The Ozzy Diaries

I wouldn't panic. You can get a sedative from the vet and go from there. He may come around in time. I thought one of mine was going to kill me and he almost did crush me when I went to clip a lower leg. A few months of some more exposure and he was fine. Not pleased, but tolerated it.

It might also be uncomfortable, so I wouldn't take it too personally.
 
Nancykitt said:
I did a little bit with scissors last week just so we could get a peek at his hooves ahead of the EP visit. I had to give up after about 20 seconds. Ozzy is very handy with his legs and it was just too dangerous.
He is fine with clippers on the body - we tried this today and there was no problem at all. Also OK at the top of the leg. Get to the knee and he goes pretty hysterical.

He now won’t let me anywhere near him! He is obviously upset about this morning, even though we didn’t chastise him in any way.

We need to get a look at these lumps asap so it looks like some sort of sedation will be required. Once we’ve seen what we’re dealing with, we can come up with a plan going forward.
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Cobs are such sensitive souls , people often say “bombproof Perfect for novices etc” but bloody hell they are Jekyll and Hyde. I would happily hack mine down the M25 but see a cow/pig/donkey I am not safe 🙈
 
It took about 2 years for my OH to persuade Snoopy that having legs clipped was OK. 20 years later we still have to ‘negotiate’ with him at times but he will generally let us do it with minimal fuss. But Snoopy’s leg clip was just because we wanted to show him as a (hogged & clipped) cob - with Ozzy, there’s a problem that we need to treat. I think that’s making me a bit more anxious than I probably should be!
OH as always is very calm and pragmatic. ‘We will find a solution!’
 
motherof2beasts! said:
Cobs are such sensitive souls , people often say “bombproof Perfect for novices etc” but bloody hell they are Jekyll and Hyde. I would happily hack mine down the M25 but see a cow/pig/donkey I am not safe 🙈
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😄 Absolutely! We still laugh about the time OH rode Snoopy past some workmen who were cutting up parts of a dry stone wall, using the biggest, noisiest, most dusty saw ever. Snoops just strolled through it all & everyone remarked on what an excellent horse he was!

Two minutes later he did the most giant spook and dramatic star jump of his like because a magpie flew across the path…😂
 
Dolly used to need her legs clipping, and I always had to get the vet to sedate. She was fine everywhere else.

Eventually, we could get them done using a nose twitch. Took a good couple of years to get to that point though.
 
If you can vet the vet to sedate to initially clip his legs perhaps you can keep on top of the regrowth with using Domosedan. The key to using it is to give it while the horse is relaxed so there's no adrenaline surge to counteract the effects of it. Wait until he is definitely feeling the effect of it before bringing out the clippers or anything else that could trigger him. Gradually, over a longish period of time you may be able to reduce the dose, especially when his legs are feeling more comfortable.
 
U.N.Owen said:
It is also possible to manage cpl, mites and mallenders without clipping the legs. Is just a bit harder
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Problem is, we haven't even got a firm diagnosis yet because we can't see anything, the feathers are so horrendously thick.
The only indication we have is a small lump at each side of the pastern, fairly symmetrical. I've not actually been able to feel the lumps as he will now not let me near him.
EP pointed them out to OH, he managed to feel them yesterday when Ozzy was having his trim.

I think it's important that we do see what we're dealing with before we start to treat it. But so far I have had no luck in obtaining a sedative from the vet. Gggrrrr.
 
Nancykitt said:
Problem is, we haven't even got a firm diagnosis yet because we can't see anything, the feathers are so horrendously thick.
The only indication we have is a small lump at each side of the pastern, fairly symmetrical. I've not actually been able to feel the lumps as he will now not let me near him.
EP pointed them out to OH, he managed to feel them yesterday when Ozzy was having his trim.

I think it's important that we do see what we're dealing with before we start to treat it. But so far I have had no luck in obtaining a sedative from the vet. Gggrrrr.
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It's a pity you are having these issues, but great to see so many other positives in his journey with you. To be fair to the vet, I am guessing they haven't seen him yet? If so, they shouldn't be supplying sedatives. Sorry if I have got that wrong.
 
Gloi said:
When the vet comes to do teeth and jabs he will presumably be sedated for his teeth so there may be a bit of a chance to clip then. Also the vet will be able to give him a Dectomax injection for mites while he is sedated too. Good luck.
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True - but it may not be for several months yet (seriously!). The practice is about 60 miles away and I don't think they're fond of coming over this way!

Today we drove over to the east to pick up horse feeds. The feed place is not far from the vet's practice, so I rang them up and explained the situation.
They said they wouldn't sell the sedative until I'd had a discussion with the vet and that he would phone me back today.
I said that I was in the area, about to go and do some food shopping from Tesco so it would be great if someone could get back to me and then I could easily pop over and pick up the sedative.
Lady on the phone said fine, I'll get him to phone you back, is this the best number to get you on, etc.

No phone call - I waited but eventually had to drive home.

I'll try again tomorrow, but I'm not able to go over that way for around two weeks.

ETA - if anyone can think of any other cause for small symmetrically placed lumps near the pasterns, let me know - EP is 95% sure it's CPL but none of us can tell without actually seeing!
 
nikicb said:
It's a pity you are having these issues, but great to see so many other positives in his journey with you. To be fair to the vet, I am guessing they haven't seen him yet? If so, they shouldn't be supplying sedatives. Sorry if I have got that wrong.
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I could understand that if they'd be willing to come out but it's really difficult to get them to come over here. So now I'm a bit stuck. Nothing we can do really other than wait.

The lady on the phone today implied that the vet might be able to supply an oral sedative if they had a discussion with me first, but that discussion hasn't happened yet.

I have to admit, one of the advantages of living in Lancs was that it was incredibly easy to pick up a sedative from the vet. I've used ACPs in the past but Dormosedan seems to be preferred these days. I don't mind as long as we get to clip the legs and have a good look at the problem!
 
In my experience Domosedan is much, much better than Sedalin, ACP, etc. I give it at least 30 minutes before needed and it must to onto the mucous membranes (I put it under the tongue) and not get squirted down their throat. Hopefully your vet will give you a prescription for it and you will be able to clip Ozzy's legs and see what is going on there.
 
Nancykitt said:
Problem is, we haven't even got a firm diagnosis yet because we can't see anything, the feathers are so horrendously thick.
The only indication we have is a small lump at each side of the pastern, fairly symmetrical. I've not actually been able to feel the lumps as he will now not let me near him.
EP pointed them out to OH, he managed to feel them yesterday when Ozzy was having his trim.

I think it's important that we do see what we're dealing with before we start to treat it. But so far I have had no luck in obtaining a sedative from the vet. Gggrrrr.
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Have you tried twitching Ozzy’s nose? Apply calmly and quickly, before bothering him by trying other restraints.
Then stand quietly for a couple of minutes while it takes effect, and then try downwards motion through the leg hair, not shaving too close initially.
Occasionally horses don’t respond as well, but the vast majority quieten down very effectively when twitched. Often the rope will slacken and drop off, yet they still stand. I think the pressure releases endorphins?
Anyway, unless someone makes a hamfisted, upsetting job of it, usually a twitch works well and safely for both handlers and horse, certainly worth trying. Horses can manage small treats whilst twitched, if that makes you feel more generous about using?!
Once standing calmly, holding up a foreleg while working on the others means less likelihood of his snatching a leg and banging himself against the clippers. There’s very little leg flesh, so clipper vibration can ‘rattle’ the cannon bone, top of coronary band, etc - easy to see why it might be disturbing!
Sounds like you’re going to need to do this very regularly, so won’t want to be packing him with drugs every time, which is expensive, not particularly healthy, and won’t resolve his concerns, either. Good luck.
 
Exasperated said:
Have you tried twitching Ozzy’s nose? Apply calmly and quickly, before bothering him by trying other restraints.
Then stand quietly for a couple of minutes while it takes effect, and then try downwards motion through the leg hair, not shaving too close initially.
Occasionally horses don’t respond as well, but the vast majority quieten down very effectively when twitched. Often the rope will slacken and drop off, yet they still stand. I think the pressure releases endorphins?
Anyway, unless someone makes a hamfisted, upsetting job of it, usually a twitch works well and safely for both handlers and horse, certainly worth trying. Horses can manage small treats whilst twitched, if that makes you feel more generous about using?!
Once standing calmly, holding up a foreleg while working on the others means less likelihood of his snatching a leg and banging himself against the clippers. There’s very little leg flesh, so clipper vibration can ‘rattle’ the cannon bone, top of coronary band, etc - easy to see why it might be disturbing!
Sounds like you’re going to need to do this very regularly, so won’t want to be packing him with drugs every time, which is expensive, not particularly healthy, and won’t resolve his concerns, either. Good luck.
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Thank you! We did try twitching Snoopy once but I can't say it worked particularly well...the vet came along and said 'this is how you do it', but it didn't work any better for him!
Snoopy was furious afterwards! It took a while for OH to gain his trust back! I stayed out of the way.

Having said that, at the moment, anything and everything is on the table...I agree that having to use a sedative every time is not ideal at all, but it's probably necessary for the first time given that we are not able to diagnose anything just yet. From there, we'll try either constant and persistent desensitisation (which is what we did with Snoopy) or twitching. (ETA - I would definitely want to be shown, in person, how to do this safely!)

Ozzy has no visible sores anywhere on his legs and there is no evidence of fluid build-up. Mites are very likely and we can treat these easily if we can clip him. The possible CPL lumps - we just need to get a good look at these.
 
I had one that was very sharp to shoe- her aim with teeth, front legs and hind legs was impressive, and she could get the farrier with any combination of the 3 from any position. Initially it was vet sedation only, but when that started to not work we had to think of different solutions. I had a brilliant NH trainer help and everything was done with positive reinforcement and very slowly, slowly, but the real game changer was using a pair of blinkers. She couldn’t then aim at the farrier. It really worked.
 
TheMule said:
I had one that was very sharp to shoe- her aim with teeth, front legs and hind legs was impressive, and she could get the farrier with any combination of the 3 from any position. Initially it was vet sedation only, but when that started to not work we had to think of different solutions. I had a brilliant NH trainer help and everything was done with positive reinforcement and very slowly, slowly, but the real game changer was using a pair of blinkers. She couldn’t then aim at the farrier. It really worked.
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Blinkers is an interesting idea - especially if it sorts out the cow kicks with the hind legs, which was the big issue today.

We would be quite happy to take things very slowly (2 years with Snoopy!) if there wasn't a potential CPL problem.

I think I'll have to try the vet again tomorrow.

ETA - I thought he might be difficult with the EP but he was incredibly co-operative. It just once the clippers get down to knee level - the explosion was pretty impressive!
 
Whatever is going on (which given what type he is probably is most likely a combo of CPL (hopefully mild given his age and lack of obvious sore) and mites) hasn’t happened overnight and so if it takes you a few weeks to get things in place (ie some form of sedation) to tackle clipping the hair off safely I really wouldn’t worry about it in the grand scheme of things.

Fingers crossed that once you’ve done that initial removal of the bulk of the hair then keeping on top of it and desensitising him to leg clipping will get easier
 
Nancykitt said:
Thank you! We did try twitching Snoopy once but I can't say it worked particularly well...the vet came along and said 'this is how you do it', but it didn't work any better for him!
Snoopy was furious afterwards! It took a while for OH to gain his trust back! I stayed out of the way.

Having said that, at the moment, anything and everything is on the table...I agree that having to use a sedative every time is not ideal at all, but it's probably necessary for the first time given that we are not able to diagnose anything just yet. From there, we'll try either constant and persistent desensitisation (which is what we did with Snoopy) or twitching. (ETA - I would definitely want to be shown, in person, how to do this safely!)

Ozzy has no visible sores anywhere on his legs and there is no evidence of fluid build-up. Mites are very likely and we can treat these easily if we can clip him. The possible CPL lumps - we just need to get a good look at these.
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I’d have said ask your vet or farrier to show you, bit unlucky with the other one!
If you fiddle about with Ozzy’s top lip, knead it gently, rub it, see if he’ll nuzzle you back (using his nose, not teeth), maybe show Flehmen posture, he will likely twitch up fine. If he goes full-on cage fighter, maybe not....
A nose twitch releases natural, mild, sedative & pain killing effects.
Was a standard vet safety practice when poking about in wounds and sore places, but some corporate vets today reach straight for the drugs, which beefs up the bill.
If he has mild CPL, good management can minimise effects. Senior vet always says ‘if you can’t catch the patient, can’t be much wrong’, and Ozzy’s legged it more than once, hasn’t he? I wouldn’t worry too much!
 
I'd suggest taking a step back. This pony has only just landed with you. If there are no wounds or painful sores identified yet, I would slow down. Pause and think - how much past his comfort zone did I go? It's clear from this post that you are aware of building up confidence in tasks. Think about breaking it down into tiny chunks and only doing one part of the procedure , then not proceeding until there is no reaction, no change in body tension. This will not be quick.
I would not twitch him and break the trust you have built unless absoloutely necessary.
Sedate him if you need to.
 
In sensitive animals there can be a strong reaction from very little to be seen. The RDA ended up with one at a vet hospital for sedation in the stocks, as he was out to kill anyone who touched his legs, even the farrier eventually. Barely a mark once all his feather came off. Treatment, clicker training and not allowing the feather to grow long again has got him back to being a happy chappie who will allow anyone to fondle his legs and feet. He was retired when the RDA gave up and now lives with a friend.
 
SusieT said:
I'd suggest taking a step back. This pony has only just landed with you. If there are no wounds or painful sores identified yet, I would slow down. Pause and think - how much past his comfort zone did I go? It's clear from this post that you are aware of building up confidence in tasks. Think about breaking it down into tiny chunks and only doing one part of the procedure , then not proceeding until there is no reaction, no change in body tension. This will not be quick.
I would not twitch him and break the trust you have built unless absoloutely necessary.
Sedate him if you need to.
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Good post.

Also, might be worth trying a Likit. My little feral Shetland hates having her feet trimmed, but will stand pretty well for the full molasses Likit (used very occasionally it won't do any harm).
 
I think Red's advice about using positive reinforcement was good.

I have a reactive horse who was dangerous to handle legs-wise initially, it has taken a lot of patience and consistency but he is now a lot better as a result of using food rewards.

With the clippers, I would turn them on next to him if he is okay with them higher up on his body, not actually use them but reward him for standing next to them turned on and buzzing. Just simple hay nuts are a good reward. Repeat this often so he begins to associate clipper sounds with 'I get a treat'.

Then you can gradually work your way down towards his legs - work out where the safe zone still is and actually press the clippers up to him, then reward. The important thing is to make it clear that you're rewarding him relaxing and not reacting.

Hopefully once you get a little further down past his comfort zone, his association will already be more positive. But there's no quick or easy fix for fear around leg handling imo - the long-term payoff for both of you will be amazing though.
 
Another vote for some targeted R+. I was helping one of the yard teens with her cob mare who had fairly painful sallenders and it didn't have to be consistent or perfect to really help desensitize the mare to having her legs handled. I suspect she had been bullied into complying with having her legs clipped previously as her reaction to just having them handled was fairly bad. Similarly fine for feet and with farrier but NOT when she knew it was her feathers you were looking to touch. Possible Ozzy has had a similar experience and has some negative associations to work through. She was sedated to have them clipped, but she is much much better for the day to day upkeep now, Teen can do her own feather oil applications!
 
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