The Horse The Human The Truth - Ribbleton - Living the Horse

[Blurr]

I've been getting emails from Living The Horse and have finally opened them wondering what I signed up for. It's Ribbleton Horsemanship (I must've asked for more info at some point) under another name. Ribbleton Horsemanship is discussed on another thread re expense of course (£4,000), hard selling to people in a bad place with their horse and Paulette Ribbleton (now Clark) never explaining how her method of horse training works except to say its not like anything else. Devotees showed up under PR's direction but were unable to shed light on ... anything, really.

There are trailers for the docuseries, called The Horse The Human The Truth, and a description on IMDb which a quick google will bring up, it starts with the following:

Series Synopsis The Horse, The Human, The Truth is an in-depth exploration of the correlation between domestic violence in the human world and that of socially sanctioned horse training methods, which tragically employ the same tactics of mental and emotional manipulation and domination, otherwise known as coercive control.
and includes

Importantly, it will assist the audience in seeing through the disturbing rise of trendy gentle types of training, which are in fact highly manipulative and damaging, and sadly enticing to unwitting people searching for gentler interactions with their horses

It's not on Netflix yet and you can get it (for free, it looks like) on the Living the Horse website. I haven't, yet.

I've ventured further into the emails and website and she's asking for donations (money and land) to build horse sanctuaries of 2,000 to 3,000 acres for c.500 horses each with horses living as horses. Of course, linked to education etc of Joe Public as these things always are.

 

[littleshetland]

I've been getting emails from Living The Horse and have finally opened them wondering what I signed up for. It's Ribbleton Horsemanship (I must've asked for more info at some point) under another name. Ribbleton Horsemanship is discussed on another thread re expense of course (£4,000), hard selling to people in a bad place with their horse and Paulette Ribbleton (now Clark) never explaining how her method of horse training works except to say its not like anything else. Devotees showed up under PR's direction but were unable to shed light on ... anything, really.

There are trailers for the docuseries, called The Horse The Human The Truth, and a description on IMDb which a quick google will bring up, it starts with the following:

Series Synopsis The Horse, The Human, The Truth is an in-depth exploration of the correlation between domestic violence in the human world and that of socially sanctioned horse training methods, which tragically employ the same tactics of mental and emotional manipulation and domination, otherwise known as coercive control.
and includes

Importantly, it will assist the audience in seeing through the disturbing rise of trendy gentle types of training, which are in fact highly manipulative and damaging, and sadly enticing to unwitting people searching for gentler interactions with their horses

It's not on Netflix yet and you can get it (for free, it looks like) on the Living the Horse website. I haven't, yet.

I've ventured further into the emails and website and she's asking for donations (money and land) to build horse sanctuaries of 2,000 to 3,000 acres for c.500 horses each with horses living as horses. Of course, linked to education etc of Joe Public as these things always are.

Somebody on this forum once described this as ‘dribbleton’, that made me chuckle …….

 

[smolmaus]

Series Synopsis The Horse, The Human, The Truth is an in-depth exploration of the correlation between domestic violence in the human world and that of socially sanctioned horse training methods, which tragically employ the same tactics of mental and emotional manipulation and domination, otherwise known as coercive control.
and includes

Importantly, it will assist the audience in seeing through the disturbing rise of trendy gentle types of training, which are in fact highly manipulative and damaging, and sadly enticing to unwitting people searching for gentler interactions with their horses

Had me in the first half, not gonna lie...

If it pops up on UK Netflix I might watch it, just to see how she shapes any sort of behaviour without any sort of reinforcement or "manipulation." I don't want to manipulate or bribe her into creating more content though, so can I give her "clicks"? Is that coercion? You certainly couldn't ethically give her $4000, imagine the emotional damage that might do to her.

Somebody on this forum once described this as ‘dribbleton’, that made me chuckle …….

The website content is certainly living up to this description

 

[Blurr]

Yes, if this does pop up on Netflix, I'm concerned it's not going to help our social licence to keep riding given recent scandals and publicity. It's worrying that we may now all be labelled as suffering, or having suffered from, DV.

 

[ycbm]

Imagine being married to a really kind man who cleans the house and cooks your meals, and trains you to willingly participate in learning to dance or going for a long walk in the country, and then being told you are in a coercive relationship!

This women is doing no service to the sufferers and survivors of coercive domestic abuse.
.

 

[PurpleSpots]

Imagine being married to a really kind man who cleans the house and cooks your meals, and trains you to willingly participate in learning to dance or going for a long walk in the country, and then being told you are in a coercive relationship!

This women is doing no service to the sufferers and survivors of coercive domestic abuse.
.

If 'trains' were switched for 'invites' I'd fully agree with this post. The word 'trains' is a total sticking point for me though.

Equally, imagine if instead of referring to 'training' a horse, we thought of it as 'inviting' them - puts a whole other spin on things I think.

 

[Nocturnal]

I invite my horse not to steal from other horses dinners as we walk down the yard.
That has a nice ring to it

 

[smolmaus]

If 'trains' were switched for 'invites' I'd fully agree with this post. The word 'trains' is a total sticking point for me though.

Equally, imagine if instead of referring to 'training' a horse, we thought of it as 'inviting' them - puts a whole other spin on things I think.

Kinda, I mean human children need to be "toilet trained" and trained how to tie their shoelaces and trained not to hit other children so they can be welcome in society. You can do that in a number of ways that range from inviting to coercive to abusive.

Imagine being married to a really kind man who cleans the house and cooks your meals, and trains you to willingly participate in learning to dance or going for a long walk in the country, and then being told you are in a coercive relationship!

This women is doing no service to the sufferers and survivors of coercive domestic abuse.
.

To stretch the comparison, our horses didn't choose us, or the life they lead. So more like an arranged marriage. But doesn't mean you can't both learn to get on together without anybody being coerced!

ETA: I do think Sadie chose me as she saw a soft target and turned on the charm till I was coerced into having her.

 

[PurpleSpots]

I think there are different types of interactions though, and where many would term it 'training' it would tend to be in a scenario where the human wants the horse to do something for the human's gain or pleasure, rather than a scenario of basic care or setting up safe social boundaries between horse and human (or child and world, if you will).

If a human wants something from a horse which doesn't actively benefit the horse and actually has the potential to damage the horse in any way (physically or mentally) then I think we should consider the term 'inviting' as being a better frame for the interactions than 'training'. Because then it is not a requirement, the horse has the ability to consent or not, and thinking of it as an invitation puts the onus on the human to consider that the horse's answer might be 'No, I don't want to' for whatever reason, and to either find a better approach which does engage the horse, or accept that there is another reason for why the horse doesn't want to be involved.

Basic handling and care is slightly different, because it would compromise the horse's wellbeing to not be wormed/have feet trimmed/be able to have injuries tended to/etc, but it can still be done with the horse thinking it was a great idea both during and afterwards. Same as the best way to get anyone to do something they need to do is to get them feeling it is and was a great idea. But I still think the word 'training' in this sort of scenario doesn't quite sit right with the mindset we should have when approaching them. I'm not sure what a better word would be just now though. Supporting perhaps.

'Training', the word, is towards a finite thing, the only real focus is on the end point, the success. There's so much room for coercion and abuse within this context. Other words are better placed I think. Using other words and mindsets doesn't stop you being an effective trainer, but it does limit the use of coercive and abusive methods to achieve the training. Really there's alot more to change for context than just one word, but I suppose my point is that even one word can make the world of difference.



'I'm training my horse to learn half pass.' vs 'I'm inviting my horse to learn half pass.'

'I'm training my horse to take a wormer.' vs 'I'm supporting my horse to take a wormer.'



And if you wanted you could swop in 'child' in place of 'horse' I think. The first phrase relating to things the parent thinks would be good for the child - learning a sport, musical instrument, etc - and the second relating to things which are necessary for them - social interactions, potty training, schoolwork, etc.

 

[smolmaus]

I think there are different types of interactions though, and where many would term it 'training' it would tend to be in a scenario where the human wants the horse to do something for the human's gain or pleasure, rather than a scenario of basic care or setting up safe social boundaries between horse and human (or child and world, if you will).

That's a very well made point, and yes I think I am with you now.

I personally do very little "training" purely for human benefit tbh, we are stuck on "I'm sorry but you do need to do a little bit of actual work sometimes for your own benefit"

 

[PurpleSpots]

That's a very well made point, and yes I think I am with you now.

I personally do very little "training" purely for human benefit tbh, we are stuck on "I'm sorry but you do need to do a little bit of actual work sometimes for your own benefit"

The thing is though, if the stuff for human benefit becomes an invitation to the horse and it's approached from that mindset, it becomes immensely more positive and fulfilling and inspiring for the human too.

It's one of those almost too good to be true, infinitely expanding, win-win-win-win-win situations!


(Also, couldn't work out how to respond to your post as I think many emojis would be appropriate, so finally settled on a straightforward 'like'!)

 

[Blurr]

What does an invitation look like in practice? How is it different to a cue?

 

[smolmaus]

The thing is though, if the stuff for human benefit becomes an invitation to the horse and it's approached from that mindset, it becomes immensely more positive and fulfilling and inspiring for the human too.

It's one of those almost too good to be true, infinitely expanding, win-win-win-win-win situations!


(Also, couldn't work out how to respond to your post as I think many emojis would be appropriate, so finally settled on a straightforward 'like'!)

Actually perfectly encapsulated in some of our recent experience. I have done the majority of groundwork and "cope with life" teaching with my pony with R+, but was struggling until recently with transferring that to the riding side of things, so pony was backed and mostly ridden with pressure-release and the occasional reinforcer but I knew I wasn't doing a good job helping her make connections. She just never really found relaxation in the ridden work, even though she was still learning and doing her best. So got an expert in and within a couple of sessions I had less tension, really solution-seeking behaviour that I just wasn't getting before with the ridden work. The key was less rushing and pushing and asking and managing and more letting her offer and then rewarding. And it is so much more positive and with more forward progress, now that forward progress isn't the goal

 

[PurpleSpots]

Actually perfectly encapsulated in some of our recent experience. I have done the majority of groundwork and "cope with life" teaching with my pony with R+, but was struggling until recently with transferring that to the riding side of things, so pony was backed and mostly ridden with pressure-release and the occasional reinforcer but I knew I wasn't doing a good job helping her make connections. She just never really found relaxation in the ridden work, even though she was still learning and doing her best. So got an expert in and within a couple of sessions I had less tension, really solution-seeking behaviour that I just wasn't getting before with the ridden work. The key was less rushing and pushing and asking and managing and more letting her offer and then rewarding. And it is so much more positive and with more forward progress, now that forward progress isn't the goal

It's one of those real 'less is immensely more' things isn't it!!

And totally doesn't seem possible until you've experienced it I think.

 

[PurpleSpots]

What does an invitation look like in practice? How is it different to a cue?

There would usually still be a cue, but it's the intention and mindset behind the situation, and what happens to the horse if he declines to do the required thing.

Generally, the way alot of training is carried out tends to involve some form of restraint to a greater or lesser degree, and some form of pressure to a greater or lesser degree, sometimes escalating. There may or may not be a reward - sometimes it's just the end of the session that is the reward, giving relief it's over.

I would consider an invitation to be free of restraint - or at the very most with a passive hold on a loose leadrope so the horse is free to leave or feel they can guide the handler away - and no negative consequence for the horse if they didn't do as hoped. Hopefully positive consequences, but at least no negative ones.

I realise that you could use the definitions of +R vs +P etc, but I think it's easier to put the better intention into practice, not fall into the trap of focusing solely on what kind of system you're using and get trapped in your head, and allow the horse's responses to be the guiding thing by using words that better describe that intention so that the approach to the training is agreeable for the horse.

It's just one aspect of the whole human-horse relationship I think, but reading ycbm's post above, the word 'trained' felt uncomfortable for me - if I were in that situation, where is my ability to say I don't like it without either causing difficulties with the other person, or do I just have to go along with it therefore compromising myself either physically or mentally? I don't feel it should be any different with our horses.

I think we as people often have a hard time embracing the fact that we are all different, and we all think differently. And therefore that what we might like might not be enjoyable for someone else. If a person is able to express that they don't like something they can, but some people can't, and although horses often try, many people just see those expressions and protests as things that need to be trained out, because the horse is not yet complying, because the horse is difficult or however they describe it. You can't just assume that a person or horse going along with something means that they are enjoying it too, unless you have given them a genuine opportunity to say 'No'. I don't think it's ok for another being to suffer in any way just to give another enjoyment, so that's why I would use a word like 'invite' rather than 'train' in this sort of scenario.

I think it's fine to say 'I like this, I think you might like it too, would you like to try it and see how you feel about it but it's ok if you don't like it?', but I don't think it's ok to say 'I like this, therefore I am going to train you to like it too.' or worse, 'I like it when you do this, so I am going to train you to do this for me.'. I don't think you can truly train another being to like something, even with the best of intentions, because liking something comes from them, you cannot place your feelings into them. And so then it is also about respect of autonomy.

One tiny word, but significant implications!

 

[Fellewell]

What does an invitation look like in practice? How is it different to a cue?

A cue is time specific and requires direction which is understood by previous guidance or repetition of the cue or direction (used to be called training). An invitation suggests that the invitee has time to consider and reflect on whether they wish to avail themselves of your kind invitation (unless this involves food or field buddies you might be disappointed)
I can't wait for an explanation on this disturbing rise of trendy, gentle types of training which are in fact highly manipulative and damaging. What are they offering? Are you sure it's not some kind of sneaky link to cosmetic dentistry after you've tried these methods?