The Ozzy Diaries

[moosea]

Yep. Seriously aggressive I agree.

I personally dont think lunging and biting is serious aggression.

My chestnut mare would literally try to kill you in the field - no one could go in her field, ever.
She would charge at you, head down ears pinned and strike with her fronts then spin and double barrel at you.

Ozzy has made some threats and made contact once, but I agree that his behaviour needs attention.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

it's bad, but he did exactly the same thing with AJ in the early days. Poor AJ didn't have the benefit of a coat and a gilet.

It's really not good that he saw me as another horse and did this.

After feeling a bit more positive today I'm back to feeling that this probably isn't going to end well at all and it's pretty depressing.

You can only do what you can do, and try to keep yourself safe.

You have a risk mitigation plan in place for now, with OH doing the feeding. I think in your shoes, I'd put some time frames for plans in place.

I might do something, as an example but obviously totally up to you based on your priorities and comfort level, like... plan to start proper groundwork where OH can work with pushing his boundaries and breaking through those trigger points in [April/May/ month that suits] with an aim to you doing groundwork with OH present so you can reset the relationship in [June/ July / months following].

Then I'd probably agree a plan with OH to minimise your interactions with him until then but know you have a goal to work towards rather than being caught in a holding pattern - but with caveats that if he crosses lines with OH that you reevaluate. And I'd discuss and agree what those lines are up front because it's easy to lose sight of what is a red line when it happens. We naturally want to make excuses for horses because we want so much for them to be ok.

 

[Cloball]

@moosea I don't think it's a competition both behaviours and can would cause significant damage to a fragile human and are therefore serious. The fact that he came over the fence is also significant.

 

[moosea]

@moosea I don't think it's a competition both behaviours and can would cause significant damage to a fragile human and are therefore serious. The fact that he came over the fence is also significant.

IMHO there are levels of aggression. I don't think biting t feed time is what I would consider an act of serious aggression which would warrant PTS on the first occassion.

 

[Cloball]

There's a bite and there's lunging over a fence and causing soft tissue damage to a joint and throwing someone which is how I interpreted it.

 

[tristars]

I believe in lunging, 15 minutes over some trotting poles, varying paces and circles does wonders for every horse I know, its not like the time to tack up and ride, and 15 minutes does a horse no damage, infact it gets em fit suppler. Switches on the brain, it's fun, they love it, and it's a great help timewise. And settles the energy, or do it before riding, then let em stand for 10 minutes, they really come down and relax into their ridden work

And makes the safer to ride if missing a few work sessions

Not at the mo in the gales up there though

You need to start collecting Al these little aids now and use them to set him up for success as the evenings get lighter

 

[Nancykitt]

I'd also think about maybe watching him in the field for a few hours, as you have one haybell between 3 (?) are you sure he is getting his fair share?

One good thing about where we live is that we can just look out of the window and watch them for as long as we like. It’s a big haybell (4ft -5ft diameter bale) with four feeding ‘windows’ between the three horses. They just choose a window and eat. They go for a drink, they go for a play in the field. If you saw them playing you’d think AJ was the alpha! It’s all very good tempered really. One bale lasts 5-7 days.
I do think Ozzy sees me as easily dominated - compared to OH certainly. And at the moment he can tell that I’m scared of him. I really hope we can change this.

 

[moosea]

One good thing about where we live is that we can just look out of the window and watch them for as long as we like. It’s a big haybell (4ft -5ft diameter bale) with four feeding ‘windows’ between the three horses. They just choose a window and eat. They go for a drink, they go for a play in the field. If you saw them playing you’d think AJ was the alpha! It’s all very good tempered really. One bale lasts 5-7 days.
I do think Ozzy sees me as easily dominated - compared to OH certainly. And at the moment he can tell that I’m scared of him. I really hope we can change this.

That is why I suggest the your OH is the one to verbaly reprimand him at the first sign of anything untoward.
That will hopefully re enforce your higher position!

I'm sure you will do great with him - you have made soooo much progress with him

 

[moosea]

There's a bite and there's lunging over a fence and causing soft tissue damage to a joint and throwing someone which is how I interpreted it.

I wasn't aware there was soft tissue damage apart from bruising?

I've bruised my leg on my bedpost, didn't throw the bed out! ( did swear at it a lot!! )

 

[Nancykitt]

I wasn't aware there was soft tissue damage apart from bruising?

I've bruised my leg on my bedpost, didn't throw the bed out! ( did swear at it a lot!! )

I have two dark red bruises, one on top of the shoulder and one below. The skin isn’t broken but the arm was quite sore last night, plus the pins & needles. It’s not too bad today - I’m still scared though!
My worst injury was when we’d been out on AJ and Snoopy back in Lancs. Snoopy was tied up with a haynet; I dismounted AJ and led him to his stable. Snoopy must have thought that AJ was going for his hay and threw an almighty kick that got me in the thigh and launched me. I thought he’d broken my leg, it was really painful. It turned into the most massive bruise I’d ever had-covered almost the whole leg.
Last night’s injury was nowhere near as bad but the aggression was very clearly directed at me and not an accident!

 

[paddy555]

NK described him launching at her, so much so that he half reared and then knocked her off her feet with the bite and almost threw her.

I don't know what else to describe that as but seriously aggressive - I don't think that is behaving as a horse at all!

we will have to differ. We have a young horse (because that is what he is)) who hasn't been taught manners by anyone who sees his feed coming and lunged for it knocking down the carrier and biting in his desire to get as his food. No more and no less. Now that becomes an overwhelming issue. He is known to be food aggressive and to sadly be lacking training in many areas. It was an accident that could have been predicted to happen and humans have to take quite a lot of responsibility I'm afraid. It is not about making excuses for horses. We are the human with the brain to evaluate and pre empt stuff and the continual need to keep ourselves safe.

it seems to be assumed that just because he is a horse he should have good manners, be polite and stand back at feeding time., . Of course a horse should behave but then most horses have been taught what that is. Clearly he hasn't and in the back of his mind there are 2 other horses next to him. We can't blame him, we need to educate him and make life easier for him and most of all to be fully aware and protect ourselves.

Thanks for this - I actually think that Ozzy may have been very spoilt in his early years. Don't know for certain, but there are photos of him as a 'cute foal' on the yard where he was born (and it looks like he was an unexpected arrival). He seemed to be an escapologist, as well as being generally 'naughty' (stealing his mum's food, etc).
When he moved to his next home he was almost 6 and unbroken. He was backed and ridden by his owner - there are videos showing a very compliant horse. But then he was turned away for a long time. So lots of question marks. I still wonder why he wasn't started at 4/5 - or maybe he was and it didn't go according to plan?
The trauma of the auction, his time with the dealer and the subsequent moves really impacted his behaviour. But perhaps a lack of boundaries as a youngster could be at the root of this issue?

so AFAIK he was in one home until nearly 6. Probably with horses he had grown up with and knew his place with.


then he was ridden, I do remember pics showing a young girl getting on bareback and riding him. She may even have had a headcollar on. It was difficult to see anything difficult about him in that pic. He didn't look bargy,, difficult or nasty. Just a nice cob.

Doesn't anyone think that then going to an auction, getting shifted to a dealer's, going to another home and then travelling half the length of the country to Scotland and being turned out with 2 strange horses ie a herd he has no idea of his place in and people he didn't know may have affected him? In my experience all that lot in such a short period of time could have totally unsettled him and left him struggling. Was he ever fed in a group before he came to Scotland. He may have had little hard feed, it may have been in a stable on his own. Horses take their history with them. That is not making excuses for him it is simply fact.
When you buy a horse you are also buying it's history. I think he has been with NK for 8 months, that is nothing for a horse that has been moved several times.

He reminds me so much of one of my horses, Little Mouse. He came at 5 but was one stage further down the line than Ozzy, he was booked on the lorry to Potter's. I took him, I was incensed that anyone should destroy a young horse in that way through no fault of his own. I watched him in his previous yard. Ears back and flew at his owner each time they walked past (no food involved). When he arrived I found how serious the biting was. You were OK in front up to his shoulder but any further back and that was it. He didn't bite he very seriously savaged you and he meant it. No food involved. He brought his history with him and seriously hated people from his previous handling. So no LG I don't think lunging and biting when there is a bin of food is serious aggression with no reason.

 

[jhoward]

I personally dont think lunging and biting is serious aggression.

My chestnut mare would literally try to kill you in the field - no one could go in her field, ever.
She would charge at you, head down ears pinned and strike with her fronts then spin and double barrel at you.

Ozzy has made some threats and made contact once, but I agree that his behaviour needs attention.

Sounds like the chestnut mare I had.
And she meant it to human or horse

 

[moosea]

I have two dark red bruises, one on top of the shoulder and one below. The skin isn’t broken but the arm was quite sore last night, plus the pins & needles. It’s not too bad today - I’m still scared though!
My worst injury was when we’d been out on AJ and Snoopy back in Lancs. Snoopy was tied up with a haynet; I dismounted AJ and led him to his stable. Snoopy must have thought that AJ was going for his hay and threw an almighty kick that got me in the thigh and launched me. I thought he’d broken my leg, it was really painful. It turned into the most massive bruise I’d ever had-covered almost the whole leg.
Last night’s injury was nowhere near as bad but the aggression was very clearly directed at me and not an accident!

I really understand being afraid and nervous and unsure - that's exactly how I would feel too.

But try to remember that you were afraid and nervous and unsure when ozzy was biting A.J and when he was refusing to move and when he wouldn't stop moving and when his legs needed clipping and yet you overcame all of that in less than a year! Don't be too hard on yourself - you were in between a cob and his dinner!

I'm massivley impressed with how far you have brought Ozzy so far.

All I can say is don't take it too personally and put things in place so it can't happen again.

You'll probably re read this thread in 5 or 10 years and smile at how your perfect horse Ozzy could have been such a rogue!!

 

[misst]

So as an absolute coward I sympathise with NK who is much braver than me.

I have adored all our horses but one of the 4 really could scare me. He was big young and bolshy. I am very short. He could feel I was defensive so when leading him he would barge me, go up and tank with me. A chifney made the world of difference, to me not him!

He rarely tried this with anyone else and my 16yo daughter managed him fine. Once you've lost confidence it's very difficult.

I feel NK has come in for a bit of a hard time from some people.
The reasons he did this are, in someway, irrelevant. He did do it. He hurt her a lot, he scared her a lot. She's working through it with her OH as best as she possibly can. Shes explained the geographical limitations but still people are suggesting lunging etc.
Whatever happens they are giving Ozzie the best possible chance they can.

 

[Clodagh]

So as an absolute coward I sympathise with NK who is much braver than me.

I have adored all our horses but one of the 4 really could scare me. He was big young and bolshy. I am very short. He could feel I was defensive so when leading him he would barge me, go up and tank with me. A chifney made the world of difference, to me not him!

He rarely tried this with anyone else and my 16yo daughter managed him fine. Once you've lost confidence it's very difficult.

I feel NK has come in for a bit of a hard time from some people.
The reasons he did this are, in someway, irrelevant. He did do it. He hurt her a lot, he scared her a lot. She's working through it with her OH as best as she possibly can. Shes explained the geographical limitations but still people are suggesting lunging etc.
Whatever happens they are giving Ozzie the best possible chance they can.

alleluia a sensible reply!!

 

[LadyGascoyne]

we will have to differ. We have a young horse (because that is what he is)) who hasn't been taught manners by anyone who sees his feed coming and lunged for it knocking down the carrier and biting in his desire to get as his food. No more and no less. Now that becomes an overwhelming issue. He is known to be food aggressive and to sadly be lacking training in many areas. It was an accident that could have been predicted to happen and humans have to take quite a lot of responsibility I'm afraid. It is not about making excuses for horses. We are the human with the brain to evaluate and pre empt stuff and the continual need to keep ourselves safe.

it seems to be assumed that just because he is a horse he should have good manners, be polite and stand back at feeding time., . Of course a horse should behave but then most horses have been taught what that is. Clearly he hasn't and in the back of his mind there are 2 other horses next to him. We can't blame him, we need to educate him and make life easier for him and most of all to be fully aware and protect ourselves.


so AFAIK he was in one home until nearly 6. Probably with horses he had grown up with and knew his place with.


then he was ridden, I do remember pics showing a young girl getting on bareback and riding him. She may even have had a headcollar on. It was difficult to see anything difficult about him in that pic. He didn't look bargy,, difficult or nasty. Just a nice cob.

Doesn't anyone think that then going to an auction, getting shifted to a dealer's, going to another home and then travelling half the length of the country to Scotland and being turned out with 2 strange horses ie a herd he has no idea of his place in and people he didn't know may have affected him? In my experience all that lot in such a short period of time could have totally unsettled him and left him struggling. Was he ever fed in a group before he came to Scotland. He may have had little hard feed, it may have been in a stable on his own. Horses take their history with them. That is not making excuses for him it is simply fact.
When you buy a horse you are also buying it's history. I think he has been with NK for 8 months, that is nothing for a horse that has been moved several times.

He reminds me so much of one of my horses, Little Mouse. He came at 5 but was one stage further down the line than Ozzy, he was booked on the lorry to Potter's. I took him, I was incensed that anyone should destroy a young horse in that way through no fault of his own. I watched him in his previous yard. Ears back and flew at his owner each time they walked past (no food involved). When he arrived I found how serious the biting was. You were OK in front up to his shoulder but any further back and that was it. He didn't bite he very seriously savaged you and he meant it. No food involved. He brought his history with him and seriously hated people from his previous handling. So no LG I don't think lunging and biting when there is a bin of food is serious aggression with no reason.

I really don't understand your post? My concern is not about there being 'no reason' or whether the reason is caused by humans. My concern is purely whether NK wants to subject herself to the risk of dealing with the behavior. Of course we can agree to disagree but I would call what he did aggressive, and it doesn't automatically follow for me that another horse being more aggressive means he's not being aggressive.

Some posters might have the set up, confidence and tolerance to either live with and manage an aggressive horse or resolve its behaviors but that doesn't mean that everyone will or that those that can't should feel pressured to persevere despite putting themselves at risk.

I, personally, don't think I could keep a horse at home that I thought might try to savage someone or that I couldn't trust if a walker accidentally went into its field (like other posters have described, not specific to Ozzy). I'd think I'd worry too much about children, neighbours, farm workers, yard staff etc to have an animal here which I felt had a high risk of deliberately trying to hurt someone. I certainly wouldn't be able to if I felt I didn't have the set up, tools or capabilities to resolve that behavior - and quickly. But my horses are pets. They hack and do some schooling but they aren't valuable sports horse where I totally understand that for some people talent can sometimes offset other risks. No judgment for those who can offer those horses a decent life and still stay safe and keep others safe at the same time - that's fantastic.

With Ozzy's behavior, launching over the fence and grabbing someone would be an issue for me. It wouldn't matter to me whether it was caused by humans, all that would matter is whether I thought it was something I could resolve or I had the set up to cope with if it wasn't fixable. Only NK will know the answer to that for Ozzy but I could never judge her whatever she chooses.

 

[Nancykitt]

so AFAIK he was in one home until nearly 6. Probably with horses he had grown up with and knew his place with.


then he was ridden, I do remember pics showing a young girl getting on bareback and riding him. She may even have had a headcollar on. It was difficult to see anything difficult about him in that pic. He didn't look bargy,, difficult or nasty. Just a nice cob.

Doesn't anyone think that then going to an auction, getting shifted to a dealer's, going to another home and then travelling half the length of the country to Scotland and being turned out with 2 strange horses ie a herd he has no idea of his place in and people he didn't know may have affected him? In my experience all that lot in such a short period of time could have totally unsettled him and left him struggling. Was he ever fed in a group before he came to Scotland. He may have had little hard feed, it may have been in a stable on his own. Horses take their history with them. That is not making excuses for him it is simply fact.
When you buy a horse you are also buying its nhistory. I think he has been with NK for 8 months, that is nothing for a horse that has been moved several times.

I think Ozzy may have been spoilt in his first home. I’ve tracked down some photos on the net and it looks like he was a bit of a yard pet - the ‘pink pony’ -who might have got away with stuff because of his cuteness. His second owner rode him and the videos seem to show a nice well-mannered cob, but we can’t know the whole story. The owner admitted that he’d been out of work for a long time and it would take an experienced rider to bring him back into work. There are photos of him in a field in winter, seemingly alone (but I can’t be sure 100% sure).
There’s a phot of him at auction that makes me quite upset - so many people crowded around. He’s led a sheltered life and this must have been so difficult.
Then he went off with a dealer…he wasn’t there long but goodness knows what happened to him. And then to West Yorks, where the yard owners insisted he was shut in a stable. It seems like he behaved badly - but he must have been so stressed.
When he arrived with us, he’d done well over 1000 miles in just a few weeks. The rest of the story is documented here. This is an 8 year old going on 4, green as anything, sheltered life and yet having been through huge stress and trauma.

I could not have considered taking on Ozzy if it wasn’t for OH and his seemingly limitless patience. He is concerned for me and my injuries but honestly believes that we can make further progress with Ozzy. We’ll see how it goes.

 

[paddy555]

I really don't understand your post? My concern is not about there being 'no reason' or whether the reason is caused by humans. My concern is purely whether NK wants to subject herself to the risk of dealing with the behavior. Of course we can agree to disagree but I would call what he did aggressive, and it doesn't automatically follow for me that another horse being more aggressive means he's not being aggressive.

Some posters might have the set up, confidence and tolerance to either live with and manage an aggressive horse or resolve its behaviors but that doesn't mean that everyone will or that those that can't should feel pressured to persevere despite putting themselves at risk.

I, personally, don't think I could keep a horse at home that I thought might try to savage someone or that I couldn't trust if a walker accidentally went into its field (like other posters have described, not specific to Ozzy). I'd think I'd worry too much about children, neighbours, farm workers, yard staff etc to have an animal here which I felt had a high risk of deliberately trying to hurt someone. I certainly wouldn't be able to if I felt I didn't have the set up, tools or capabilities to resolve that behavior - and quickly. But my horses are pets. They hack and do some schooling but they aren't valuable sports horse where I totally understand that for some people talent can sometimes offset other risks. No judgment for those who can offer those horses a decent life and still stay safe and keep others safe at the same time - that's fantastic.

With Ozzy's behavior, launching over the fence and grabbing someone would be an issue for me. It wouldn't matter to me whether it was caused by humans, all that would matter is whether I thought it was something I could resolve or I had the set up to cope with if it wasn't fixable. Only NK will know the answer to that for Ozzy but I could never judge her whatever she chooses.

we will have to beg to differ. AFAIK Ozzy hasn't savaged for example a walker who has passed through his field with no explanation whatsoever. He has simply lunged and bitten in his anxiety and stress to get his feed. Yes it is unpleasant,, yes it hurts I have been bitten by horses and I know how it feels. There are many horses in individual stables who have kicked out, trapped, bitten for example handlers going in with their feeds. The common advice on here is usually to take extra care, put the feed in beforehand, don't let the horse trap you or whatever. I cannot see this is any different. Those horses would equally have lunged and bitten if they had got the chance. I find it strange that you don't take into account the reason behind the behaviour a little more.

If you buy a horse and you know it's history/problems then it is a case of working through them as Mr NK with his patience is very clearly aware. I'm sure Ozzy can make progress and I wish him a lot of luck with the horse. What Ozzy did was predictable and readable from his behaviour, he is not a killer horse that went and attacked someone out of the blue. With a bit of thought his behaviour iro this can be resolved and Mr NK does seem to already be working with his schooling whip to explain the situation to Ozzy.

Ozzy has been let down in his early years/training, auction and subsequent moves. I think that must be taken into account when considering his behaviour.

Our views may very much differ as mine are based on taking on horses who have basically been put in these situations by humans so I have a lot of sympathy for the horses.

 

[jojo5]

This is going to sound like a very simplistic thing but….its your first winter with Ozzy - what’s your grass like? Could he simply be more hungry and therefore even more food- defensive? I know you have hay out there but just thinking of my old boy and the big boy I have now - both fairly ‘mardy’ around resources when more hungry than usual, even though neither have ever been short of hay. Ozzy has lived a life in which his normal equine behaviour has been affected by the way in which humans have dealt with him - guarding food, and his body and movement, would be his first lines of defence.

 

[Sandstone1]

One of mine gets grumpy if he does not come in at night once the weather gets cold and wet. He is quite happy out until the ground gets churned up. Once its muddy he wants in at night and I think he likes to come in for a feed and a sleep on a dry bed. He has a shelter and food in field but come Dec when its bleak he gets grumpy if he can not come in. Think some of them just like a break from being out in the weather.

 

[Nancykitt]

This is going to sound like a very simplistic thing but….its your first winter with Ozzy - what’s your grass like? Could he simply be more hungry and therefore even more food- defensive? I know you have hay out there but just thinking of my old boy and the big boy I have now - both fairly ‘mardy’ around resources when more hungry than usual, even though neither have ever been short of hay. Ozzy has lived a life in which his normal equine behaviour has been affected by the way in which humans have dealt with him - guarding food, and his body and movement, would be his first lines of defence.

When we first got Ozzy it was clear that he had developed a serious issue around hay/haynets. He was also underweight. Interestingly he was more protective of a haynet than bucket feed. At that time it was summer so still lots of grass, but as time went on, if we put haynets out he would quickly eat his and then go and fight the other two for their nets. He would threaten, kick and bite them with the result that Snoopy & AJ were getting very little hay!

The haybell was the best purchase for years. It took a couple of days for them to understand that there was no shortage and they settled well. We have pretty much no grass and the field is flooded; there’s nothing we can do about that. Ozzy has put on a lot of weight and we can see that they are all getting plenty of hay.
We don’t have a stable so can’t bring them in. Having said that, Ozzy has CPL so 24/7 turnout is much better for him.

 

[jojo5]

@Nancykitt i do hope it didn’t sound as if I was in any way making any criticism of how your horses are kept - this was not meant at all - we each have our own situations. I didn’t express it well ( late night and lack of sleep ) but I was simply meaning that , certainly with my own, I am sometimes looking and looking for reasons for behaviour when it could simply be a combination of being slightly more hungry and fed up with the weather. I know horses don’t evaluate the weather conditions before anyone jumps on me and says ‘please’ ( am I the only person who hates the smugly condescending way this word is sometimes used?) don’t anthropomorphise equine behaviour, but during 30 years of horse-keeping I have had experience of horse temperament changing in relentless winter weather. Would like to add that I applaud your work so far in meeting Ozzy where he is whilst also establishing behaviour expectations in his interactions.

 

[nagblagger]

I disagree @moosea that he could be sold with full disclosure. Any 'wannabe' could buy him thinking they could deal with this behaviour, but due to their inexperience could be injured or worse. He could also be sold onto the dealer circuit, which is where he came from, and have an appalling life. There are a lot worse things than PTS.

 

[tristars]

@Nancykitt i do hope it didn’t sound as if I was in any way making any criticism of how your horses are kept - this was not meant at all - we each have our own situations. I didn’t express it well ( late night and lack of sleep ) but I was simply meaning that , certainly with my own, I am sometimes looking and looking for reasons for behaviour when it could simply be a combination of being slightly more hungry and fed up with the weather. I know horses don’t evaluate the weather conditions before anyone jumps on me and says ‘please’ ( am I the only person who hates the smugly condescending way this word is sometimes used?) don’t anthropomorphise equine behaviour, but during 30 years of horse-keeping I have had experience of horse temperament changing in relentless winter weather. Would like to add that I applaud your work so far in meeting Ozzy where he is whilst also establishing behaviour expectations in his interactions.

Now no pussy footing about round here, only outdoor arena

The weather is a huge factor in deciding what work to give a horse on any particular day, some are fine in all weathers, some hate the wind some hate the rain

Horses have preferences, they are sensitive intelligent creatures, even getting them in at night is thought through to take the most sensible approach for them and the handler

I totally agree with looking for reasons, one of which could be the weather

 

[Exasperated]

I disagree @moosea that he could be sold with full disclosure. Any 'wannabe' could buy him thinking they could deal with this behaviour, but due to their inexperience could be injured or worse. He could also be sold onto the dealer circuit, which is where he came from, and have an appalling life. There are a lot worse things than PTS.

Entirely agree there are worse outcomes than ‘PTS’ for horses, especially animals which are less straightforward.

However, see 663 post, not necessarily straightforward to achieve or considered to be ethical.

No idea about Nancy’s vets, maybe very pragmatic, but there are plenty of (often younger) vets who would baulk at destroying a perfectly healthy young horse simply because the current owners (albeit very well meaning / patient/ all the rest) can’t handle him.

This horse isn’t ‘savage’, he simply has no respect for Nancy as a human, even tho he probably quite enjoys lots of the things she does with him.

Here - withholding and delaying access to his food - so get lost, drive her off, same as he would treat another horse. Fine and normal if you are another horse with thicker skin, stronger bones, and the option to boot the living sh*t out of him in return - completely unacceptable and unimaginably dangerous when directed against any humans.
And historically his pig-ignorance with humans not confined to Nancy (altho can’t imagine Devine cobs tolerated much!) - so therein lies the problem for a fresh purchaser.

But ethically, should such an inconvenient animal be destroyed, when in different hands or with different management it could (and in my opinion, should) make a useful horse?

Vets may well find that very difficult, I believe Nancy and husband would have the same dilemma, so do hope they will reassess and get on top of this before anyone gets permanently damaged - including the horse.

 

[Nancykitt]

OH and I have had a long chat about everything this morning. A few interesting points have come up, especially with regard to changes in herd dynamics. In the 23 years we’ve had Snoopy he’s moved from lower order to alpha and then back a little once AJ became more assertive. The situation with Ozzy has thrown other stuff into the mix and the dynamics do seem to change from time to time. AJ will tolerate Ozzy’s bolshiness to a certain extent but he has been known to to give Ozzy an absolute pasting when the line has been crossed. And with Ozzy, it’s all about food.

These changes in dynamics could well be a factor. There are no excuses for attacking me and this does need sorting-but I do now make a clear distinction between food-related aggression and general persistent nastiness towards humans in all situations.
When ridden recently, Ozzy has been fine to tack up, very responsive to his rider and safe in traffic (better than AJ!) - so we are not prepared to write him off just yet. He has gone from being nappy and bad tempered (bucking) to compliant and enjoying his hacks.

OH reminded me that it took 15 years for Snoopy to calm down a little at feed times. Admittedly he never bit, but that was partly because we gave him the bucket, got out of the way and didn’t go back until he’d finished. I’m sure that if we’d have hung around and given Snoopy the impression that we were going to take his food, we’d end up injured.

It’s not ideal, I would really like them all to be like AJ (and Finn) - absolute saints at feed time. But their early experiences often set the tone for life and we are limited in what we can do about this.

 

[misst]

The idea of trying to sell this horse as he is now upsets me.
How on earth do you ensure he goes to a suitable home with "the right" set up?
People lie about and overestimate their abilities. Even with full disclosure it could go horribly wrong. He's sensitive and takes time to settle. I would not want anyone inexperienced around him, or children. He doesn't load willingly, and yes a professional transporter would get him on a lorry, but at what cost to Ozzies confidence.
He's ripe for ending up at a bin end dealer again. My vets would have been very pragmatic. The senior partner used to say there are plenty of sound easy horses in the world, don't get injured or bankrupted by persevering with one you can no longer do right by easily. Don't pass them on. PTS and know no one else will get injured or bankrupted either.
NK and her other half have made great strides
This may or may not be a blip but they don't deserve to be guilted over anything.

 

[Nancykitt]

My view is that, in a worse case scenario (ie, a horse is persistently aggressive and dangerous to humans), PTS is better than selling on. There may be exceptions- eg, in Lancs I personally knew people who were skilled in working with problem horses and I would have been happy for them to work with Ozzy. But selling on to the open market is a different matter. Because of his unusual appearance & colour he will always be attractive to some and there are unscrupulous dealers who won’t think twice about passing on a horse with serious issues.
I couldn’t live with the thought that I’d passed on a horse to be moved from pillar to post and possibly hurt someone.

But we’re not at that point yet.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Well said, misst.

The keyboard experts are busy upping their self proclaimed horse wrangling skills while trying to guilt trip NK into believing that she is not adequately dealing with this unpredictably difficult and aggressive horse.

Lunging over a fence to savage a human is not normal horse behaviour, no matter how difficult the horse’s past. What would have happened if the fence hadn’t been there to back him off? Follow through for the kill?

This horse has already had a second chance when NK took him on. He should not get a third if NK and her OH decide that they no longer feel safe around him and want him gone.

 

[Peglo]

Well said, misst.

The keyboard experts are busy upping their self proclaimed horse wrangling skills while trying to guilt trip NK into believing that she is not adequately dealing with this unpredictably difficult and aggressive horse.

Lunging over a fence to savage a human is not normal horse behaviour, no matter how difficult the horse’s past. What would have happened if the fence hadn’t been there to back him off? Follow through for the kill?

This horse has already had a second chance when NK took him on. He should not get a third if NK and her OH decide that they no longer feel safe around him and want him gone.

But I’m sure they will be there to take Ozzy off NK’s hands if they choose not to continue with him…