The nothing?!?

I am a ..........

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LEC

LEC

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I have been thinking about this a lot! and I think today at YHL it was clarified to me a little more.

I feel like I am a non existent, non catered for rider - I am not good enough for many things but too experienced for the majority of other things on offer.

I am a nothing and I am wondering how many others would consider themselves nothings?

I am not really catered for at RC as I am in the minority and most lessons do not go above 3ft or the flatwork ones are slightly frustrating so I end up having private lessons which cost £££.

Competitions - You want to move up as far as you can go but there seems to be a glass ceiling for amateurs. At BSJA the 1.20m amateurs are a joke, BE the novice championships should be renamed the Pro Festival - BD have got it nearly right with restricted and open and perhaps BD is the fairest sport for an amateur??

This is not really a moan but really to see who else would consider themselves a nothing?!? Surely we cannot be that huge a minority?
 
Well I class myself as an intermediate on your scale as have competed above 1m10 SJ and Elementary dressage although not above BE100 (yet!!)

I think BD do have it best for the amateur as not only is there open/restricted but there is also the area festivals which give those that don't really have a chance at regionals the chance of a championship type atmosphere even if only going to the areas rather than nationals.

With BS as an amateur you basically need a speed machine to get anywhere unless its a particularly tricky course. I haven't had one of those since ponies ;) Dan (as long as I didn't interfere too much) could jump clear over a substantial track which allowed me to compete in some things I wouldn't on a lot of horses (i.e. county level for starters!) but I was always an also ran in those classes spattered amongst the pros. the 1m20 amateurs (which came in after Dan was retired) are yes a joke in that its filled mainly by pros but again its a speed competition. I know ultimately you need to be fast to win but when watching the british novice finals and youngsters going flat out it saddened me as you can guarantee the majority will never progress up the levels as they do to much too fast. Yes some will but its not developing horses (and riders!)

BE well currently I have grassroots to aim for (as long as I stay away from novice classes ;) ) but beyond that is very little unless they introduce this regional teams thing there was murmurings of a few months back.

I will admit to not being a RC member but thats mainly to my transport limitations and my local club catering more for the lower level rider. I.e. their dressage today had a W/T two prelims and a novice. I won't be entering the prelims so would be left with one test when I like to ride at least two. great for their current members but not enough to make me want to join!

I know I could do RC teams/areas etc which are at a suitable height level but I would rather not have the mammoth drive to nationals if I was to actually qualify ;) :p
 
*sticks hand in air* i am a nothing, i am confident up to about 1.20 and noviceish + be (depending on horse) and i do feel i have nothing really to aim for. Maybe i should give bd a go....
 
Why do you disagree with the measures?

BE80/90/100 - All have championships which are restricted to certain levels of riders. BE defines grassroots riders as BE100 and below.

1.10m Sjing - Recently I attended amateur 1st rounds and there were 50 in the 90 and 100 and only 20 in the 1.10m. At anything above 1.10m you see far less amateurs.

Also as mentioned the majority of RC lessons are for 3ft and below. The majority of the time I will attend a 'higher' RC lesson and it will still be below 3ft.

From what I have seen PC does actually do a pretty decent job of trying to cater for this level but unfortunately I am well beyond that age now!
 
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Well, seeing as I've never competed affiliated (yet ;)), and not ABOVE elem/110cm (have done both, albeit the SJ was in a higher-and-higher type competition at a charity show - we had a stop at 1.10m because he'd already jumped 6 rounds by that point...) I'd be a novice. I'd certainly not say I'm a 'nothing' as I can still do RC/PC stuff (but not PC for much longer :() at the level I want to compete at... Maybe I'm lucky in that there is such a variety of standards/aims/experience amongst the members of both local RC and PC.

PC/RC champs run up to BE novice standard, so surely you've not 'outgrown' that :confused: Something to aim for?
 
An interesting one... I've been to BE novice and earned points but that was quite a while ago and novice now is certainly trickier than it was when I was last riding at that level!! Back then they had owner/rider sections - this was part of a series, which lead to a championships. The 'owner/rider' bit got rid of plenty of pros ...and helped my results along the way thank you very much! It also reduced the 'over awed' factor, which I must admit to falling prey too when warming up sandwiched between a couple of pro eventers riding like demi gods (and feeling like a total potato person by comparison)!!

As regards the rest, well, 1m10 and elementary have both marked the height of my participation in SJ and dressage so I think that puts me fair and square into the grass roots rider section of your poll!

I have a youngster now so Riding Club has come back into my life in a big way and has been rather marvellous this year. That said, looking to the future, if things continue to go well it will presumably be less and less suitable, so yes, pricey private lessons will increasingly beckon.

From a BE perspective, I personally have plenty to aim for with starting the baby off and perhaps one day striving towards qualifiying for the grass roots champs etc, but for those amateurs competing at novice level plus there does seem to be a bit of a void. Why not lets bring the owner/rider series back? The current novice championships is, as you say, something of a pro-fest! Could have an intermediate series too if there was a market.
 
RC does offer the open championships at novice level but at area level this is not very sustainable due to the number of entries. A lot of areas put area teams together as most RC struggle to put out an area team. Maybe if RCs offered more to riders at this slightly higher level (lessons/trainers etc) they would attract more participants?? It is a very tricky balance and one I have no answer for. In my own way I am trying to aid this as have just been voted onto the area committee as training officer in order to be able to offer riders interesting trainers and higher level groups by being able to access 20 RCs rather than just one.

Interestingly the BE80 RC champs will be moving back to RC in 2013 and running qualifiers at area level with a champs as normal. I will be watching with interest what BE decides to do about this as it was incredibly popular this year. My theory is that BE will still continue to offer a BE80 champs of some sort.
 
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LEC said:
Why do you disagree with the measures?

BE80/90/100 - All have championships which are restricted to certain levels of riders. BE defines grassroots riders as BE100 and below.

1.10m Sjing - Recently I attended amateur 1st rounds and there were 50 in the 90 and 100 and only 20 in the 1.10m. At anything above 1.10m you see far less amateurs.

Also as mentioned the majority of RC lessons are for 3ft and below. The majority of the time I will attend a 'higher' RC lesson and it will still be below 3ft.

From what I have seen PC does actually do a pretty decent job of trying to cater for this level but unfortunately I am well beyond that age now!
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I don't agree with them either. By that scale I am a novice as I don't really compete past prelim as I always have youngsters to bring on and sell as "blank canvases" so I only get them out to low level shows for the experience. And for the same reason I don't bother to affiliate. But personally I would classify myself as a competent amateur so that is what I clicked.
 
Bizarrely there used to be lots of good jumping at that mid range level, but it was unaffiliated. When I used to be able to ride, entry level for BSJA was Newcomers and local shows always had an open jumping which would go up to 4ft and provide £50 prize money, a big cup and your picture in the paper. Things haven't neccessarily changed for the better.
 
According to your poll I am Intermediate.

However, as I have had youngsters for the last 5 years or so, I have been at the grassroots level again with them.

I am not so bothered about championships etc- Millie has qualified for a few BD things but I am not really interested in going to festivals and the like- I just want to win as many points as possible and move her up the levels.

Same when I go eventing- I am out there for placings and more for the education so I can move up the levels, I'm not really interested in championships etc even when we have qualified.

I agree it would be great if more riding clubs/clinics offered something to people wanting to jump over 1m but I suppose it is a case of supply and demand and most people jumping over 1m would have a regular trainer anyway?
 
I dont really agree with the attitude of there should be seperate championships through BE .I have never agreed with grassroots (BE get more disputes of placings and qualifications at grassroots than any other competition).
If you are good enough to take part you should accept who you are competing against otherwise if you take it to the extreme you will have championships for all sorts of things ie.age groups,gender(chose word carefully),what car you drive the list is unending.
What is the hangup with having to be in championships.If your horse is better than one for example OT has you will qualify above him .
As for people who think BD is fairer get real its subjective marking your at the hands of the judge .Most of you BE competitors will have had issues with dressage marking at some point.
I always find it amazing that at BD somebody wins a class 5% in front of everybody else and they are all just below a qualifying score.
 
I am a nothing rider! I have competed up to BE Intermediate so I am no longer eligible for the grassroots championships. Since selling my Intermediate horse I now have 2 younger horses who will compete next year at a grassroots level (possibly some novices in there too!), yet there is nothing to really aim them at, other than eventually the Champs at Gatcombe. And lets face it when was the last time an Amature got a top 3 placing there??? I am a member of a higher level local RC, and they do put on a couple of clinics a year with good people such as Ken Clawson. It is really good to get the younger horses out and about to, however, due to the fact there are a few pros as members alot the of the clinics/competitions are mid week which I can't go to!

Personally I think RC does a good job for the grassroots rider, I would like to see BE offer a little more to the amatures that are out of grassroots, yet not pros.
 
I have competed up to BE Novice in the dim and distant past, up to Foxhunter BSJA, and Elem BD, but wouldn't consider myself more than keen Novice.

If your RC doesn't provide for you can you not ask them to go higher? I find RC covers everything I want to do. Training goes up to 1.10m SJ if needed, dressage goes from W/T to Medium, Sj shows have an open class of over 1.05 (height usually depends on who enters and how high they want to go).

XC is harder due to the fact that there are so few courses available in this area, but the Open class was always a good 3'3"/ 3'6".

If BRC has an 80cm class at Horse Trials that can only be a good thing, as that really does cater for the grassroots riders.
 
^^ I think this much very much depend on the number of club members though, if you only have say 3-4 in the higher bracket max then you need them all to be available at one time in order to make organising a group lesson at that level viable.
 
I am bang smack in the middle of the grass routes catagory. I feel I am very well catered for either higher end RC or lower end affiliated so have no complaints.

Should I wish to progress to the 'intermediate' catagory then I would be equally well catered for, although would have to significantly improve my standard of riding to be competitive.

In the nicest possible way LEC, you have a real bee in your bonnet about sitting in the middle. You feel you are above grass rootes, this is fine but perhaps if you found yourself ultra competitve at this grass roote level the step up to intermediate would be easier?
 
i'd call myself a decent amateur.
I know what you mean about RC... I saw an ad for local RC jumping the other day: Advanced - over 2'.
fgs, i expect my baby horses (when they're not being mental) to jump bigger than that! how the hell is that Advanced?! what do they call 3' or above, for heaven's sake?!

I think there's something for everyone though, if you feel like you're too big a fish for your pond, jump into the bigger pond.
I really don't see a glass ceiling for amateurs at BE, or at BD (never done BSJA above Fox level, but it's all there if you want to jump it!) - you keep going, and you go up a level when you think you're both up to it, no? I mean, i'd rather do a Intermediate, or a Medium, than pot-hunt at the lower levels. maybe there's no champs at that sort of level (well, not the sort that mere mortals might win) but just doing well at that level is a good accomplishment imho.
 
kerilli said:
i'd call myself a decent amateur.
I know what you mean about RC... I saw an ad for local RC jumping the other day: Advanced - over 2'.
fgs, i expect my baby horses (when they're not being mental) to jump bigger than that! how the hell is that Advanced?! what do they call 3' or above, for heaven's sake?!

I think there's something for everyone though, if you feel like you're too big a fish for your pond, jump into the bigger pond.
I really don't see a glass ceiling for amateurs at BE, or at BD (never done BSJA above Fox level, but it's all there if you want to jump it!) - you keep going, and you go up a level when you think you're both up to it, no? I mean, i'd rather do a Intermediate, or a Medium, than pot-hunt at the lower levels. maybe there's no champs at that sort of level (well, not the sort that mere mortals might win) but just doing well at that level is a good accomplishment imho.
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Our RC has that, only we run mini hunter trials and lessons for nervous/novice people so that category is advanced for them. If the first class in our mini-HT is 25cm, by the time you get to the 75cm (the biggest) it is advanced!

If your RC doesn't cater for you (and I'm sure open champs are round a 1.10m course) then maybe shake it up and make it cater for you? Join the committee and galvanise local 'nothing riders' into coming on your clinics. You have to make it happen if it isn't already...
 
Siennamum - I agree with you, back in my jumping days it was straight in at Newcomers with perhaps the odd smaller class like the Bucks Beginners/Priory Progress which would be a 3'3" class and the local shows often had 3'6"/4' opens and there was a strong core of us who alternated between the two.

I don't event or jump now but show and I prefer to be a little fish nibbling at the bottom end of the top level. As an amateur had intended to refocus my goals to a slightly lower level this year where there are less of the big pros in the classes but didn't as like going to the big shows.
 
RC's take a bit of an unfair bashing at times.

They are clubs at the end of the day run by volunteers who often have full time jobs alongside.

The scope of what RC covers is huge - and can cater from pre-pre W&T and pleasure rides / social to 2* eventing (think rural riders). I think for one club to cater for the whole spectrum well & efficiently is near on impossible. There for you will find some clubs target different rider groups and may have a more niche approach.

Within our area our club try's to cater for as much as possible and in doing so we are often a 'master of none' at some points. We rarely field an open team (and if we do it is virtually never competitive), but we cater quite well at Novice team level and dabble in intermediate.
On top of that there is quite an active clinic, camp & social section - with cheap group prelim/2ft clinics but also some more specialised options with 3ft+ groups.

Another local club caters less for the non-team candidates but has a very strong team contingent at all levels. Others seem to be more dressage orientated, and some you barely realise are even in your area given how non-competitive they are.

Some people focus all their competitve aims around riding club, which is fine, but for me I focus my aims more on individual affiliated competition and use RC to plug the gaps.

There are some cracking riders that compete at RC, so it does infuriate me a bit that RC is often dismissed as being full of fluffy numpties!
 
I do know where you are coming from LEC, but also just get on and make the most of what we have!

I was umming and arring to whether to re affiliate for BSJA the other day, as we have a lot of show centres local to us that do a variety of levels of competition. However, I couldn' find one that regularly holds SJing above 90cm with any competition ( I mean no. of competitiors, not the standard!), so decided reaffiliating and continuing to climb the levels will have to do! I think BSJA does have a lot of things to qualify for, in theory! The Blue Chips, Amateur champs, Scope, plus oppurtunities to compete at RIHS and HOYS at the higher amateur levels too, which is how it should be IMHO.

Eventing is a dressage competition at the lower levels, and a pro fest at the higher levels, plus the fact you get very little if you get placed at any level anyway, so you do seem to event a lot more for personal goals than anything else in my view!

I know very little about BD tbh, so can't really comment, but of all the disciplines, I know more "amateurs" who are successful in regards to high placings etc at affiliated Showjumping and dressage than I do eventing...

Our local RC's are a bit of a sore point with me tbh. One does aim for the championships, but is VERY clicky, and tbh does no training etc the support the higher level of RC, if you want to do the teams, you do your prep outside the RC, then join in for the champs. There is one who has the same people in the teams continuosly, but again, caters very much for the "leisure" competitors, so the shows are very novicey.

I also remember the time where good riding club shows started at 80cm Sjing, and went upto 1.10m easily, but now it is the norm to start at 50cm (!) and finish at 85cm....maybe a sign of what is wanted for a majority of members?!
 
I would love for BE to provide something for me to aim for - mainly because as Kat says, you get sweet FA for being competitive compared to the money you put in!!

I am reasonably competitive at the lower levels - have had a few decent placings this year. But because the horse has 4 points picked up with someone else, I can't do grassroots. I will never qualify for the Novice champs at Gatcombe because the pros round here dominate the RFs. On the one hand I suppose that means I am not good enough - on the other hand I have a full time job and no-one else picking up the bills. So if there was an 'open' section for the BE100 GR champs I'd love to have a crack, or if there was an amateur league for BE generally, it would really appeal to me.

The proof of this is that I have just joined BD principally because it is the only affiliated discipline where I can have a decent shot at getting to a championships since they have the area festival side of things. BE doesn't really cater for me at all in terms of providing some kind of championship to aim for, which is a pity.
 
I'm in your boat LEC!

I've got horses affiliated with all three main bodies and I have to say that I find I'm most successful at BD, despite having to go in Open sections. Despite generally poor BE dressage marks I seem to be able to hold my own at BD :confused:. I don't get out enough to make a decent bid for the Regionals (and wouldn't get anywhere if I did), but am aiming for Nov and Ele Area Festivals and I love have something feasible to qualify for.

BS - I compete mostly for ring experience and once you get above 1.10 it's relatively easy to pick up money even if by default as the classes are often much smaller. I'd say I was competitive at 1.10/1.15 but compete at 1.20 to make up the numbers!

Our riding club does cater well for the lower levels but I keep finding that I'm ineligible for things - eg. we do quite well in the Style Jumping but I'm not allowed to do that, even on a wobbly baby, as I've competed at FEI eventing. How that makes me stylish I'm not exactly sure! :rolleyes:. It's a shame as I'm never eligible for the club trophies (best team rider/horse etc.) as I can't compete at all the different area competitions due to ineligibility! Most of our teams are at Novice level so I have to go at Int/Open level as an individual - you only get one chance to qualify this way though as you aren't part of a team :(. It also means that I'm usually on very late in the day at the Areas. I go early to help the Novice teams but there's no-one left to cheer me on by the time I compete!

BE-wise I did read a comment yesterday from someone at BE saying (Debbie Marfell I think) that they were definitely considering a BE Nov Amateur Champs. This would be brilliant for those of us who are competent at Nov/Int but don't have a snowball's hope in hell at Gatcombe. I might even take credit for making the suggestion last time this topic was raised ;).
 
I think that BD does offer more purely because of the area festivals and the open/restricted sections. The real top level pros are not even eligible to compete in some of the lower classes other than HC, which means that if you go out at novice you wont find yourself competing against Carl Hester. I remeber Sj ing years ago and finding myself in the same class as Andy Austin and Annette Lewis (this was discovery or the like, nothing mega huge). The other thing about BD is that downgrading is an option. It has always seemed to me a bit mad that you cant downgrade a BS horse (dunno about BE?) for a less experienced rider.
 
imr said:
It has always seemed to me a bit mad that you cant downgrade a BS horse (dunno about BE?) for a less experienced rider.
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The am champs in BS is the same effect as downgrading. No limit of horses winning, just rider limits although I do think the rider limits could be a little tougher. You also get opens at all heights from 70cm so again no restriction on horses winnings.
What I would like to see is the top 250 rider list not being allowed to compete in the BN and Disco finals and have these finals at sensible heights in last rounds.
 
Maybe I do have a bee in my bonnet about it. I guess what I was trying to explore was how many people fall into this middle category because I think Grassroots is so well catered for.

Anyway I will stop moaning about it now as actually according to the poll nearly 1/3 fall into this category which sort of proves my point that there are more around than people think and will justify any plans I have for setting up area training with some top level trainers at a good variety of heights/levels.
 
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I/m a novice and never will be anything else and to me it does not matter. However, my daughter obviously falls into a bit of a lost category as well. Shes competed at BE Novice, has got points, and has won at the PC national champs at PC Open level dressage and eventing (same as/similar to BD Elementary/BE Novice), so not really a grassroots rider. However, she would not have a cat in hells chance of getting to Gatcombe for the Novice champs - she wouldnt even have a hope in hell getting placed at a N RF - thats pro territory. She cant now compete at the BE grassroots champs at Badminton as has points. OK, she can do the ONu18s (JRNs) at Weston Park. However, she is again in the minority with this, as her horse is not a 'made' horse which has competed at a much higher level with hundreds of points, which is what a lot of JRN horses are - again a subject for another debate and not here.

I guess we wont please everyone all of the time.
 
JunoXV said:
What I would like to see is the top 250 rider list not being allowed to compete in the BN and Disco finals and have these finals at sensible heights in last rounds.
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What I would like to see is a sensible number of horses qualifying at the regionals in BN and Disco - sometimes it is only 1 horse which means you only get about 10 horses in the final at Scope - I think that is what has killed the regionals.

I've just bought a green uncompeted horse, the world is my well catered for oyster. Last year though I struggled to find classes to enter sometimes as my horse had won far too much money.
 
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