The nagging feeling that riding horses is just odd

Burnttoast said:
Again, says unflattering things about us that any species we can't exploit is doomed to extinction. Exploiting individual animals in often unpleasant ways simply to save their species from extinction doesn't seem to me to be doing them a favour.
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See this where I differ I don’t think we are exploiting them

And that is absolutely not what I said it is specific to horses during the ice age - and had they not been domesticated they would have died out - that is just simple fact.
 
blitznbobs said:
See this where I differ I don’t think we are exploiting them

And that is absolutely not what I said it is specific to horses during the ice age - and had they not been domesticated they would have died out - that is just simple fact.
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Horses were domesticated during the Holocene so by definition they survived the last glacial as wild animals.
 
Burnttoast said:
Horses were domesticated during the Holocene so by definition they survived the last glacial as wild animals.
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In fairness if not domesticated for draught and riding we would have probably hunted them to extinction
That's not a free pass for us to abuse them today though because we saved them from ourselves
 
I bought my horses as pets.

I have them ridden because it keeps them fit and trim, and I think of it like I do going to the gym. I don't love going but when I'm there and afterwards, I feel like it's good for me. Both seem to love going on hacks, so that's reassuring.

Occasionally I might pop out for the odd hack or dressage clinic but they are pretty much bought because I enjoy having them around. I like seeing their little faces in the morning. I like grooming them, faffing about the yard, fixing electric fencing, popping to the feed shop. I like watching Mim boss everyone about and Miri try to figure out the most basic of logic with little success. I love how empathetic Mim is, and how protective she is of me. And conversely, I love that Miri looks to me for her confidence, and cuddles up when she's anxious about anything. I like my yard being alive and full of horses, riders, grooms, tractors, physios, even the vets 🤣.

I like getting home and watching them in the field, and they make such beautiful decorations. Far better than a piece of art.

Do they do a bit of work that they may not automatically sign up to do? Yes. But I also did that stupid leg press thing this morning and I'm sure one day when I'm 60, I'll be glad of having put work into my strength and balance.

Not everything in life that is good for you is the easy or automatic way of existence.
 
LadyGascoyne said:
I bought my horses as pets.

I have them ridden because it keeps them fit and trim, and I think of it like I do going to the gym. I don't love going but when I'm there and afterwards, I feel like it's good for me. Both seem to love going on hacks, so that's reassuring.

Occasionally I might pop out for the odd hack or dressage clinic but they are pretty much bought because I enjoy having them around. I like seeing their little faces in the morning. I like grooming them, faffing about the yard, fixing electric fencing, popping to the feed shop. I like watching Mim boss everyone about and Miri try to figure out the most basic of logic with little success. I love how empathetic Mim is, and how protective she is of me. And conversely, I love that Miri looks to me for her confidence, and cuddles up when she's anxious about anything. I like my yard being alive and full of horses, riders, grooms, tractors, physios, even the vets 🤣.

I like getting home and watching them in the field, and they make such beautiful decorations. Far better than a piece of art.

Do they do a bit of work that they may not automatically sign up to do? Yes. But I also did that stupid leg press thing this morning and I'm sure one day when I'm 60, I'll be glad of having put work into my strength and balance.

Not everything in life that is good for you is the easy or automatic way of existence.
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This is a very balanced view, I'm in agreement. I also love just having them around and doing all of the ownership things that I longed for as a child, but never had the opportunity to do. 'Not everything in life that is good for you is the easy or automatic way of existence.' - I think horses enjoy a challenge, just like we do. Stimulation for the brain and body is good, as long as we still have autonomy. That's where is becomes a bit of a grey area with horses.

On a sort of related note, does anyone else love making a feed with all of the supplements and feel like a kid making 'potions' in the bathroom, then give it a good sniff afterwards because it smells so good? 😄
 
Miss_Millie said:
On a sort of related note, does anyone else love making a feed with all of the supplements and feel like a kid making 'potions' in the bathroom, then give it a good sniff afterwards because it smells so good? 😄
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Yes! It started when I was pregnant/had babies, my horses lived out (see previous posts) and it was just about the only thing I could do!
 
I do mind the more I learn, the less I’m interested in competing. Everything i do with the horses these days is usually to benefit them in a certain way - eg schooling to improve their way of going so they can carry themselves corrextly with the correct muscle. I’m much more careful on the ground than I used to be too. I’m not sure if it’s just as we get older we become more like that but knowledge is definitely power!
 
spotty_pony2 said:
Those of you who say you would give them up if they couldn’t be ridden - what would you do if they have an injury to illness or when they get old?
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Presumably they would PTS? That's their choice and I wouldn't judge nearly as harshly as the people that sell them when they get to late teens so they don't have to deal with any of that.
 
I will admit that I love riding and that I do primarily have horses to ride them. I find a good gallop on a willing horse that I know and trust who is enjoying it as much as I am very therapeutic and I do greatly miss those little moments of connection with another being.

If I ever happen to own a horse who isn’t able to be ridden anymore but I am totally confident is sound and happy in retirement then I will give that to them but I seem to have a knack for having horses that fall off the cliff as it were rather than having a slow & gentle decline (or in the case of the current one are beset by an ever growing list of progressive issues) and I value quality of life above quantity. (Oh and the safety of the humans that have to handle them, that too!)

I will also admit that if I were to start from a position of zero horses & then look for a horse purely to be a pet then the qualities I’d look for would be very different to what I’d look for in a ridden horse and yes I probably would want small, cute & cuddly. (Like I wouldn’t ask the Hooligan spaniel to do any kind of “proper” job as he hasn’t the concentration or drive but equally I wouldn’t in a million years think that a Collie would be a good fit for my lifestyle as we wouldn’t be providing what each other needed)
 
Caol Ila said:
I could move in with my brother in Namibia; his landlord has horses and there are stables on the property. It's a desert. Perfect conditions. Oh, wait...they'd just drop dead of African Horse Sickness. The Namibian horses probably have some immunity to it (and it still takes some out) but mine? Not so much.
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You forgot the leopards and hyenas out in Namibia. Oh and the snakes. And rabid jackals...
They vaccinate against African horse sickness, but the vaccine itself is rather unpleasant and tough on the horses.
I've spent a bit of time in southern Africa and came to the conclusion that if I ever emigrated out there, I would have to relearn horse husbandry from scratch as the conditions are so different.
 
meleeka said:
Presumably they would PTS? That's their choice and I wouldn't judge nearly as harshly as the people that sell them when they get to late teens so they don't have to deal with any of that.
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Yes presumably but I know a lot of people sell them before they get to that stage as they can’t face the pts scenario either!
 
Titchy Pony said:
You forgot the leopards and hyenas out in Namibia. Oh and the snakes. And rabid jackals...
They vaccinate against African horse sickness, but the vaccine itself is rather unpleasant and tough on the horses.
I've spent a bit of time in southern Africa and came to the conclusion that if I ever emigrated out there, I would have to relearn horse husbandry from scratch as the conditions are so different.
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I love South Africa.
 
I have Border Collie dogs. When they are not working sheep I invent fun 'work' for them - agility, finding hidden things, playing football, no one seems to think it's odd. They have been deliberately bred to cooperate with a human, take huge amounts of exercise and do a lot of thinking. If I didn't do it they'd be bored and fat. I'm 100% certain they love it, as do I.

Having decided I am too old to buy another horse I share a cob with a child beginner who mostly only rides at the weekend. As well as hacking I am teaching him Gymkhana games. He was deliberately bred to work. If I didn't do it he'd be bored and fat. I am 100% certain he loves it, as do I.

I can't see a difference from the dogs.





Disclosure- been riding over 60 years so clearly had my fun already.
I don't think I can dictate to anyone else of any age what they should do, this is one of those confusing issues where you need to examine your own conscience & follow it.
 
If you personally want to find a retirement livery with many acres and turn out your not too good or poor doer for the rest of its life, then you personally can do so.

For the very poor doers and the good doers and those with EMS and laminitics etc - then you have a choice to make. Is pts better than being alive as a ridden pony or a pony on restricted grazing? If you own that pony then that is your decision to make.

If we are going further and every pony should be wild - well there is nowhere to put them all. So that’s pts for sure PETA style. Those who are left and are suited to life on the moors would need culling to keep their numbers down. Being wild is certainly not being free from suffering. No hoof care, no veterinary care, mares having a foal a year from a young age, no dental care, being hungry for a lot of the winter. No remedies for sweet itch. A short life where you are culled once past your prime.

And what about all the other domesticated animals? Do we just slaughter them all and live in a world with just humans and a few wild animals? Then what when the humans are not living in ideal conditions? Poverty, war, famine - what do we do then because their lives are not ideal?

If you take anything far enough we are in the realms of science fiction. But then look at the USA right now. Who is to say any of that won’t happen?
 
Random debate.

I like riding, it’s one of the reasons I spend so much money owning a horse. I also like the husbandry aspect of horses as well.

If I could use my horse for his original purpose (transportation) then I would however my car is more convenient and less time spent commuting 🤣

Some days I can’t be bothered riding, so I’m sure there are days when my horse can’t be bothered either 🤭

We have our horses for reasons, what those reasons are doesn’t need justified to anyone else.
 
maya2008 said:
If you personally want to find a retirement livery with many acres and turn out your not too good or poor doer for the rest of its life, then you personally can do so.

For the very poor doers and the good doers and those with EMS and laminitics etc - then you have a choice to make. Is pts better than being alive as a ridden pony or a pony on restricted grazing? If you own that pony then that is your decision to make.

If we are going further and every pony should be wild - well there is nowhere to put them all. So that’s pts for sure PETA style. Those who are left and are suited to life on the moors would need culling to keep their numbers down. Being wild is certainly not being free from suffering. No hoof care, no veterinary care, mares having a foal a year from a young age, no dental care, being hungry for a lot of the winter. No remedies for sweet itch. A short life where you are culled once past your prime.

And what about all the other domesticated animals? Do we just slaughter them all and live in a world with just humans and a few wild animals? Then what when the humans are not living in ideal conditions? Poverty, war, famine - what do we do then because their lives are not ideal?

If you take anything far enough we are in the realms of science fiction. But then look at the USA right now. Who is to say any of that won’t happen?
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My old boy once got a hoof abcess. In the wild that would have been a death sentence as he would have become prey.
 
Again, I like riding. I just want to be as sure as I can be that doing so is ethical. If I even can.

I’m not sure the emotive language of culling is helpful when discussing how we can improve our relationship with, particularly, sport horses to be as fair to them as possible.

No one here is advocating for the complete banning of horse riding, which I don’t think we would ever see in our lifetimes. And I certainly wouldn’t support.

I personally don't like using transactional language, but maybe that’s just me 🤷🏻‍♀️

I think this is an important subject to continue to discuss as social license becomes more of a thing.
 
spotty_pony2 said:
Those of you who say you would give them up if they couldn’t be ridden - what would you do if they have an injury to illness or when they get old?
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I've not seen anyone say that, I've seen people say they wouldn't go out to buy an unridden horse - myself included! But I'll answer your question as you've asked it, nonetheless. For me it would kind of depend.

My native I've had for 15 years, would continue to live out his days with a good QOL until he couldnt. I bought him as a 5 year and he's 20 now and absolutely one of the family. I've reversed his EMS and being ridden is a huge part of that so we'd have to see how he goes when retired - but I'm keeping everything crossed we could find a way to make it work and keep him happy as he's the absolute love of my life.

'It depends' would be my answer for the rest. If I'd hypothetically bought a 5 year old that went lame 6 months into owning them and vet's said despite our best treatment and efforts, they'd never come sound enough for riding but we could hope for field sound then I'd probably give them a nice 6 month retirement in the summer when we have 24/7 turn out and then PTS. I'm not about to put riding above the welfare of any horse but I wouldn't want to fund a new non-ridden horse for potentially the next 20 years either when I'm a one horse owner paying approx. £500 a month plus each month - and that baseline cost won't hugely change if I ride my horse or not. I appreciate some people will judge that and I'm OK with that. I'd personally rather PTS than try to move on an unsound horse to an uncertain future.

If it was a case of they'll need X and Y treatment & then 12 months off but ridden prognosis is good, then they'd get that time off no questions asked and we'd see what they could cope with & adjust work load accordingly long term :)

If I'd had the next hypothetical horse for 10 years before they needed to be retired, then I'd do that.

Obviously my situation might change & I might be in a position to own or rent land - but at the moment, I'm on a livery yard paying livery which doesn't work out very cost effective per horse.
 
maya2008 said:
If we are going further and every pony should be wild - well there is nowhere to put them all. So that’s pts for sure PETA style. Those who are left and are suited to life on the moors would need culling to keep their numbers down. Being wild is certainly not being free from suffering. No hoof care, no veterinary care, mares having a foal a year from a young age, no dental care, being hungry for a lot of the winter. No remedies for sweet itch. A short life where you are culled once past your prime.
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I've had this discussion many times. We have a feral, unmanaged population on a local mountain and people LOVE to see the "wild" ponies living free. They don't love to see dead foals or broken legs from falling in a hole or stallions kicking the life out of eachother but you can't have one without the other I'm afraid.

The social license thing is so weird to me. Like, people are woe-is-me-ing about having riding horses banned because Joe Public just doesn't understand but the solution to the social license problem is to not do shit that is socially unconscionable, like beating horses, laming horses deliberately, accepting catastrophic injuries and death as a natural result of competing just to make yourself money. It isn't HARD not to do shit like that and it isn't hard to stand up and say it's wrong. Maybe eventually Joe Public's censure would trickle down to amateur riders pony club kicking their way round a SJ course but I personally don't see it happening.
 
smolmaus said:
I've had this discussion many times. We have a feral, unmanaged population on a local mountain and people LOVE to see the "wild" ponies living free. They don't love to see dead foals or broken legs from falling in a hole or stallions kicking the life out of eachother but you can't have one without the other I'm afraid.

The social license thing is so weird to me. Like, people are woe-is-me-ing about having riding horses banned because Joe Public just doesn't understand but the solution to the social license problem is to not do shit that is socially unconscionable, like beating horses, laming horses deliberately, accepting catastrophic injuries and death as a natural result of competing just to make yourself money. It isn't HARD not to do shit like that and it isn't hard to stand up and say it's wrong. Maybe eventually Joe Public's censure would trickle down to amateur riders pony club kicking their way round a SJ course but I personally don't see it happening.
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This.
I was at an SJ/eventing demo once and one of the riders said 'If we treat our horses like kings and queens, it's not unreasonable to ask them to do a bit of work for us.'

It sounds like a reasonable thing to say but I'd say there are a few conditions. One is that they have to be treated like 'kings and queens' while they're doing that work, whatever it is.
I don't see it as acceptable to provide good quality care and then expect the horse to be uncomfortable/in pain when they're actually doing the work.
We all know about the abuse at top level, but I've seen some awful treatment of horses on the local show circuit. This goes from one family who got a saddle that clearly did not fit the pony and was causing discomfort but ('it's a lovely looking saddle and the judge will like it') to those who are openly hitting stressed horses. Having a nice stable and grazing doesn't make up for that sort of treatment.

I always think that if my pony was living in the wild he'd have to do a heck of a lot of walking. So I don't feel bad about taking him for a hack around the block and he gets a short graze on a patch of grass half way round (we say we're 'taking them out for a meal'). I do everything I can to make him as comfortable as possible, eg, tack must fit properly. I believe that horses do need exercise if they're sound and physically well; I could lead him out, but he doesn't seem to object to me riding him.

I never got into competing but we did hunt (clean boot) quite a lot before we moved to Scotland. Maybe the horses were stressed and I misinterpreted this for excitement, but once they were prepared for travelling they would literally load themselves onto the little wagon. Some of the best days of my life - literally - were out with the bloodhounds. When it's going well, there's nothing to compare to riding; even though I'm not super-confident as a rider, the desire to ride has always outweighed everything else.

Once the horses retire, they'll be kept in comfort for the rest of their lives. But I don't think I'd buy a young pet horse just for the pleasure of looking after it.

Finally, I always wondered what people meant when they said, in sales ads, 'Must go to a serious competition home only.' I suppose they believed that the horse loved competing. But I wondered if the same horse would have been equally fine with going for long hacks?
 
Nancykitt said:
Finally, I always wondered what people meant when they said, in sales ads, 'Must go to a serious competition home only.' I suppose they believed that the horse loved competing. But I wondered if the same horse would have been equally fine with going for long hacks?
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I think it's similar to the mindset of a parent wanting their child to 'fulfil their potential', so if they think they have a 'talent', making them do that thing so that they aren't, in their mind, wasting it. I'm not convinced that most people understand equine behaviour enough to actually know whether their horses genuinely enjoy a certain discipline. It's more to stroke the ego.
 
Nancykitt said:
Finally, I always wondered what people meant when they said, in sales ads, 'Must go to a serious competition home only.' I suppose they believed that the horse loved competing. But I wondered if the same horse would have been equally fine with going for long hacks?
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I think it means they want money, and maybe that the horse's brain is too fried to cope with anything other than being held together by a strong leg and a strong hand. I'm a cynic.

I do know people who have horses just for their own sake. But they are people I know through the rescue who have acreage, so probably not representative. Good few of them could be ridden, they're sound and sane, but they just get to live in their stable, happy herd and be loved for who they are.
 
Nancykitt said:
Finally, I always wondered what people meant when they said, in sales ads, 'Must go to a serious competition home only.' I suppose they believed that the horse loved competing. But I wondered if the same horse would have been equally fine with going for long hacks?
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I sometimes wonder if it simply means that it's the horse equivalent of a border collie or a malinois: will run rings around the average owner and land them in hospital more likely than not.

I believe that lots of horses these days are bred in the hope of obtaining the next Milton or Valegro, with stallions chosen on performance rather than suitability to the amateur home if the foal should fall short of professional athletic expectations. Some of the stallions are barely sane (whether that's down to management or genetics is up for debate, but I highly suspect a bit off both) but that's ignored if they're good enough, so the get to produce a hoard of barely sane offspring that "must go to a serious competition home only" as they are the only kind of home that will overlook the crazy. I think overall breeding should pay more attention to temperament and market, as there are only so many pro horse homes available.
 
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