The Lepto debate.

[MotherOfChickens]

Your unvaccinated animals might be fine, but it’s likely that is down to herd immunity. If we all stop vaccinating I’m sure there will be more cases.

Not vaccinating against Parvo is risky not only to your dog but others too. I have been unfortunate to see unvaccinated dogs with parvovirus (obviously more commonly puppies) and watching a dog in that much pain with blood coming out of both ends for a disease that can be minimised by vaccinating is heart breaking.

parvo and I am old enough to remember distemper. this anti-vaxxer thing is getting ridiculous in people and animals. still, I just make my fortune trying to discover new vaccines for animals-get paid humungous amounts from 'big pharma'.lol.

 

[SOS]

parvo and I am old enough to remember distemper. this anti-vaxxer thing is getting ridiculous in people and animals. still, I just make my fortune trying to discover new vaccines for animals-get paid humungous amounts from 'big pharma'.lol.

Of course you do ha! And the vets are only vaccinating to make animals sicker so they get more money. After all that’s what it all about eh? Let’s ignore the fact veterinary has one of the highest suicide rates for a profession. The annual vaccination appointments barely cut even when considering cost to buy in vaccine, it’s storage, vets time, equipment etc.

But obviously a few odd articles and a Facebook page with “over 100 cases” of reactions to L4 vaccines are truth. Im not denying that titre testing has its place and that reactions do happen to vaccinations, as with any medicine product, however when people start insinuating vets are vaccinating for their own ‘twisted benefit’ it’s a step too far.

 

[SusieT]

Ask the vets if they vaccinate their own dogs- that will give you your answer. Anyone buying into the common myth that 'puppy vacc are all they need' is an idiot in my opinion if they take no precautions (e.g. titre testing) to ensure their dogs are protected against common diseases. Anyone who says their dog is so precious to them but makes no effrot to ensure they are protected (particularly when it is based on cost- I always love that one on these debates) needs to stop kidding themselves as what they really mean is its not worth their dogs life to pay to vaccinate or titre test. And I bet they won't want to pay 2K out when the dog gets parvo and the insurance wont pay as its a preventable diesease..
The fact worm labs haven't picked up on worm testing tells me a lot - a bit of research suggests the life cycle doesn't lend itself to faecal egg testing very well as a lack of eggs in the poo is no guide to adult worm s(a bit like encysted redworm in horses) but I am no expert in this. A tleast worms is normally treatable.

 

[Clodagh]

I don't think the vacciante or not choice is solely down to saving money, and I have no idea why choosing not to vaccinate means anyone resents vets earning money (or scientists, MOC ).

I follow my vets recommendations of every other year for everything except lepto, which is annual. Old lab isn't done any more.

The lady who made the original assertion has gone very quiet when asked to provide a scientific study to prove her claims, so I assume she dreamed it.

 

[Leo Walker]

I don't think the vacciante or not choice is solely down to saving money, and I have no idea why choosing not to vaccinate means anyone resents vets earning money (or scientists, MOC ).

For me, it is very definitely nothing to do with saving money, and as I've already said I think vets get paid a pittance for the work they do. I suspect scientist are even worse off! I dont know anyone for whom it is about money. Not sure why anyone would think that. Its not like vaccinating is expensive.

 

[paddy555]

I vaccinated for DHP at 16 weeks. I choose that date as I wanted to do 1 Nobivac injection and my vet advised that by 16 weeks the MDAs would most likely have gone.
If I followed the instructions from my previous vet practice I would be vaccinating for everything every year. That would be unnecessary.

I don't do lepto and that is my choice, it is not down to saving money. That choice however is made after a lot of consideration. I don't get it that people just do as they are told by their vets re vaccinating without looking at what they are vaccinating for and why. They say they trust their vet. I don't. I have had too many mistakes and misdiagnoses from vets around my horses. These were serious misdiagnoses. One vet for example wanted to euthanise my horse whom he diagnosed with botulism. He had a throat infection and needed antibiotics. Another totally missed how seriously ill my foal was with lawsonia. If I had trusted that vet he would have died. Fortunately the horse hospital I insisted on taking him to were a little more on the ball. To my mind if vets can make those mistakes with horses are they going to be any more reliable with other animals. I like to make sure I know what is going on and why. To balance it I have been grateful to vets over the years and many have given me good advice so I am not anti vet.


"But obviously a few odd articles and a Facebook page with “over 100 cases” of reactions to L4 vaccines are truth"

equally are they all lies? can they all be discounted as rubbish or do they deserve consideration.


There are a lot of cranks on the internet and a lot of dogs allegedly seriously ill or dying from lepto vaccinations. It is difficult to evaluate how many have credence however they all seem to be reactions to lepto. People seem quite happy with DHP so is there any truth in the lepto stories?
There also seems to be little evidence as to how many of the dogs who have died from lepto were in fact vaccinated. From what I can gather some appear to have been vaccinated.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I don't think the vacciante or not choice is solely down to saving money, and I have no idea why choosing not to vaccinate means anyone resents vets earning money (or scientists, MOC ).

its the whole-vets just vaccinate/neuter to make money-vaccines are made by evil big pharma to make the money off the backs of poorly animals bla bla. Its all a conspiracy
I could rant for days probably about how everything scientific is evil but everything 'natural' is perfectly fine to shovel into your animals with no testing or even any quality control in many cases. but I won't I see it as part of the same issue tbh. (as an aside did you know there are now Reddit threads for kids asking if they can get vaccinated without their parents' consent?!).



I think most people aren't thinking about the money and are trying to do their best by their dogs but I think they are incorrect.


As for vaccinated animals contracting what they are vaccinated against, there are reasons for that-both from a vaccine POV and from an individual animals POV, neither of which are reasons to stop or not vaccinate. No vaccine is 100% effective because biology, same as no diagnostic test is 100% because biology.

 

[Clodagh]

its the whole-vets just vaccinate/neuter to make money-vaccines are made by evil big pharma to make the money off the backs of poorly animals bla bla. Its all a conspiracy
I could rant for days probably about how everything scientific is evil but everything 'natural' is perfectly fine to shovel into your animals with no testing or even any quality control in many cases. but I won't I see it as part of the same issue tbh. (as an aside did you know there are now Reddit threads for kids asking if they can get vaccinated without their parents' consent?!).



I think most people aren't thinking about the money and are trying to do their best by their dogs but I think they are incorrect.


As for vaccinated animals contracting what they are vaccinated against, there are reasons for that-both from a vaccine POV and from an individual animals POV, neither of which are reasons to stop or not vaccinate. No vaccine is 100% effective because biology, same as no diagnostic test is 100% because biology.

OK, so I was talking from my own POV. Although of course big pharma companies want to make money, none are registered charities and in it for the love and idealism.

 

[paddy555]

its the whole-vets just vaccinate/neuter to make money-vaccines are made by evil big pharma to make the money off the backs of poorly animals bla bla. Its all a conspiracy
I could rant for days probably about how everything scientific is evil but everything 'natural' is perfectly fine to shovel

.

Vets seem to advocate a lot of vaccinations and neutering. Is it all necessary. Is vaccinating annually for DHP necessary.
From everything I have read it doesn't seem to be. Is all neutering necessary? it is to stop the flow of unwanted mongrels but what about the others? Neither of these are cheap and provide work and income for vets. That is surely a fact.
I don't believe everything scientific is evil etc but if vaccinations and neutering were reduced vet income would fall. These are not treatments for poorly animals.

 

[TheresaW]

Luna had her first booster since her puppy jabs in October last year. We were told then that this year, she will only need her Lepto jab, her Dhp will be fine until next year.

Our dogs do occasionally go into kennels overnight, or home boarding. One of the reasons we vaccinate, plus there have been a couple of outbreaks of parvo fairly locally. They also come to the horses where I know rats are about, so lepto is a risk.

 

[SusieT]

paddy555- the vet income would rise with treating the illness - treating for vaccine or neuter preventable diseases is much more expensive than a neuter or vaccine -so your idea they make money from vaccines is incorrect.

 

[SOS]

"But obviously a few odd articles and a Facebook page with “over 100 cases” of reactions to L4 vaccines are truth"

equally are they all lies? can they all be discounted as rubbish or do they deserve consideration.

If you had quoted my whole post then you would see that I do not discredit these *could* be direct reactions or even deaths linked to the vaccine, but when compared to the thousands of animals getting vaccinated everyday it is a tiny minority yet people choose to just see that.

Again the reason not many animals contract the diseases is because of herd immunity...

If you think you can diagnose better than your vet/have no trust then why get them at all?

As I also said earlier vaccinations barely cut a profit to the practice when considering running costs/buy in price, similarly neuterings are also often only slightly more than cost price. However even if they were inflated why should that matter? It’s a business not the NHS.

 

[paddy555]

If you think you can diagnose better than your vet/have no trust then why get them at all?

As I also said earlier vaccinations barely cut a profit to the practice when considering running costs/buy in price, similarly neuterings are also often only slightly more than cost price. However even if they were inflated why should that matter? It’s a business not the NHS.

I don't think I can diagnose better than a vet, I have simply been on the receiving end of what were very serious vet errors. It has taught me to be very careful and to question things.

I agree they are businesses not the NHS and vet practices make very good profits. I am not suggesting they should be charities. However if I vaccinated a dog every year as my previous practice reminded me I would be producing considerably more income for them over the lifetime of the dog than if I vaccinated at longer intervals.

 

[paddy555]

paddy555- the vet income would rise with treating the illness - treating for vaccine or neuter preventable diseases is much more expensive than a neuter or vaccine -so your idea they make money from vaccines is incorrect.

your argument seems to be they would make more money if we didn't vaccinate/neuter. Of course they make money from vaccines/neuters.

 

[SOS]

your argument seems to be they would make more money if we didn't vaccinate/neuter. Of course they make money from vaccines/neuters.

Barely any money though! For example neutering at our local practice (not mine) is £135 for a spay in a 10-20kg dog.

For this operation to take place you need to hire vets to operate on the dog, nurses to do your anaesthesia and monitor it on recovery/all day, receptionists to answer any worried calls from the owner. You need to pay the rent on the building, pay electricity/water bills/heating, have a specially built theatre and dog ward, have an autoclave to sterilise the equipment, have an anaesthetic machine, buy anaesthetic agents, buy oxygen, have a scavenging system, have warning devices, have consumables such as suture material, cannula materials, scrub solution etc. You need an ET tube, clippers, all at their expenses. Many of these things all need maintenance too. Then you have the drugs that animal is given as a pre med/pain relief, these come at expense. Once you add it all up, even in established vet practices with the equipment, it barely breaks even.

Where as a pyometra (infection of the uterus) that occurs in ~1 in 4 entire bitches can cost upwards of £450, including your emergency consult, ultrasound, intensive care. Or your C section at £700+. So yes more money would be made in the long run if neutering wasn’t advocated.

 

[MurphysMinder]

I am surprised so many people vaccinate annually for DHP, my vets only do it every 3 years with just lepto annually. I have always stopped DHP as my dogs get older , my 10 year old won't be done again. The heeler, who is actually owned by my daughter who is a vet, has KC annually as he competes at agility competitions and there are sometimes outbreaks. Having said that despite being vaccinated he has actually had KC twice but we work on the principle he may be worse without the vaccine. And as has been mentioned above, all the vets I know vaccinate their own animals, so it certainly isn't just to make money.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I have two un-neutered dogs, my vets have never suggested they are neutered and in fact the most recent ones were pleased I had no plans to neuter the retriever before he was 2 if at all.

vets deal with all sorts of ignorance, have to deal with benign neglect and with a lack of owner compliance with stuff like training-I expect many recommend neutering to try and stop the cycle of numpty owners breeding dogs because its the only thing that they can recommend thats likely to be done. I know many vets and have known many over my lifetime-not one of them recommended neutering in order to earn them money-they would make more as said from emergency pyos etc. Vets would arguably make more money from treating dogs with parvo and distemper but again, the vets I know generally like to prevent preventable diseases especially ones as wretched as parvo.

Plus a yearly check up at vaccination time allows the vet to see if anything else might be going on that a less clued up owner might miss-weight, teeth, heart, lumps etc all of which are welfare issues. We might all be very enlightened owners on here and able to make a reasonable risk analysis or spot early signs of illness in our dogs but the vast majority of the public cannot. I am not a vet, you couldnt pay me enough to do it, but I was a VN and a receptionist for a number of years plus the partner of a surgeon for longer than that, I've seen alot of clients, alot of animals and heard an awful lot of rubbish excuses from owners. Vets have to deal with that on a daily basis and IME do what they can.

 

[paddy555]

Barely any money though! For example neutering at our local practice (not mine) is £135 for a spay in a 10-20kg dog.

For this operation to take place you need to hire vets to operate on the dog, nurses to do your anaesthesia and monitor it on recovery/all day, receptionists to answer any worried calls from the owner. You need to pay the rent on the building, pay electricity/water bills/heating, have a specially built theatre and dog ward, have an autoclave to sterilise the equipment, have an anaesthetic machine, buy anaesthetic agents, buy oxygen, have a scavenging system, have warning devices, have consumables such as suture material, cannula materials, scrub solution etc. You need an ET tube, clippers, all at their expenses. Many of these things all need maintenance too. Then you have the drugs that animal is given as a pre med/pain relief, these come at expense. Once you add it all up, even in established vet practices with the equipment, it barely breaks even.

Where as a pyometra (infection of the uterus) that occurs in ~1 in 4 entire bitches can cost upwards of £450, including your emergency consult, ultrasound, intensive care. Or your C section at £700+. So yes more money would be made in the long run if neutering wasn’t advocated.

wrt your 2nd para I appreciate there are a lot of expenses in a vet practice but I think that barely breaks even overall in vet practices may be questionable.
for your final para I wasn't suggesting that we should stop vaccinating/neutering as treating illnesses would be more cost effective for vets, I was simply replying to Susie's comment.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Although of course big pharma companies want to make money, none are registered charities and in it for the love and idealism.

but some of the research institutions that discover the vaccines in the first place and do the ground work are-because believe me, I could earn more doing something else.

 

[paddy555]

my DHP single vaccination was £30. That didn't include a health check or anything else. The cost of a single dose of DHP from vio vet is £13. I have no idea what vets pay but no doubt they buy in bulk. So the amount to cover cost of surgery, vet's time etc was £17.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

my DHP single vaccination was £30. That didn't include a health check or anything else. The cost of a single dose of DHP from vio vet is £13. I have no idea what vets pay but no doubt they buy in bulk. So the amount to cover cost of surgery, vet's time etc was £17.

I've never taken a dog for a jagg and not had a vet listen to heart, check teeth and eyes and ask about any problems-same with the cats and ponies.

 

[TheresaW]

Same here.

 

[Clodagh]

I've never taken a dog for a jagg and not had a vet listen to heart, check teeth and eyes and ask about any problems-same with the cats and ponies.

Same. TBH I'm not sure how much the jabs cost, I just hand over my card, but £30 sounds about right. As many people I tend to then stock up on wormers and so on so I do spend a lot, but would have made a seperate trip to get them otherwise.

 

[Clodagh]

Actually, I cannot imagine a scenario where a vet would jab a dog without asking how it was, as that would be very remiss. I think paddy555 has said before all the vets in their area are rubbish, perhaps that is an example. (I apologise if that wasn't paddy555 who said that).

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Same. TBH I'm not sure how much the jabs cost, I just hand over my card, but £30 sounds about right. As many people I tend to then stock up on wormers and so on so I do spend a lot, but would have made a seperate trip to get them otherwise.

I buy my wormers online-except for Quarrie because Drontal makes him sick. So cats, dog and horse wormers (and flea preps for cats) I save money on.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Perhaps slightly off-topic, but for the second time in my life I recently re-x-rayed a mature dog (which had received excellent hips and elbow results at 12 months old) because a vet suggested that the dog was uncomfortable in the hips during an examination.
I went to a different practice to have the x-rays done, and I was delighted to see that hips, elbows, spine, hocks, stifle, everything basically, all look fabulous despite a fairly hefty workload over the years.
Less delighted that I will have to live on beans for the next few weeks because the dog was just being a twat, as opposed to having anything actually wrong with him.
Do I think this was a money-making conspiracy at the hands of the vet? No, I just think this was a rural vet in a large animal practice who is probably used to seeing fairly poorly-bred GSDs, and hips would be his go-to thing.
I've also heard a very well respected vet in an urban practice tell another customer that 'all German Shepherds get hip dysplasia eventually' - which is not my experience, but probably that of this particular vet - dogs with no hip dysplasia probably wouldn't be presenting to the vet in the first place.
It was my decision to pay for x-rays, it was nobody's fault, and I am glad to see that everything is hunky-dory, it put my mind at risk. Now, pass the beans....

 

[Clodagh]

My OH used to call water 'Horse ale', so if the horse had been particularly expensive and we couldn't afford a drink, out it came.

 

[blackcob]

Plus a yearly check up at vaccination time allows the vet to see if anything else might be going on that a less clued up owner might miss-weight, teeth, heart, lumps etc all of which are welfare issues.

I like to think I'm a fairly conscientious owner, regularly get my hands on my dogs etc. but to my mortification my boss still managed to find a lipoma I hadn't yet spotted during a routine booster appointment.

And yes, neutering is pretty much a loss leader in most practices.

 

[TheresaW]

I have to admit, I was very surprised at the cost of getting Luna spayed. We were expecting close to £300, and it was £170. That included all check ups after, including the one last week which was 3 months since the op.

 

[Clodagh]

Pen was spayed on Friday and it was £230, which included her rather fetching bodysuit. South East prices for you! Also there are cheaper practices in my area but I like and trust the vets at this one, they have clinics 7 days a week and 24 hour care at one of their three practices. She gets two check ups with that (that we are booked in for, I don't know if there will be a three month one).
I think we all get used to free NHS care and if we actually find out how much paid for medical supplies and staff are (dogs or human) we have a wince! I expect my vets to help me at 3 in the morning or Sunday afternoons, within a short time of an emergency call. I can't want that service and object to paying to keep them and their hospitals.