The hack from Hell

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goldengirl26

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Hello everyone,
Im hoping someone out there has some ideas to help me.
I have a 13 year old NF 14hh.
He is lovely on the ground, very loving gives hugs and would stand around all day being fussed. He lives with 10 other horses and ponies and lives out 24/7, has one large hard feed a day and plenty for hay. He has no know medical illnesses, teeth and back are fine.

Hacking out is a complete mystery, i have tried everything!

We only have to ride towards the gate to the yard and it starts, i call it the 'stop - start' routine.
We go along fine abit ploddy but thats fine by me then for no apparent reason he will stop, plant his feet and nothing will make him go forward. We end up standing there until he decided he's going to start listening again.
This stop-start, happends over and over again at random intervals from several minutes of walking to only a few steps from the last 'stop', until we head for home and then hes the perfect hacker!

We have tried:
hacking with other horses, hacking alone with a person walking with us, just leading him out, different routes. All to the same effect, stop starts all the way out, and hacks home perfectly.

When he stops i've tried to kick him on with cheerful bright 'walk on' commands, i've tried to reassure/sooth him, i've got off lead him along a bit then got bk on, we've tried to lure him with treats but that made him stop even more! I have even just sat there and did nothing but keeping facing the way i want to go and waited till he moved by himself. All these things have got him going again and then not worked the second time!

I have tried the whip on him too, and this makes him buck, they are only small and easy to sit, and then i have to fight him to keep him facing the way i want to go, as he pulls his head away from me and tries to head for home. im just not physically strong enough to hold his head with one hand. This has seen the best progress, but every time we go out i have to have at least 3 of these battles and the time between them varies, and its emotionally and physically draining, im normally so tired by the end of a battle that i just want to give up and go home.

All his tack came with him from his previous owner, i think its called a Roller bit, i can only describe it as having metal beads along it so he cant hold the bit in his teeth.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how i can make hacks out enjoyable? and make him more forward going?
 
What happens if you turn him round and make him walk backwards?
What happens if you hit him, he bucks and you whack him again harder to tell him not to buck?
Are your hacks on grass or on the road? If your hacks are somewhere that will allow it put a headcollar on under his bridle, choose a longish lead rope and attach it to the ring of the headcollar and then round his neck. Carry a long dressage whip. When he stops, get off him, twist the reins together, put the throatlash through them, undo the lead rope and make him walk and trot round you in small circles, don't get cross, just keep pushing him on as though you are bored and could stand there all day. Give him a good ten minutes making him work. Then get back on and continue. As soon as he stops he goes back on his small circle again. It will take forever to get round your hack the first time, he'll have wised up a bit the second time but still probably push his luck and hopefully by the third time he'll try it once and decide that it's far too much like hard work.

Do you do round routes or do you go out and back the same way?
 
When I was young I had a New Forest gelding that I loved to bits but he was so naughty! He used to knap too, we would get stuck at the yard gate and he wouldn't go forward, would rear etc. Fortunately we had a girl who worked on the farm who used to train race horses so when he got really naughty she used to get on him and ride him through it and then he would be angel for me, for a bit anyway! So maybe get a stronger rider to sit on him who isn't going to take any nonsense and get him moving for you. Let us know how you get on.
 
Hi and welcome to the forum.

The behaviour you describe is called napping (or jibbing if they plant and refuse to move in any direction). It's quite common and has a couple of causes.

Sometimes they are nervous about going out into the big bad world and lack confidence in themselves and their rider to keep them safe. Sometimes they are very 'herd bound' or 'barn sour' (US term, along with various others) and don't want separated from their friends. And sometimes they're just lazy, don't wantoto and are aware their rider isn't going to make then.. I suspect your pony is 80% of the latter.

You sound very novicey. Has a more experienced rider hacked him? Do they have the same issue?

My first port of call would be a saddle fitter and a general MOT. A pinching saddle is pretty much guaranteed to make him reluctant to go out.

It's hard to say without seeing it but it sounds like he's being a stubborn brat and has quickly worked out that if he says No!, there's little you can do about it and you give up.

Toughening up and making sure he knows who's boss (on the ground and ridden) is essential. It would be a good idea to get a groundwork specialist instructor to come out and show you how.
 
If he responds reasonably well to the flick of a whip you could try carrying a long schooling whip that will reach well behind you in each hand, then you can *ahem* encourage him forward without taking a hand off the reins?. If he puts in a little buck, I'd chastise him for it as not acceptable, get after him again and insist he goes forward if only for a few steps before you either keep going or you ask him to change direction. Could be a slow process. What happens if you go with gusto and trot him straight off and keep going?
 
Ive been riding for 6 years but i confess previous rides have been riding school ponies and 'been there, done that' rides (ive never had to ride with a whip before). This pony is defiantly pushing me to my limits. All the hacks are out turn on the spot for home, im not aware of there being any circular routes but will ask around and look on a map.

It's 90% roads, and he is fine with traffic he isnt a spooky pony far from it, there is a route i can take that leads to a great bit of open moorland-but its quite a way out and i just dont have the energy to fight him all that way!

I have had another much much more experienced than me ride him, and he did the same routine with her, but this rider was able to stop him turning with one hand and use the whip with the other, which currently im just not strong enough to do, if she continued to ride him would he not just go back to his old ways when im on board?

On the ground he is so loving, in the field he comes when called and follows me around like a dog, lungeing and schooling has him pulling for the gate, but ive got that now and can read him and sort him out before he tries it on, out on a hack he gives no warning that i can see, he has no voice commands currently (im working on that on the lunge)

Saddle has been checked - all good

As far as setting off with gusto, the yard gate goes straight out onto a main road so we normally have to sit and wait before we can go (this is normally his first 'stop') but after that it worked well we had no messing around. But the problem with that is i need to have a riding partner, as im not confident hacking him alone with his current behaviour.

May have to get myself a schooling whip, ill try the lungeing in circles too (as we have been doing lungeing to teach him voice commands anyway) and they are all very quiet lane's we go down.
 
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I would suggest schooling him -does he do it then when he is working? Have you had him long?

If you can only hack then even on hack home you must still school him, get him working on the bit, Halting, half halts, etc.. he needs to do what you want him to do.

Is there a different exit out of the yard you could try to break the habit. Take Routes that do not involve turning around for home also.

Can you get someone to walk behind that can clap the horse to move, Or use lunge line to 'slap' behind. (obviously they need to be not directly behind incase he kicks)

The trick is also to try to anticipate the stop - And positively ride them on before they actually plant. Try keep him moving - Any direction, circles etc. keep him interested in doing things, do not give him time to think about stopping. You cant just sit and chat with your mates with this one at the minute, you need to concentrate on getting him working and thinking, all about distraction. Small rides ending on positive notes

I would suggest someone else ride him, would your instructor perhaps? See if he is taking the mickey. He doesn't want to go out and he can get around you. A horse that knaps usually knows who they can take the mickey out of

Its no fun when they buck when smacked - Do you get nervous when this happens? Would you smack him again for example. His buck probably throws you, and affects you trying to make him move, thus he wins and cycle starts again.
 
goldengirl26 said:
I have had another much much more experienced than me ride him, and he did the same routine with her, but this rider was able to stop him turning with one hand and use the whip with the other, which currently im just not strong enough to do, if she continued to ride him would he not just go back to his old ways when im on board?
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And I suspect that almost entirely the issue. He's learnt he can, so he does. I bet he had one or two fights with the more experienced rider then didn't bother trying again?
Basically you need to learnt to ride better and deal with his behaviour properly. Until you can effectively tell him to cut it out and stop messing about, he's going to continue*behaving the same. If you haven't got the skill and ability to stop him doing it, you need to learn! Get lessons with him and have the instructor help you with the hacking issue. Driving a reluctant horse forwards is a skill that can be taught. You'll initially have a fight on your hands as he strops about finally being made to do as he's told but after that they give up and behave.
 
When I have had this problem with the Appy, I have held the reins in one hand and slapped the spare end on my arm and her neck, this works BUT you must be ready for a speedy move off and make sure you don't sock him in the mouth, thus stopping him.
 
YorksG said:
When I have had this problem with the Appy, I have held the reins in one hand and slapped the spare end on my arm and her neck, this works BUT you must be ready for a speedy move off and make sure you don't sock him in the mouth, thus stopping him.
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Yes, I meant to say a whip whop can work really well for some!
 
charliecrisps said:
Yes, I meant to say a whip whop can work really well for some!
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Yes, they can work really well but the OP is currently unable to take hands off the reins to smack the horse. Until that is addressed then rein slapping or a whip whop won't work. And it's not the smack that works anyways, it's the "do as you're damn well told, you little &$#*" attitude behind it that makes them go forwards!
 
Kallibear said:
Yes, they can work really well but the OP is currently unable to take hands off the reins to smack the horse. Until that is addressed then rein slapping or a whip whop won't work. And it's not the smack that works anyways, it's the "do as you're damn well told, you little &$#*" attitude behind it that makes them go forwards!
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Oh silly me, I didn't read it properly then.
 
I have been riding him for 4 months now. I do make him work on the way back, and try on the way out but his behaviour makes it very hard as it just makes him plant still.

I am looking into a different exit and a circular route to hack.

Im trying to anticipate a stop, then i find myself kicking and flapping almost constantly and then stop cuz thats not good riding and then we're back to square one.

I do get nervous when i know i need to use the whip, because i know he's going to buck, and it goes:
1. use the whip - buck
2. he pulls his head away and round and starts to turn around
3. i then need 2 hands to correct the turning/direction - then we go back to step 1
Once i start this cycle though i dont stop until hes moving in the direction i want him to.
 
goldengirl26 said:
I have been riding him for 4 months now. I do make him work on the way back, and try on the way out but his behaviour makes it very hard as it just makes him plant still.

I am looking into a different exit and a circular route to hack.

Im trying to anticipate a stop, then i find myself kicking and flapping almost constantly and then stop cuz thats not good riding and then we're back to square one.

I do get nervous when i know i need to use the whip, because i know he's going to buck, and it goes:
1. use the whip - buck
2. he pulls his head away and round and starts to turn around
3. i then need 2 hands to correct the turning/direction - then we go back to step 1
Once i start this cycle though i dont stop until hes moving in the direction i want him to.
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Id go back to schooling and Get a really long whip. I wouldn't hack out for a while - Id be working on the commands and in the school. Work on lunging and Voice commands.
You need to be putting leg on at the same time, with whip reinforcing. Keep hacks very short so you have the enthusiasm and strength. He should know your tone of voice and that you mean it, then reinforced by leg on and whip if required. I personally smack my own boot and this work well enough as the noise shocks.
 
goldengirl26 said:
Im trying to anticipate a stop, then i find myself kicking and flapping almost constantly and then stop cuz thats not good riding and then we're back to square one.

I do get nervous when i know i need to use the whip, because i know he's going to buck, and it goes:
1. use the whip - buck
2. he pulls his head away and round and starts to turn around
3. i then need 2 hands to correct the turning/direction - then we go back to step 1
Once i start this cycle though i dont stop until hes moving in the direction i want him to.
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You need to get some help and lessons and learn how to ride his behaviour properly. You need to learn to be secure and confident to sit his temper tantrums so you can continue to tell him to get on with it. Going different routes and circle will do no good at all unless he learns that having a strop won't achieve anything.

Do you have a good instructor? Someone in your area could maybe suggest one if not.
 
Some horses are just very naughty! It is going to be down to persistence and trying to ride him out as much as possible i.e. each day so that he gets used to it. Easier to do when we get the longer daylight hours. A nice thin and long schooling whip may help but tap him on his neck/shoulder as he is less likely to buck than if you hit him on the rump. If you go out on the road then make sure that you are both wearing hi-viz and a long sleeved hi-viz jacket so that other road users can see your hand signals more clearly. Bets of luck.
 
I agree that the best tactic is to keep the horse straight when he tries to turn, and to give him some good smacks to send him forward. When I dealt with this sort of issue on a lazy and evasive mare, I added a neckstrap to the ensemble. I found it a lot easier to hold the head straight with one hand when I anchored the left hand on the rein and neckstrap simultaneously (if that makes sense). I could then use the right hand for the whip. (The mare tended to nap to the right.) I also made sure I had her on a short rein before the trouble started. This all worked, and after about 4-6 weeks the issue was sorted and did not re-occur.
 
My last mare used to plant herself whilst hacking out alone. My trick was to turn and head for home for a couple of strides then turn back in the direction I wanted to go and push into a forward going trot. She soon got the message and stopped doing it. You've just to anticipate their next move! :-)
 
Thank you for all your help, i think i will take it bk to the school ring until he works with voice, i realise this will take a long time, and find a circular route and see if the lady that rode him for me before will hack him out, as im just not a good enough rider yet.
Then by the summer we may have got somewhere!

Thank you all
 
Does he always turn the same way when you've smacked him and he's bucked? Slightly agricultural, but maybe stick a side rein on the opposite side to the way he turns, so he can't get his head round, then you won't have to use two hands to stop him turning. You could also try a bit with full cheeks - they make it easier for you to steer and harder for him to go where you don't want him to.

In an emergency, i have been known to wedge my hand (still holding the rein) behind my knee, to stop a horse spinning
 
Didn't want to read and run but good luck. Definitely get some help from your instructor as it sounds like he's trying it on a bit and too smart for his own good! He does seem like a fab pony and as you gain your confidence in riding through this, it will be worth all this initial work in the end.
 
goldengirl26 said:
Thank you for all your help, i think i will take it bk to the school ring until he works with voice, i realise this will take a long time, and find a circular route and see if the lady that rode him for me before will hack him out, as im just not a good enough rider yet.
Then by the summer we may have got somewhere!

Thank you all
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I don't think voice training is going to help much. He knows the basic leg and rein aids, and he ignores them when it suits him, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if he ignores a voice aid just as much when he's having a moment. i really think you need to get some help, and get his behaviour nipped in the bud, firmly. He's taking the p out of you.
 
goldengirl26 said:
Thank you for all your help, i think i will take it bk to the school ring until he works with voice, i realise this will take a long time, and find a circular route and see if the lady that rode him for me before will hack him out, as im just not a good enough rider yet.
Then by the summer we may have got somewhere!

Thank you all
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None of that, bar possibly his previous rider, is going to help you. As Auslander said, why will he listen to your voice when he's perfectly happy ignoring your legs aids?

You need to get some lesson to improve how you deal with his tantrums. Auslander's side reins idea is a good one too but if you improve your balance, seat and confidence, you won't need them.
 
I had a New Forester gelding that use to do that sort of thing. One minute he would go forward and then the next he said no. He had been owned by a young girl that was not very strong and allowed him to do what he wanted to do.

He would go cross country and win and then the next class he said no. I found he loved to go somewhere different so started to do Endurance with him. He became very successful in doing that.

I had backed him into a hedge , I had people lead him and also people would put a broom up his backside =. Sometimes he would go and sometimes he would not. I never gave up and I never turned him around for home this was an indication that he had won.
 
haven't read all the replies but our lad did this...so I backed him...sometimes for a whole 300 yards at times...it worked he knew which ever way he truned he was walking...eventually he realised forwards was much easier...the good thing is he has the most fabulous rein back now lol
 
Our big lad went through a spate of this when i took him on from my daughter, i was slightly nervous (my daughter is not) hence the boy taking the micky out of me. He would just stop when he wanted, if i gave him a tap with the whip, he would buck, the more i tapped, the bigger the buck!

I tried sitting it out, having someone walking with me, all that you have done.

One day i just thought, no, you ****** your not doing this with me anymore. So when he stopped i turned him in a tight circle, then kicked him on, no bucking because i had not used the whip, the first time i used this method we were dizzy with the amount of turns. He backed up further than we went forward but i did not give up and 10 mins later low and behold off we went.

It took about 3 hacks out with lots of turning before he finally realised i was not giving in, he now hacks out and past anything without any fuss. He occasionally tries it on if he thinks i have forgotten and with one turn he almost groans with the realization that i am on to him.

This is something you need to tackle and you alone i'm afraid. Good luck
 
Kallibear said:
You need to get some help and lessons and learn how to ride his behaviour properly. You need to learn to be secure and confident to sit his temper tantrums so you can continue to tell him to get on with it. Going different routes and circle will do no good at all unless he learns that having a strop won't achieve anything.

Do you have a good instructor? Someone in your area could maybe suggest one if not.
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This ^^^ sounds like good advice.
My response to a horse napping is to simply turn them in a very small circle, keep the leg on and ride forward, don't give the horse time to think...it muddles them slightly, makes them more dependent on the rider and seems to give them confidence to walk on. It is also down to rider confidence, which we all know is a very personal thing. Try this somewhere you feel safe the first time, circle a few times if you have to. Good Luck.
EDITED to say.....
Oops it seems I was posting at the same time as Mahoganybay!! We said the same thing more or less. The circle turning is a gentle way of saying " I am in charge around here"
 
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