The Lepto debate.

[Clodagh]

This is stolen from a friend on FB. I have asked for verification. If it is true, I would not lepto jab any more.
What do you think?
But when you look at the research for lepto I think a 2014 based on a survey of 472 vet practices rerported 13 suspected cases in dogs, only 3 confirmed (one of which was vaccinated). AND 50-60 human cases of lepto a year......... So 3 cases a year in dogs warrants annual vaccination of 15million UK and Irish dogs with a drug known to have killed but 50-60 human cases dont need vaccination?!

 

[ester]

Surely you need to know the total number of veterinary practices in the UK to know how many cases a year that represents?

 

[SusieT]

This sort of post on facebook is totally irrelevant. If you really want to know - contact the local animla health surveillance departmnet.

 

[rara007]

Also bare in mind most sick ones won’t get tested, it’s not a clear cut or cheap test and takes time. Give your local practices a call to see if they’ve seen much but Im sure they’ll be happy to discuss what vaccines are due when and think about the risk benefit for yours. We have it locally for sure so as mine spends plenty of time around poultry and ditches it’s a no brainer. There’s no debate for him.
1/2 of annually vaccinated dogs die within 6 months of vaccination remember!

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/gundogs/health/leptospirosis-in-dogs-what-you-need-to-know-98253

 

[Clodagh]

I do get my younger ones done annually, but see so much negative about it and my main girl was definitely poorly after it two years ago (although fine last time).
Mine are in water all the time and I annually decide to go with it, but always after much dithering!
As I said, I have asked for verification and if it is a proper scientific survey then I would take it into account.

 

[Red-1]

I tested Hector the last 2 years for parvo/distemper (he did not need vaccinating), but I think it was the Lepto that the vet said to vaccinate against annually. I asked for clarification and they said that within the last year they had seen some cases.

I am no dog aficionado, but I do trust this vet, she is OK about me not vaccinating for the others.

I will be interested in any further info, as Hekkie did not need worming (including lungworm) for 2 years now, the one annual vaccination for (I think) Lepto is the only thing he has had, as the vet insisted the protection from this jab in particular only lasted for a year.

 

[{97702}]

I find it interesting that there is a debate really, as personally I haven't seen much negativity about it? My vets changed to the "new" vaccine which isn't new any more (Lepto 4??) a few years ago and I had all mine done as they explained that they had seen confirmed cases in the area.

I'm very lucky that I have never had a dog (or horse) which has had an adverse reaction to vaccination so far - but I know this could easily change!

 

[Clodagh]

I tested Hector the last 2 years for parvo/distemper (he did not need vaccinating), but I think it was the Lepto that the vet said to vaccinate against annually. I asked for clarification and they said that within the last year they had seen some cases.

I am no dog aficionado, but I do trust this vet, she is OK about me not vaccinating for the others.

I will be interested in any further info, as Hekkie did not need worming (including lungworm) for 2 years now, the one annual vaccination for (I think) Lepto is the only thing he has had, as the vet insisted the protection from this jab in particular only lasted for a year.

Like you, I do trust my vets. I haven't ever titre tested but all my lots jabs are every two years, bar lepto. It is the constant drip of negativity sbout it that gets me!
I had my son innoculated with MMR, so tend to 'do what I am told' generally.

 

[Clodagh]

I find it interesting that there is a debate really, as personally I haven't seen much negativity about it? My vets changed to the "new" vaccine which isn't new any more (Lepto 4??) a few years ago and I had all mine done as they explained that they had seen confirmed cases in the area.

I'm very lucky that I have never had a dog (or horse) which has had an adverse reaction to vaccination so far - but I know this could easily change!

There seems to be debate about it on FB groups and on here, that I see.

 

[Leo Walker]

Mine dont have it. They get puppy jabs and thats it. They've never had lepto or kennel cough. Its a calculated risk on my behalf. There are far too many anecdotal incidents of reactions or dead dogs, and while I'm aware that almost all of these cases arent investigated or proven etc, etc, there are cases that are investigated and proven so it is happening to some degree. Last time I checked we didnt have it in this area anyway, or at least local vets had had no reported cases. It may have changed now. The lepto jab doesnt cover all the strain anyway so theres still a risk even if you have it.

I havent seen much about it for ages now, but there was a huge fuss made when lepto 4 came out and for about a year afterwards.

This is one of the articles from that time. I'm not claiming its well written, its just one of the top google hits that doesnt come from a website with natural in the name

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/02/dogs-dying-after-having-protective-vaccine-owners-claim/

 

[Red-1]

Like you, I do trust my vets. I haven't ever titre tested but all my lots jabs are every two years, bar lepto. It is the constant drip of negativity sbout it that gets me!
I had my son innoculated with MMR, so tend to 'do what I am told' generally.

My dog does not go into kennels so I did not do the full titre test (£140) but had the Vaccicheck (£40) that says he is positive for antibodies so no vaccination required. It does not give a precise level, just Positive, negative or unsure. If it were unsure or negative I would vaccinate, but he had a strong positive for antibodies.

She said I could leave it for 2 years before checking again.

Yes, she also said there had been confirmed cases in the area.

I do wonder about how much people worm, as he was tested for the last 2 years he has not actually been wormed for 3 years now, and had a zero count (poo test plus a blood test for lungworm).

 

[{97702}]

That's interesting Red-1, I always feel I should titre test my dogs. They are vaccinated annually for lepto and bi-annually for the rest, but is it really necessary?

I find it interesting how worming advice has changed so much as well, it has increased from twice a year.... to four times a year... and now we should do it every month!

 

[Red-1]

That's interesting Red-1, I always feel I should titre test my dogs. They are vaccinated annually for lepto and bi-annually for the rest, but is it really necessary?

I find it interesting how worming advice has changed so much as well, it has increased from twice a year.... to four times a year... and now we should do it every month!

I ETA my last post after you posted...

I do wonder about how much people worm, as he was tested for the last 2 years he has not actually been wormed for 3 years now, and had a zero count (poo test plus a blood test for lungworm).
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/the-lepto-debate.772519/#SfkTWemivAxRc6Bw.99

 

[{97702}]

Do your vets do the testing for you? I always used Westgate Labs for the horse but I don't think they cover dogs!

 

[Red-1]

Do your vets do the testing for you? I always used Westgate Labs for the horse but I don't think they cover dogs!

Hekkie is a scrap of a dog, was a stray and nearly dies of pancreatitis. The vet had never heard of poo counting for worms, they only do small animals, but I insisted as he is rather fragile.

They had to look it up to see what to do!

They indulged me, but then when I first worm counted over 20 years ago the equine vet thought I was being excessive too as he had never done a worm count on a horse unless it was actually ill, not as a preventative. When Hekkie's vet was telling me that worm counting was just not done for dogs I told her about the horse, and she agreed that it probably was a good idea.

I have to take samples from 3 deparate poos, the results are back in 3 days. I don't know where they send them.

I wonder of Westgate would do them?

This visit, with the Lepto vaccination, the Vaccicheck blood test for parvo etc, the blood test for lung worm and the poo count was £139.

 

[SusieT]

'
Mine dont have it. They get puppy jabs and thats it. They've never had lepto or kennel cough. Its a calculated risk on my behalf.' If you don't titre test then it is not a calculated risk - it's an entirely lazy risk based on no evidence whatsoever. Let's hope you have several thousand set aside (not insurance as they won't be covered) if they get parvo.

 

[SusieT]

I asked the worm count company about things like encysted redworm in horses- do you get similar in dogs- they couldn't answer me and I believe there can be only intermittent shedding of the worms - but it would be nice to worm count dogs rather than worm automatically - I have just not seen anything to suggest anyone has properly looked at what is the best option.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I think Westgate do canine worm 🐛 counts.

I haven’t vaccinated my lot for years. I do puppy jabs then 1st booster then nothing. I think I might titre test this year.

 

[{97702}]

I've messaged Westgate Labs to ask them - they may say 'no way' but I think it might be an emerging market for them If only it was as relatively innocuous as collecting for horse worm counts....

 

[SOS]

Your unvaccinated animals might be fine, but it’s likely that is down to herd immunity. If we all stop vaccinating I’m sure there will be more cases.

Not vaccinating against Parvo is risky not only to your dog but others too. I have been unfortunate to see unvaccinated dogs with parvovirus (obviously more commonly puppies) and watching a dog in that much pain with blood coming out of both ends for a disease that can be minimised by vaccinating is heart breaking.

 

[Aru]

Number's for these sort of things are often way off the mark if you look at official reports in Veterinary.

Lepto is very rarely tested for in clinical practice. The test is expensive, it doesnt tend to change the outcome for the dog and we barrier nurse suspect cases anyway.

Veterinary often comes down to finances. We test for parvo regularly as its a much cheaper snap test and it gives a idea of prognosis but its not reportable to anyone when it occurs.

Off the top of my head I can think of 5 suspect cases for lepto that I seen in 2 years of mixed practice at home...not endemic in Oz so we dont vaccinate for it at all here.
2 died but no postmortum(again finances)so lepto was never confirmed but highly suspicious based on clinical signs. Others lived and were treated as supect cases hospitalised for a few days then longterm antibioitcs given.
Seen dozens of cases in cattle where its common but now thankfully vaccinatable for and now a few farmers who contracted Weils disease(lepto in humans)as well.
Lepto isn't that uncommon,its a bacterial infection that can be picked up from contaminated water and rats urine and its considered endemic in the uk and Ireland.

I vaccinated my dog annually and gave the vacc in spring to have maximum cover in the higher risk months when I was in Ireland. Its not the most effective vaccine but I'm a big fan of prevention when it comes to severe and in leptos case zoonotic disease.

Vaccine reactions are rare. I've seen a 4 ones that I'd consider significant-facial swelling and illness.(Running a fever after a vaccine isn't in my opinion a severe vaccine reaction-thats an expected responce to stimulating the immune system. Much less common in dogs then children though.)They all survived with treatment. Only one of those was possibly related to a lepto vaccine and incidentally most were dachshunds. Thats 5 years as a student and almost 6 years working the last 3 and a half giving mutilpe vaccines daily... I like those odds.

Animals get sick all year round. Sometimes we get incidental illness around the timeframes of vaccines and medications. Correlation does not nessecarily equal causation. I've seen and read of people blaming medications and vaccines for all manner of things when they are grieving a pet or struggling to come to terms with a diagnosis. Life sucks sometimes and all things die of something...but rational thinking needs to be applied as well.

I like the idea of titre testing rather then just assuming protection. Heard of enough dogs failing the rabies titre testing back when it used to be done to travel to be wary of individual varience.
However its outrangeously expensive to do individually where I am so will be jabbing my pup on a regular schedule becauses shes very high risk. Also give bordella /influenza annually as well. I hate calling that one the kennel cough vaccine...kennel cough is a catch all term for pretty much any upper resp disease in dogs...its like how we call simple colds having the flu. Those 2 bugs are whats actually covered for in the vaccine...and influenza is not a mild illness. The last outbreak in the us was causing severe clinical signs spread rapidly and had about a 10 percent death rate because it swings into pneumonia so often.

Once you've seen parvo and distemper in action and watch the animals suffer and often die you learn an appreciation of vaccination. Herd immunity is important in controlling outbreaks and spread of disease. It baffles me when people dont want to be protected from these things....but of course I'm just a money hungry vet in the pocket of the pharmaceutical companies

 

[Leo Walker]

'
Mine dont have it. They get puppy jabs and thats it. They've never had lepto or kennel cough. Its a calculated risk on my behalf.' If you don't titre test then it is not a calculated risk - it's an entirely lazy risk based on no evidence whatsoever. Let's hope you have several thousand set aside (not insurance as they won't be covered) if they get parvo.

Its based on lots of evidence actually, none of which is herd immunity. The calculated risk part refers only to the lepto which is what was being discussed here.

 

[Leo Walker]

I asked the worm count company about things like encysted redworm in horses- do you get similar in dogs- they couldn't answer me and I believe there can be only intermittent shedding of the worms - but it would be nice to worm count dogs rather than worm automatically - I have just not seen anything to suggest anyone has properly looked at what is the best option.

Worm counting for dogs has been in place for several years, its not a new thing. Its as effective and reliable as equine worm counts, which means quite but you cant ever rely on it solely.

 

[Leo Walker]

but of course I'm just a money hungry vet in the pocket of the pharmaceutical companies

I'm the first to say vets probably dont charge enough, but they do over vaccinate. This is from the WVSA guidelines

Dogs that have responded to vaccination with MLV core vaccines maintain a solid immunity (immunological memory) for many years in the absence of any repeat vaccination (Bohm et al. 2004, Mouzin et al. 2004, Schultz 2006, Mitchell et al. 2012) [EB1].

You can see why the more rabid anti vaxxers say that when confronted with the majority of people who just blindly vaccinate year in year out, never questioning it.

and this

An adult dog that had received a complete course of core vaccinations as a puppy, including a 26 or 52 week booster, but that may not have been vaccinated regularly as an adult, requires only a single dose of MLV core vaccine to boost immunity (Mouzin et al. 2004, Mitchell et al. 2012) [EB1].

Good luck finding a vet that will do this. I ended up with a very sick dog after a double dose of vaccinations that he didnt need.

And I have never, ever even heard of a vet suggesting titre testing as an option. From my personal experience, the majority dont want to know or quote ridiculously high prices as they arent interested in doing it. I called more than 10 practices last time. This is something that other people have told me is the same for them. Perhaps its regional. I dont think so though having lived in 3 different counties in the last few years separated by 100s of miles, but maybe I'm just unlucky.

And I have seen a dog with parvo, he was one of the very few lucky ones that survived. It was 30 years ago now probably and I still clearly remember it. I wouldnt wish it on anyone, and I'm damn certainly not relying on herd immunity to prevent that from happening to my dogs. They are far to precious to me for that.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Lepto is a hideous disease. I live beside a river so it's a no-brainer for me.

KC I'm a bit meh about. Mine have had strains which weren't covered by the vaccine.

 

[rara007]

I don’t know where people get the idea that everything is given to everything year on year as standard, that’s certainly not been the case anywhere I’ve worked. And looks a small minority in the poll we did. The only awkward person I had in for vaccines this week (complete with online articles to stop me over vaccinating) insisted his 2yo terrier was given DHP as well as lepto but the older dog (also not due DHP) only got lepto. I explained to him both only needed lepto but him and his anti vaccine article were having none of it!

https://www.facebook.com/veterinaryvoicesuk/photos/a.1012243135606894/1041700285994512?type=3&sfns=

 

[Aru]

Titre testing has exploded in popularity here in Oz. Might be the area where I am is quite alternative though. We also have incredibly low uptake on the human vaccines and its been an issue with whooping cough sweeping through recently-thankfully the tetanus vac is a combo so had that one included to was up to date while I meet people going down with that!

Perhaps the UK is different? I'm surprised it's not more common tbh. I like the idea behind titre testing and would love to have it as an option and alternative to the viral vaccinations but it currently isn't well recognised..and of course it does have has pros and cons.
I know of very few vets who vaccinate for the viral diseases yearly...most are following the manufacturer's guidelines at this point....3 years once the puppy course is completed-that includes the young adult booster at the 13-14-month mark.

The last sentence in my essay of a post was tongue in cheek btw. I mostly love my job but I do find that is a surprisingly prevalent attitude online.

 

[Leo Walker]

The last sentence in my essay of a post was tongue in cheek btw. I mostly love my job but I do find that is a surprisingly prevalent attitude online.

I know But I have heard it a lot and its not fair. Most vets are paid a pittance and work far, far harder than most people

 

[meleeka]

I think this is what my friends dog almost died of. He wasn’t vaccinated. I’m another just do what I’m told I’m afraid. I don’t have a clue what my dog is vaccinated against, I just get a reminder and off we go. She’s never had a reaction to anything so I think the risks of it being bad for her are less than the risk that she’ll pick something up. She’s always at the yard with me, where there’s plenty of vermin and wildlife so more at risk than most I think.

 

[JGC]

My last dog caught lepto and it was an awful illness. We had to put him down with kidney failure. He was vaccinated, but we are in a high risk area, so he should have had the vaccine twice a year to keep his immunity, which we sadly didn't know.