The lost art of following through with the hands.

bitlessbill said:
Ooh please give me some advice? :)



(Just to add this is the worst pic I could find rein wise, not always this bad!)
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Sweet little hairy! He looks quite keen! He looks to have got awfully close and then gone upwards! How much jumping has he done - looks quite green, and may be a little bit tanky?

I'd be tempted to work on the approach. A placing pole in front of the fence will help you both get to the fence at the same time - then it'll be easier to be organised in the air. He's very short in the neck for your height as well - there's not much room to get your hands forward, which makes it harder psychologically!
 
bitlessbill said:
Ooh please give me some advice? :)


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(Just to add this is the worst pic I could find rein wise, not always this bad!)
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Beautiful horse - but get out of his mouth. That's ugly.

We gave up bits and bridles years ago, and have mostly give up saddles.

We jump with no rein contact, and the children who come to ride and learn to jump aren't allowed reins - they can have a neck strap. The good thing about this is that they aren't pulled forward when the horse stumbles or puts his head down.

They'll work like that all the time they are online. Then when they are off the line they have enough control not to haul on their faces in the hackamore, and still have the necktie

The problem about having your hands up the neck is that if the horse stumbles or drops it's head there's only one place you go - down over the shoulder!
 
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kerilli said:
great thread, it's a pet hate of mine too, and i have no idea why so many instructors ignore it... it really puts horses off jumping imho, causes all sorts of problems - back rail of oxers down etc.
how's this then? mare took a full stride out of a perfectly set related distance (approached from trot!), she'd been foot perfect with placing poles but when we took 1 away she misunderstood and hit the launch button too early, so we had a moment...
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That pic made me laugh out loud! She's right up my street - I shut my eyes and go for a longie if I get confused too!

I keep a pony stirrup leather in my car - it's been out more times than I care to remember to do service as a neckstrap. I just can't watch when people spend an entire lesson trying to remove the poor beasts back teeth!
 
brucea said:
Beautiful horse - but get out of his mouth. That's ugly.

We gave up bits and bridles years ago, and have mostly give up saddles.

We jump with no rein contact, and the children who come to ride and learn to jump aren't allowed reins - they can have a neck strap. The good thing about this is that they aren't pulled forward when the horse stumbles or puts his head down.

They'll work like that all the time they are online. Then when they are off the line they have enough control not to haul on their faces in the hackamore, and still have the necktie

The problem about having your hands up the neck is that if the horse stumbles or drops it's head there's only one place you go - down over the shoulder!
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Bit unkind - it's not pretty, but she asked for help, so knows there is a problem. It's just one moment in time as well. I'm all for being positive and encouraging, not telling people how awful they are.

I don't actually agree with jumping with no contact. It has its place for inexperienced riders on horses that know their job, (or as Kerilli said, for experienced riders training youngsters to be think for themselves), but there's more skill in being able to jump a horse with a light giving contact, which allows you to keep the lines of communication open.
 
Auslander said:
Bit unkind - it's not pretty, but she asked for help, so knows there is a problem. It's just one moment in time as well. I'm all for being positive and encouraging, not telling people how awful they are.

I don't actually agree with jumping with no contact. It has its place for inexperienced riders on horses that know their job, (or as Kerilli said, for experienced riders training youngsters to be think for themselves), but there's more skill in being able to jump a horse with a light giving contact, which allows you to keep the lines of communication open.
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Thanks for saying that :D
 
Auslander said:
Sweet little hairy! He looks quite keen! He looks to have got awfully close and then gone upwards! How much jumping has he done - looks quite green, and may be a little bit tanky?

I'd be tempted to work on the approach. A placing pole in front of the fence will help you both get to the fence at the same time - then it'll be easier to be organised in the air. He's very short in the neck for your height as well - there's not much room to get your hands forward, which makes it harder psychologically!
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Yes both very green and depending on mood on day he will either tank me round and I get left behind or I have to drive him all the way and I end up jumping first!
 
Heres my daughter jumping any cc would be helpful as she has never had any jumping lessons, shes always worried her hands dont release forward enough

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she is working on keeping her lower leg more stable any other tips or advice appreciated
 
You wanted bad photos - here's a cracker!

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Admittedly we had got a bit close and had to flop over the log rather than take off nicely.
I have real problems keeping my lower leg forward and make a conscious effort to think "feet forward" as we take off but this was about half way roud the course and my legs were tiring.

My hands aren't good either, if my feet are behaving themselves I can free up enough brain space to try and push my hands forward!
 
Auslander said:
Bit unkind - it's not pretty, but she asked for help, so knows there is a problem. It's just one moment in time as well. I'm all for being positive and encouraging, not telling people how awful they are.

I don't actually agree with jumping with no contact. It has its place for inexperienced riders on horses that know their job, (or as Kerilli said, for experienced riders training youngsters to be think for themselves), but there's more skill in being able to jump a horse with a light giving contact, which allows you to keep the lines of communication open.
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Agreed
 
horseandshoes77 said:
Heres my daughter jumping any cc would be helpful as she has never had any jumping lessons, shes always worried her hands dont release forward enough

she is working on keeping her lower leg more stable any other tips or advice appreciated
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I reckon its a stirrup length thing. Her stirrups are very long, which will make it hard for her to balance, this difficult to give with the hands. He looks quite onward bound as well, which is lovely, but doesn't help the riders style!
 
Auslander - yes totally agree with you, I see so many photos, in the horsey magazines and even in jumping clinics of folk with what my first jumping instructor called 'Chicken Wings' the elbows are stuck out to the side but the hands are fixed. Doing this gives the impression you are 'giving' with your hands but that isn't the case. It is a wonder the horses managed to jump at all so many are restriced by the hands.

Before we could jump a single jump we spent a few lessons learning to hold our balance and weight in the jumping position. No leaning on the withers at all - if we did then we had to muck out two extra horses in the morning !

Then the next lessons we had to approach the jump and drop the reins before we went over and reach for the horse's ears.

Captain Federico Caprilli - the father of the forward jumping seat would be tossing and turning in his grave if he saw those 'Chicken Wing' - cluck cluck cluck.
 
I would love some tips - I am terrible for throwing my body too far forward, also too early, and have a tendency to lean on my horses neck (and hold onto his mane!), and find it terribly difficult to sit up after the jump - I can hapily do a whole round while lying on his neck!).
sequence showing a take-off
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and one where I found that I just coudn't get upright at all! (and not sure what I am doing with my hands other than possibly trying to turn?!)

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My favourite curled up foetal position.....
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Lucyad said:
I would love some tips - I am terrible for throwing my body too far forward, also too early, and have a tendency to lean on my horses neck (and hold onto his mane!), and find it terribly difficult to sit up after the jump - I can hapily do a whole round while lying on his neck!).
sequence showing a take-off
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Your position isn't too bad, and your lower leg isn't as unstable as some we've seen on this thread. It all boils down to the hands again - you just need to allow them forward as he stretches. He looks like a big horse for a not-very-big person, and he is quite strung out - you might find it easier if he was a bit more up and together. When a horse jumps quite long and low, its easy to get a bit overexcited and start throwing yourself over fences, and he looks like he's in the air for quite a long time, so you have plenty of time to clamber up the neck.

Try some gridwork to get him more engaged - a line of bounces would force him to get his shoulders up and be more pingy, and you could use the time wisely to practice quick folds, and sitting up between each fence. Bounces happen so fast that you just can't overfold and crawl up the neck. As you both get snappier, it will all fall into place.

I love him btw - bet he's lovely cross country!
 
Thanks! He is a very good boy, and a real galloping sofa xc as well as hunting, so we have lots of fun together.
He is in the air a long time, and has a real backwards thrust to his takeoff, which is why I often resport to hanging onto his mane (which thankfully is usually quite thick and long). My old instructor would shout at me for leaning on his neck as well, saying I was bound to break fingers eventually. Also as he is built on his forehand and, as you say, quite strung out, me leaning forwardtoo much is never going to help his way of going or his jump. I think I have a tendency to drop him a stride out as well - luckily he is a good boy and jumps regardless.

I think when we are back jumping we need to get somegridwork lessons. My speciality is to jump the whole grid leaning right forward over his neck, but trying to sit up between each fence more might help (it is so difficult!).

I am working on getting him more engaged in canter and when jumping, as well - we tend to do everything in trot or at hunting pace, which can make things difficult. He struggles a lot with geting a bouncy uphill canter but it is gradually getting a little better in flatwork lessons.

Thanks for your input!
 
Auslander said:
I've probably just got out of bed on the wrong side this morning, but this has been bothering me for a while!

We all have our moments - and I'll happily hold my hands up and admit to having got it completely wrong and taken a horses back teeth out over a fence on more than one occasion.

Looking at photos on here though, I see SO many pics of people jumping in non "Arggh" situations, yet their hands are still firmly fixed near the horses withers.

I've had it burned into my brain that hanging onto a horses back teeth over a fence is a crime punishable by death, and my automatic reaction if things go wrong is to chuck the reins at the horse and use my legs and set to keep myself in the plate. If its gone really really wrong, I grab a handful of mane half way up the neck to help my get my balance back, whilst interfering with the horses mouth as little as poss.
On the rare occasion that I haven't spectacularly naffed it up, my default hand position is just in front of the shoulder blade, about half way between the withers and the point of the shoulder. Straight line from the elbow to the horses mouth, one hand on either side of the neck, with a soft elbow so that the horse can take your hand forward if he needs to.

I also hate seeing hands half way up the crest of the neck, although I conceded that at least they are forward.

I'm sure a lot of it is to do with instability/insecurity, which seems to be a modern problem. I know I'm getting old, but it saddens me that health and safety seems to be killing off some of the things we used to do in the old days that resulted in secure seats and riders who didn't use their horses back teeth to balance over a fence.

Bring back bareback gridwork with no reins I say.
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Sadly they can't do that now at riding schools :(

I wish they could, it taught me no end :)

Thankfully mini does not hand on , her natural position, and long may it continue :)
 
Hilarious, I've just read this entire thread and only now realised it's an old one. But it's damn good though, Auslander you are a marvel. Did I miss the Tits n Teeth tour?! I don't think you adverstised it very well frankly, as I would have been there like a shot. I've not quite got to the bottom of the nipple element of it, but I def recognise the bum back, hand forward, heels down mantra.

I'm a terrible one for not giving hands forward but in my defence I do tend to slacken the rein when I realise I've messes up, so that pony doesn't get socked in the gob but it aint pretty. I think I've managed once to get it right, when I thought not about forward or up, but just bum back, hands forward. Sigh. I have also now adopted a neck strap and will try that next time out.

Great thread, am glad it's re-emerged phoenix like from the ashes !
 
Bernster said:
Hilarious, I've just read this entire thread and only now realised it's an old one. But it's damn good though, Auslander you are a marvel. Did I miss the Tits n Teeth tour?! I don't think you adverstised it very well frankly, as I would have been there like a shot. I've not quite got to the bottom of the nipple element of it, but I def recognise the bum back, hand forward, heels down mantra.

I'm a terrible one for not giving hands forward but in my defence I do tend to slacken the rein when I realise I've messes up, so that pony doesn't get socked in the gob but it aint pretty. I think I've managed once to get it right, when I thought not about forward or up, but just bum back, hands forward. Sigh. I have also now adopted a neck strap and will try that next time out.

Great thread, am glad it's re-emerged phoenix like from the ashes !
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The Tits and Teeth tour never quite got off the ground, due to lack of publicity - which is frankly shameful, bearing in mind what I do for a living! I still might do it...
 
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