are TBx) but I am not sure that that necessarily means TBs are more prone to developing KS. I think they are more likely to be pushed at an earlier age and that they are being asked to work correctly which will highlight the problem.

My horse did not show any typical KS symptoms - he was just slightly short on the near side hind and initially we all though bone spavin. It was only when I gave him time off to investigate the problem that he became stiff in his back and his back muscles seized up.

 

[chickeninabun]

It's like the TV programme with the poor pedigree dogs. Horses, being in-bred and bred to produce a certain conformation (especially in the USA, QH's etc), are going the same way.

 

[hellspells]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it is more likely to occur in short backed horses - mine is very short backed. It is just common sense - there is less room for the spinous processes.


[/ QUOTE ]

I hate disagreeing incase I get jumped on but this is actually true. There doesn't seem to be a really signaficant tread in length of back in relation to KS BUT if you really delve (sp) into it, it is slightly more common for longer backed horses to suffer from it.

 

[Jellymoon]

I can remember back in the day not ever thinking much about 'back problems' or teeth/saddles etc. If a horse bronced or misbehaved, it was given a good 'squaring up'! Now looking back, I can think of many horses we had on the yard that probably had kissing spines, including my sister's horse who used to buck everyone off. This was in the late 70s, and we didn't do anything like getting the vet out, or having his saddle checked, we just sent him off to a trainer for schooling, who also got bucked off into a jump and knocked out cold!

I was very young at the time, so I don't know the full story, but the horse ended up at a riding school, still bucking people off. Very sad, poor chap.

So, I'm not sure if there are more cases now, or if we are just more aware of it.

And old school trainer I know, now nearly 70, reckons a lot of back problems are down to horses not being schooled properly because 'people nowadays don't know what they are doing'. In her opinion, if a horse is schooled properly it's back muscles will be strong enough to support it's rider and the work it's expected to do.

I can see her point, but when I was a kid we never used to school our horses much, we just used to hunt in the winter, do pony club in the summer, and maybe a few circles in a field corner, but that was it really. We didn't have a school. So perhaps it's the 'schooling' that ruins the backs - maybe most horses are designed to stay in straight lines!

 

[Orangehorse]

Well in theory dressage can be called "physiotherapy for the horse" and improves their muscles and carrying capacity and also keeps their backs strong well into old age. That is the theory of course, the important thing is that is it done correctly!

And considering the number of dressage horses that seem to suffer from soundness problems I wonder if they are all being worked correctly. I read once in Horse and Hound an article by a physiotherapist who said she had less trouble with racehorses galloping and jumping in more or less straight lines, than dressage horses required to go round and round in circles.

But then again, so long as a racehorse goes, no-one is looking at the quality of its paces and the evenness of its stride, or the ability to strike off in canter the same on both legs.

 

[CBAnglo]

There doesn't seem to be a really signaficant tread in length of back in relation to KS BUT if you really delve (sp) into it, it is slightly more common for longer backed horses to suffer from it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I thought I read somewhere a long time ago (I think in a HH article) that it was more common in short backed horses and mine certainly is very short backed and the common sense answer for me would be that there was less room.

Although I cant really see a pattern with breeds etc. Everyone I know (in person) with a horse that has KS has had a TB or TBx and was diagnosed at 6 or 7. Although that might be because I know more people with TB or TBx aged 6 or 7!

I just found the article - was pointed out to me by Holly_P.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/features/5125/267788.html

 

[TicTac]

I lost a horse recently due to a multitude of problems, one of those being kissing spine. He would always have a problem going into canter, needing to chuck his head up initially but would then settle. Out hacking I used to think that he hated the flies as he would start to chuck his head up and down in a nodding fashion despite repellents, masks etc. He was obviously uncomfortable and in pain. However it was a hind leg lameness that first alerted me to this and several other problems.

As mentioned. equine science and diagnosis has come such a long way in the 35 odd years or so that I have been keeping horses and the fact that more horses are being diagnosed means that it could possibly be an affliction of the modern horse like cancer is in the human or then again it could be that we just know more about the problem now. The final diagnosis for my horse was that a lot of his problems were caused by congenital abnormalities. On the outside his conformation was good enough to the eye but his was damage done as a foal in the form of malnutrition or incorrect breeding despite being a registered irish draught x TB.

 

[Seahorse]

I attended a lecture/demo by a chiropractor the other week, it was amazing and one of the things we spoke about was kissing spines. A girl there brought the x rays of her horses back, it had 13 spines touching and was due to be PTS a few days later. She had just found out that the horses sire has also been diagnosed with KS too.

One of the things we discussed during the evening was the way horses are worked, I have lessons with a classical instructor and I work Axel in a classical way ie he works over his back and uses himself correctly. She showed us some pictures as a comparison between horses working like this and being worked incorrectly with just their head tucked in, hollow in the back etc
It was her opinion that the way some horses are trained like this is actually causing them to develop KS, now I know this isn't the case in every horse with KS so please don't all take offence but I bet it is a major contributing factor. It should take years of schooling and building the correct muscles to have a horse working properly and yet how many overproduced 3 and 4 yr olds have you seen that are working in outlines far too advanced that have been hauled in using draw reins?

 

[CBAnglo]

Perhaps. Except I too have a classical dressage instructor and my horse has been trained classically as well. We were never concerned about an outline and he has also been trained to be supple and balanced in all of his movements and goes in his natural outline. He has always worked well through his back and had a very good and even topline. He didnt display any of the normal symptoms (bucking/rearing etc) but then he was worked correctly - of course if I had allowed him to hollow his back and run on the forehand the impingement would have been more severe.

I am not sure that it is just one contributing factor. The first 2 vets didnt think there was anything wrong with him. A very well respected chiropractor could also not find anything wrong with him. It was only after I had stopped riding him for about 6 weeks that you could clearly see there was something wrong with his back. Perhaps if he hadnt been worked correctly the KS may have come to light a lot sooner.

 

[Seahorse]

That's very interesting CBAnglo, how old is your horse, has he been recently diagnosed with KS?
I'm not saying that every horse with KS has been worked incorrectly at all, and your horse proves this.
I think the book I was looking at was 'Tug of War' there are loads of pictures in there of good and bad outlines and almost all of the bad one's show a horse with a hollow/dipped back. Surely this would be a major contributing factor?

 

[CBAnglo]

He is 7 and was diagnosed last month but I noticed he was slightly short on one leg in about February. Two vets and a chiropractor didnt think there was anything wrong with him. I tried to work him through it at first - just hacking and no serious schooling but no joy and he was stiff and one sided.

He then got into a fight and at the same time showed massive muscle spasms in his back - we thought it was from the fight (it was really bad) and he had 3 electric wave treatments and spasms gone. chiro came out and said no problems - slight tightening in the sacro area but he had been cast the day before so he thought it was down to that (but sacro strain is consistent with KS). Rode him for 2 weeks hacking and he was perfect again - then again he was suddenly showing massive back spasms. Xrays that week revealed that two vertrebrae in the lumbar region are very very close together and he is having a bone scan tomorrow.

Vet said the reason that we did not notice anything in the school was because he was working correctly. When I just hacked him out without schooling him to build up the muscles he couldnt cope with the work and therefore the muscles spasmed as they were trying to protect the spine. I dont know how long he has been in pain really as he was kept quite fit until February which is when I noticed the shortness.

My vet said that when the horse is working correctly it opens the spine and therefore the impingement is eased. The muscles build up correctly and help support the spine - which is why some vets are against surgery and just ask people to lunge their horses in a pessoa for 3 months and then keep the horse in constant work with injections.

Its only when you stop riding them that all the problems become more obvious. So when I gave him that time off at the beginning of the year, all the problems started coming to the surface.

 

[Seahorse]

Thank you, I hope he comes right for you. Keep me updated x

Axey had a muscle spasm in the left lumbar region in february, he was x rayed and showed no sign of KS in fact my vet said there was loads of room between each vertebrae (thank god!).

 

[Tinypony]

Horse: Pure bred Arab mare
Conformation: Very good, back neither long or short
Breeding: Top class, for racing and endurance. From a long line of big strong horses, half brothers and sisters excelling in all disciplines.
First sign of problems: Age of about 14 months. Investigated, but no xrays done so put down to muscle problems in sacroilliac area.
Backed: Lightly aged 4, started to work gently at 5 with attention paid to correct working.
However... odd days of tense working and resistance (when at other times very good and relaxed), so she kept being given periods of rest as the vets couldn't see what was wrong with her. She had very subtle hind leg lameness, and gradually a weakening in the appearance of the hind end.
KS finally diagnosed aged 6.
What I'm saying is... who knows? (We don't have a crying smilie, but I would need one here).

 

[jamid1]

Well here is my story -
3 1/2 year old Dutch Warmblood Mare who is very well bred and have owned since a foal, went away to be backed a couple of months ago but was showing as being short when on the lunge so we went through the whole Physio thing with little improvement and was then referred to a specialist vet and yesterday was diagnosed with KS. Absolutely gutted as this has been the long line of problems I've had this year. Had one horse diagnosed with gastric ulcers who passed out while in the lorry and got his head stuck and now has a facial paralysis and just last week was confirmed as having sarcoids. I have another yearling who struggled through the winter and ended up being referred to a specialist vet but turned out to be nothing but 3 weeks ago sustained a puncture wound and is on her 3rd week of anti-biotics and bute

I really think life sucks sometimes and yesterday was the icing on the cake.
So I wouldn't say that all horses with KS is due to being worked incorrectly as that certainly isn't the case for my Warmblood.
Well done for getting this far

So if anyone has any experience of having a young horse with KS I would be very interested to hear your story. She has 3 or 4 of the dorsal spinal processes touching (awaiting bone scan to confirm as it wasn't clear on the x-rays).

 

[TarrSteps]

Wow, just did a search and there has been an explosion of discussion about kissing spine relative to the last time I looked. Of course, there is always the "crime statistics effect" - crime rates are actually down in many areas relative to the past but we all *think* they're higher now because we hear so much more about it. Hard to know if the internet helps or hurts sometimes.

Does anyone know if there has been a controlled study on KS? It would be interesting to know if many non-symptomatic horses "positive" x-rays but would never be identified because there is no reason to look. I'd also be interested to know how many horses treated - and improved in the short term - for other problems also had KS but again, not identified because no one looked after the first diagnosis. There seems to be at least some anecdotal evidence that there are horses out there with no obvious problems but identifiable (by x-ray) KS . . . makes you wonder if there are horses "diagnosed" with it who actually have other problems instead/as well.

I know that was part of why navicular stopped being a disease and started being a syndrome - the more people looked the less of a consistent link they found between the traditionally accepted diagnostic x-ray results and actual lameness. Again, a condition that seemed a mystery, then seemed very simple, and finally turned out to be a lot more complex. It turned out just seeing something didn't mean a problem and NOT seeing something didn't mean there wasn't one.

I am not implying incorrect diagnosis or fear mongering, just asking if anyone knows of data proving that what we see is always what we get.