The positive reinforcement and clicker training thread

[HaplessHorse]

The reason it was weird was because she walked past home, however, I think it could’ve been her stressing at the duration of time she had to stand, and doing a “safe action”, which she would’ve been taught young (ie. Pull). She probably had to stand over a minute, of course the day and moment when I chose to take her back from her walk ended up being insanely busy .

Although I don’t have an arena at home or anywhere within an hour, my stables are on a working vineyard with tours, markets, and big events happening monthly. So everything I’ve done with her has been done in a high-distraction setting, which she was fantastic at. With her, I do always ensure that I have leverage. She normally doesn’t need the extra leverage, but it’s for the occasional situations with propensity to be dangerous. The first thing I taught her when she arrived was to stand and respect direction from me. Cob has also always been very good at standing before going through the gate, I think it may just be a case of keeping things short and sweet.

She’s also in charge of her “herd” of her and Saus, Cob has never been a dominant mare before, but Saus is soooo low in any herd that Cob can boss her around. It could be that she power-walks out of a need to “protect” Saus. I never noticed this behaviour when cob was in her previous home, so it could be a case of cob learning that Saus will live when she leaves.

 

[HaplessHorse]

Yesterday she was fairly good and tolerated walking back home at a calm pace, although she did attempt to push onto the bit. She was a bit nippy once she came home, and a little bit stressy.

Today it’s like she’s had some kind of lightbulb moment, I also changed tack in terms of what we did when she got home, which could’ve helped the nipping. She was brilliant walking out and coming back, she waited nicely for some cars to pass at the gate. Once we were back I let her have a breather before we did some light lunging (walk and a bit of trot). She was very good with her lunging and relaxed into a long and low position (partly because she wanted to eat the grass, but I’ll take the win! ).

I think I’ll do the same tomorrow and, depending on how she feels, I might go a few steps further.

Sorry about hijacking the thread, I’ll pay penance with a photo of the dozy cob!

 

[stangs]

The reason it was weird was because she walked past home, however, I think it could’ve been her stressing at the duration of time she had to stand, and doing a “safe action”, which she would’ve been taught young (ie. Pull). She probably had to stand over a minute, of course the day and moment when I chose to take her back from her walk ended up being insanely busy .

Almost sounds like the opposition reflex kicking in. She pulls to get home or because she's stressed/frustrated, you then have to pull back to try get some control, and then she eventually forgets her initial goal and just keeps pulling because you're pulling.

She was very good with her lunging and relaxed into a long and low position (partly because she wanted to eat the grass, but I’ll take the win! ).

In other words, you deliberately lunged on grass so the grass could act as an affordance to encourage the nervous system to permit the downward stretch

Sorry about hijacking the thread, I’ll pay penance with a photo of the dozy cob!

It's not hijacking in the slightest - you're helping stop this thread from dying a very quick death - and it's good to hear that things are going well.

 

[smolmaus]

I will not let this thread die if I have to post every day

Well done dozy cob! She is beautiful

We hacked to the local XC venue, they had their Eventing Ireland course up... and we walked round in hand the yard teens had a wee jump round, we did some tiny things in hand, including a couple of little ditches! That worked really well building on the liberty stuff we had been doing at home. But mostly just had a chill day soaking up very busy atmosphere, ate some grass (there is some passive reinforcement for relaxation), had a walk through water, didn't have one real stressy moment all day. I'm absolutely delighted with her!

 

[stangs]

Had a fun little target session with the horse today. We’ve not done much with the target recently as, where it’s been so warm and they’ve been getting supplemented with hay in the field, he’s not been particularly interested in working at liberty for bits of carrot. However, today he had an unusual degree of energy (presumably linked to cooler weather and mare-related drama) so we were able to crack on with trotwork with the target quite quickly. Played around with some transitions between trot and reinback, trot circles, and varying speeds within walk and trot. Everything could be straighter and more polished, but it’s a start.

I also need to learn some spatial awareness. I tried putting the target on his left while I was on his right as a bit of a ‘thinking exercise’ for him, to focus on the target and not my position. He didn’t quite get what I was asking so started backing up, which is his go-to for when he’s confused and wants a treat… Next thing I know he’s been given a very stern telling off for backing up into a mare who does not appreciate horses in her personal space. Did he care? Did he heck. Came right back to the target expecting a reward for all the backing up.

One other thing that came up was that, when we were working on a long and low trot, he started nipping at the target a couple times. I’m not particularly fussed, working on the principle that a bit of controlled frustration to motivate isn’t harmful (à la Intrizen and some dog sport training) and I did make sure to move on to some easy static exercises after he started nipping to give him a break and ‘reset’ his mindset.

However, it is interesting that the nipping was solely in the long and low trot. I'm presuming it reflects him finding long and low trots more difficult to do (although he found them very easy to do in the past, back when he was still ridden) but could it be because a long and low trot is a position more reminscient of snaking, which triggers the nipping?

We hacked to the local XC venue, they had their Eventing Ireland course up... and we walked round in hand the yard teens had a wee jump round, we did some tiny things in hand, including a couple of little ditches! That worked really well building on the liberty stuff we had been doing at home. But mostly just had a chill day soaking up very busy atmosphere, ate some grass (there is some passive reinforcement for relaxation), had a walk through water, didn't have one real stressy moment all day. I'm absolutely delighted with her!

Sounds like a very successful day out. I keep meaning to take my boy XC schooling, just struggle to think what we could do that's not jumping.

 

[smolmaus]

However, it is interesting that the nipping was solely in the long and low trot. I'm presuming it reflects him finding long and low trots more difficult to do (although he found them very easy to do in the past, back when he was still ridden) but could it be because a long and low trot is a position more reminscient of snaking, which triggers the nipping?

That is interesting! I don't think I would have made that connection at all, but certainly sounds plausible.

We did a lot of investigating and just people watching tbh, shes had a very sheltered little life so even doing very little was valuable. We did some water and some small steps and walked over some poles in the warmup. Probably wouldn't have been worth hiring it out just for that tbh but as I was primarily there to keep an eye on yard teens I got away with not paying

 

[Titchy Reindeer]

Hey, can I join in?

I actually used R+ successfully yesterday.

I've tried using R+ from the ground to teach Enormosaurus lateral movements with very limited success. She tends to windsuck if you hand feed her, no idea why: feed her a carrot and she starts windsucking, put it in her bucket, she eats it, no windsucking. She gets over motivated for the pieces of carrot, so I really need to downgrade to celery, and see if there's any improvement. Also, she's so big, I struggle to have an eye on the whole of her to evaluate response and behaviours. Last attempt on the ground only resulted in frustration.

I've been trying to teach Enormosaurus leg yields when ridden and she isn't a fan, especially moving towards the right. I think part of it is the sand school being a bit deep for her liking despite regular watering, so I started practicing on the roads in walk and got a lot less negative behaviours. Anyway, yesterday, I took her to the village green to school. We did 3 walk leg yields to the left and stopped for some grass. 3 leg yields in walk to the right and then some grass. Then a leg yield in trot to the left, some grass. Repeat. One step leg yield to the right in trot, stop, grass. Three steps leg yield to the right in trot, stop, grass. Longer leg yield in trot to the right, stop, grass, home. The best she's ever done, so we'll keep working at it.

My process in this is a bit clunky, though she seems to have the idea. Do exercise, give marker word when appropriate, ask for whoa (I don't want her tripping over her own feet in her haste to get the grass), then give the words that signal she can graze (don't want her ripping my arms out, which wouldn't be pleasant for anyone). Also, random praise words seems to give her an indication that she's on the right track, not sure how useful that is though.

 

[stangs]

I've tried using R+ from the ground to teach Enormosaurus lateral movements with very limited success. She tends to windsuck if you hand feed her, no idea why: feed her a carrot and she starts windsucking, put it in her bucket, she eats it, no windsucking. She gets over motivated for the pieces of carrot, so I really need to downgrade to celery, and see if there's any improvement. Also, she's so big, I struggle to have an eye on the whole of her to evaluate response and behaviours. Last attempt on the ground only resulted in frustration.

Curious, presumably she finds hand feeding particularly stressful, causing the windsucking. It would be interesting to hear if the windsucking from hand feeding continues even when you find a reward that she doesn’t find overarousing (handfuls of her usual hay might work if celery doesn’t, and it would keep her chewing longer).

 

[CloverRover]

Hey everyone, do you have any instructor recommendations up Gloustershire way? I don't really enjoy online coaching with R+ trainers, although, maybe I just haven't found the right one. My pony is FAT, has arthritis in her hocks and did her suspensory last year so positive reinforcement is difficult. But madam has decided bits are disgusting, horrible creatures and her rope halter is more conducive of an outline while pottering around out hacking than her bit is schooling properly so I think its time to jump back on the R+ boat (I rebacked her with R+ and have done all of her ground work this way). Plus I'm moving for Uni and about to start studying Zoology so it seems like the right time!
Thanks for any suggestions!

 

[Titchy Reindeer]

Curious, presumably she finds hand feeding particularly stressful, causing the windsucking. It would be interesting to hear if the windsucking from hand feeding continues even when you find a reward that she doesn’t find overarousing (handfuls of her usual hay might work if celery doesn’t, and it would keep her chewing longer).

She is a strange horse. I've been riding her for nearly 2 years now and still struggle to understand her. She used to windsuck after exercise (not before or during!), when I took her bridle off to put her head collar on and when I put her back in the field. She would do this regardless of if she was ridden, lunged or just ground worked. She very rarely does it these days, which I assume is progress. She windsucks in a stable which is why she's out 27/7 year round with access to shelter and hay. She normally has one or 2 other horses in with her but always has a pony and a donkey in the next field.
She also doesn't windsuck as much if I hand feed from the saddle, still carrots, as when I do it from the ground.

 

[smolmaus]

Hey everyone, do you have any instructor recommendations up Gloustershire way? I don't really enjoy online coaching with R+ trainers, although, maybe I just haven't found the right one. My pony is FAT, has arthritis in her hocks and did her suspensory last year so positive reinforcement is difficult. But madam has decided bits are disgusting, horrible creatures and her rope halter is more conducive of an outline while pottering around out hacking than her bit is schooling properly so I think its time to jump back on the R+ boat (I rebacked her with R+ and have done all of her ground work this way). Plus I'm moving for Uni and about to start studying Zoology so it seems like the right time!
Thanks for any suggestions!

Going to do my usual and suggest looking at the ABTC Register in your area. The only person coming up for Gloucester is Jenni Nellist, she does seem to do R+ Training.

The behaviourist I use is also happy to recommend other practitioners when she doesn't have the time or range to work with people who contact her, hopefully Jenni can do the same!

 

[Pony Partner]

Hi
You could also check out the International Association of Animal Behaviour Consultants: https://iaabc.org/

I wanted to ask a new question, but thought it might get swallowed up if I did a post in the general competing and training forum. I use clicker training and I'm having lots of problems finding a decent treat-carrying option. I don't really like bum bags or across the chest bags. I've tried pouches on a belt, but I find I can't easily and smoothly access the treats from the pouches. I need to have left and right access to make sure I train equally from both sides. The most successful item I've come across so far is a lightweight fishing vest with multiple pockets. The drawback to these is the pocket lining material isn't robust and mine has holes after only 8 weeks. Any ideas/suggestions?

Many thanks.

 

[stangs]

Hi
You could also check out the International Association of Animal Behaviour Consultants: https://iaabc.org/

I wanted to ask a new question, but thought it might get swallowed up if I did a post in the general competing and training forum. I use clicker training and I'm having lots of problems finding a decent treat-carrying option. I don't really like bum bags or across the chest bags. I've tried pouches on a belt, but I find I can't easily and smoothly access the treats from the pouches. I need to have left and right access to make sure I train equally from both sides. The most successful item I've come across so far is a lightweight fishing vest with multiple pockets. The drawback to these is the pocket lining material isn't robust and mine has holes after only 8 weeks. Any ideas/suggestions?

Many thanks.

The easy solution to have left and right access is to have two pouches, one on either side.
Can't help otherwise - I normally just use my pockets because I'm lazy, and because I haven't been able to find the source of the one treat pouch that does make access easy. (In case anyone can help, it's like this but circular instead of flat against your side, which makes it quicker to get treats out of.)

 

[smolmaus]

Hi
You could also check out the International Association of Animal Behaviour Consultants: https://iaabc.org/

I wanted to ask a new question, but thought it might get swallowed up if I did a post in the general competing and training forum. I use clicker training and I'm having lots of problems finding a decent treat-carrying option. I don't really like bum bags or across the chest bags. I've tried pouches on a belt, but I find I can't easily and smoothly access the treats from the pouches. I need to have left and right access to make sure I train equally from both sides. The most successful item I've come across so far is a lightweight fishing vest with multiple pockets. The drawback to these is the pocket lining material isn't robust and mine has holes after only 8 weeks. Any ideas/suggestions?

Many thanks.

I use a thigh bag, or drop leg bag these days. It's a symmetrical one and I don't use the leg strap so I can just swing it round if I need to swap sides.

It's obviously bulky, but carries a hoofpick, my phone, car keys etc as well so does several jobs. And I can swap between lower value and higher value treats with all the pockets.

The easy solution to have left and right access is to have two pouches, one on either side.
Can't help otherwise - I normally just use my pockets because I'm lazy, and because I haven't been able to find the source of the one treat pouch that does make access easy. (In case anyone can help, it's like this but circular instead of flat against your side, which makes it quicker to get treats out of.)

My instructor has one and it has a specific name but I can't remember for the life of me, hoping posting this will remind me to ask her tonight, it is very handy.

I previously used a silicon bag like the one you linked and it did the job nicely, then a pony (not mine) literally chewed it to bits

 

[smolmaus]

I forgot to ask, sorry

But we did get our first little bit of shoulder in in trot today. After 2 misfires when instructor had to be like "she said no, because your whole body collapsed" and "you didn't even ask that time" to be fair to me I was VERY ANXIOUS today and if the pony is allowed a bad anxiety day so am I.

After the second time Sadie planted herself in front of instructor like she was asking her to have a word with me and wouldn't move off again until she came with us to re-set. You ask your horse for communication and sometimes you get "you're doing a bad job"

 

[soloequestrian]

The easy solution to have left and right access is to have two pouches, one on either side.
Can't help otherwise - I normally just use my pockets because I'm lazy, and because I haven't been able to find the source of the one treat pouch that does make access easy. (In case anyone can help, it's like this but circular instead of flat against your side, which makes it quicker to get treats out of.)

I'm interested to know why people want both left and right access? My horse knows a treat is coming after the click and doesn't really mind if it takes a small amount of faff to get said treat out.

 

[soloequestrian]

I think this was touched upon earlier on which brought it to my mind but I haven't reread the whole thread so forgive me if this is a repetition.
I was thinking about the idea of training horses to look away before they get a treat. I haven't done that and my mare isn't pushy about treats. I wonder if in training 'head away' the effect of the reward on whatever earlier behaviour was the reason for giving a reward is lost because the horse learns that the reward is for turning its head away and doesn't factor in the previous behaviour?

 

[stangs]

I'm interested to know why people want both left and right access? My horse knows a treat is coming after the click and doesn't really mind if it takes a small amount of faff to get said treat out.

Faff causes issues if you’re trying to use a high reinforcement rate for engagement purposes, where you really want to be dropping treat after treat, or if you need to be feeding them while they’re still in position. A little bit of faff doesn’t matter if you’re not looking for ultra clean behaviours and the bridge has been well conditioned. However, if you’re working with a puppy for example, you very quickly realise how much they can do, and how much can distract them, in the time it takes you to fish out a treat!

I think this was touched upon earlier on which brought it to my mind but I haven't reread the whole thread so forgive me if this is a repetition.
I was thinking about the idea of training horses to look away before they get a treat. I haven't done that and my mare isn't pushy about treats. I wonder if in training 'head away' the effect of the reward on whatever earlier behaviour was the reason for giving a reward is lost because the horse learns that the reward is for turning its head away and doesn't factor in the previous behaviour?

In the bolded case, I think it's more that the horse thinks it's being rewarded for a behaviour chain of say, lift foot and then turn head away, or the head away simply becomes reflexive because of the historic expectation of treat placement.

Head away was one of my boy's first behaviours and I am glad I did it, because now, if he ever gets a little too fixated on my hands, we just do a few reps of head away and it reminds him to be a bit more polite. But we do a very slight head turn away. I’m not a huge fan of the head aways people train when the treat placement means the horse has to flex their head very tightly away, because I don’t want them putting their neck in that position whenever they expect a treat. Although if it works for Ben Atkinson…

Tbh I think head away is less important for training the animal and more important for training the owner to maintain a little distance between their body and the treat.

Good questions though - I'm interested to see what other people think.

 

[smolmaus]

Tbh I think head away is less important for training the animal and more important for training the owner to maintain a little distance between their body and the treat.

Good questions though - I'm interested to see what other people think.

Think i agree. I also think head away just builds you a little buffer if you have a horse that gets over stimulated easily. Its one of those things that are probably good practise, even if not everybody needs it. I do head straight/neutral myself, and our instructor also doesn't ask for head away. Since I'm usually by the shoulder it functions similarly tbh, you can't curl round and push into me, you have to put your head back on straight.

 

[HaplessHorse]

Just had an excellent lesson with my trainer, using double reins is an absolute revelation for cob. It changed her way of going completely, and it’s shown me that she’s not actually that strong, I only need to use the bottom rein occasionally. With her, it’s really all about making sure she’s balanced and using my seat.

As her balance improves, she’s leaning on the bit less and becoming more sensitive to the aids from the bit. I never realised just how much of an impact balance could have

 

[Matafleur]

It's great to see a positive reinforcement thread running in here! I mix a fair bit of clicker in with my traditional dressage training. It's what I go back to whenever I feel my horse is struggling with understanding. It's the reason he thinks piaffe is the best and easiest thing ever (trit trot on the spot and get treats?! Winner!) and I'm currently giving it a go with my changes as this has been a real struggle. I'm not sure if it will work (on day 2 atm) but I'm not enjoying training them the "proper" way so thought I'd try this.

What does everyone use when they want a really high value treat? I use Coligone treats as my usual and I've been using polo's as an occasional high value. Any other suggestions?

 

[daffy44]

It's great to see a positive reinforcement thread running in here! I mix a fair bit of clicker in with my traditional dressage training. It's what I go back to whenever I feel my horse is struggling with understanding. It's the reason he thinks piaffe is the best and easiest thing ever (trit trot on the spot and get treats?! Winner!) and I'm currently giving it a go with my changes as this has been a real struggle. I'm not sure if it will work (on day 2 atm) but I'm not enjoying training them the "proper" way so thought I'd try this.

What does everyone use when they want a really high value treat? I use Coligone treats as my usual and I've been using polo's as an occasional high value. Any other suggestions?

I'm intrigued, please can I ask how you use clicker training for flying changes? I dont so clicker training, just a fair bit of groundwork, for example, I teach all my lateral work from the ground first, but I'd love to know how you use clickers for changes.

 

[Matafleur]

I'm intrigued, please can I ask how you use clicker training for flying changes? I dont so clicker training, just a fair bit of groundwork, for example, I teach all my lateral work from the ground first, but I'd love to know how you use clickers for changes.

Eurgh, well, it's not training from scratch using the clicker, I have a very flexible mix and match approach!! I'm really only using it to mark the right thing, the rest is more traditional.

But we have started training them conventionally, excellent simple changes, hot off the leg etc. But he gets very stressed training them and I get lots of leaping forward out of my hand and seat. It was making both of us miserable and I felt he didn't really understand what I wanted, the bigger aid was just making him throw himself and maybe (or maybe not) he'd end up changing as a by product.

All I'm really focused on at the moment is him changing calmly from one leg to the other. If they are late I don't really care, I'll sort it out later. My trainer would be very anti this btw. I'm not advising anyone do this! But we have had many struggles along the way and if he never changes or changes late, it makes no real difference to me.

We also do working equitation and I'm using the 2 barrels exercise from that to help. He is used to the simple change in the middle of it in the EOH phase but in the speed I just turn him and he changes, usually slightly late but again, he has an idea. So I work round the barrels, figure of 8, changing the rein through a simple change in the middle. Then, when he is hot and sharp, I do everything I can to set him up for a clean change and then ask where he would be expecting to change the rein. Then I just click as he changes. He stops immediately (as he lands from the change) but that doesn't matter to me, I want him to know that the suspension and change is what I wanted, nothing else matters. If he ever becomes completely reliable to the aid, then I will start to straighten the line through the barrels more and more until he doesn't need them. Then I'll phase out the clicker so he just lands from the change and keeps cantering.

Again, I am not a dressage rider, he is not a dressage horse and if I ruin the changes forever, it doesn't matter. But we have been trying for a year now and I wanted just to try something different and see if helps. It has helped us with lots of other training problems along the way and i feel it really helps his brain. His default is to run off, even now, but working with the clicker eradicates that entirely. It is not a quick process though, and it's entirely possible I will train in a late change that I can't undo.

If you (as I know you are, daffy), are capable of training the changes the classical/traditional way then I think it is quicker, and better, to do it that way tbh. But for me and my horse, right now, the clarity of the clicker is helpful.

 

[daffy44]

Eurgh, well, it's not training from scratch using the clicker, I have a very flexible mix and match approach!! I'm really only using it to mark the right thing, the rest is more traditional.

But we have started training them conventionally, excellent simple changes, hot off the leg etc. But he gets very stressed training them and I get lots of leaping forward out of my hand and seat. It was making both of us miserable and I felt he didn't really understand what I wanted, the bigger aid was just making him throw himself and maybe (or maybe not) he'd end up changing as a by product.

All I'm really focused on at the moment is him changing calmly from one leg to the other. If they are late I don't really care, I'll sort it out later. My trainer would be very anti this btw. I'm not advising anyone do this! But we have had many struggles along the way and if he never changes or changes late, it makes no real difference to me.

We also do working equitation and I'm using the 2 barrels exercise from that to help. He is used to the simple change in the middle of it in the EOH phase but in the speed I just turn him and he changes, usually slightly late but again, he has an idea. So I work round the barrels, figure of 8, changing the rein through a simple change in the middle. Then, when he is hot and sharp, I do everything I can to set him up for a clean change and then ask where he would be expecting to change the rein. Then I just click as he changes. He stops immediately (as he lands from the change) but that doesn't matter to me, I want him to know that the suspension and change is what I wanted, nothing else matters. If he ever becomes completely reliable to the aid, then I will start to straighten the line through the barrels more and more until he doesn't need them. Then I'll phase out the clicker so he just lands from the change and keeps cantering.

Again, I am not a dressage rider, he is not a dressage horse and if I ruin the changes forever, it doesn't matter. But we have been trying for a year now and I wanted just to try something different and see if helps. It has helped us with lots of other training problems along the way and i feel it really helps his brain. His default is to run off, even now, but working with the clicker eradicates that entirely. It is not a quick process though, and it's entirely possible I will train in a late change that I can't undo.

If you (as I know you are, daffy), are capable of training the changes the classical/traditional way then I think it is quicker, and better, to do it that way tbh. But for me and my horse, right now, the clarity of the clicker is helpful.

Thank you so much for taking time to explain, I understand what and why you are trying to do and I love the willingness to experiment. I do teach changes in a more traditional way, but I think its so important to keep an open mind when it comes to training, not every horse has read the book! I think changes in particular do really depend a lot on the natural ability of the horse, some find them effortless, some really get in a state at the mere suggestion of doing it. So its always good to explore different ways of doing things, twenty years ago it simply wouldnt have occurred to me to teach lateral work from the ground, now I wouldnt do it any other way, likewise I hadnt heard of groundwork for posture and balance, now I love it, so I'm always curious, thank you so much for explaining your process.

 

[smolmaus]

Thanks from me as well for the explanation Matafleur! I'll probably never get to the point of teaching changes lol but have had SUCH success with teaching relaxation and self-carriage. Being able to pinpoint the exact moment where they offer what you want has been so valuable.

I am using the minty NAF treats for BIG well done atm. I think just the variation of being something rarer increases the value.

Our update is that our instructor has offered us a lift to her in hand clinic on Saturday! I have been to a couple of them (clicker training and liberty work) but now I finally get to show off my perfect little pony! ❤

 

[Matafleur]

I think the lovely thing about the clicker is it sets up such positive associations for our interactions. A few years ago I taught mine to put his head down and into wherever his headcollar was held, just so my small child could catch him. Now I just click him every time for putting his own headcollar on and we've already had a nice moment before we've started work, same with putting his bridle on, I just hold the reins out and he puts his head in, same when holding the bit for him. I use a verbal "cluck" and always have treats in my pocket and I enjoy that he enjoys these little interactions.

I was also able to teach him really good posture on the lunge (no more giraffe neck!) which means I don't need gadgets which saves me time - almost everything I do is aimed at making my life easier I'm afraid!

 

[daffy44]

I think the lovely thing about the clicker is it sets up such positive associations for our interactions. A few years ago I taught mine to put his head down and into wherever his headcollar was held, just so my small child could catch him. Now I just click him every time for putting his own headcollar on and we've already had a nice moment before we've started work, same with putting his bridle on, I just hold the reins out and he puts his head in, same when holding the bit for him. I use a verbal "cluck" and always have treats in my pocket and I enjoy that he enjoys these little interactions.

I was also able to teach him really good posture on the lunge (no more giraffe neck!) which means I don't need gadgets which saves me time - almost everything I do is aimed at making my life easier I'm afraid!

Nothing wrong with that! Life is hard enough, why make it worse...

I think I do some similar things, but not aligned to a clicker, if I make a verbal click its asking for forward movement, so I think I'd totally confuse my horses by changing that now. But I'm very much in favour of an easy life and setting up positive associations for the horse and finding ways to make the work as fun as possible.

 

[Matafleur]

Thank you so much for taking time to explain, I understand what and why you are trying to do and I love the willingness to experiment. I do teach changes in a more traditional way, but I think its so important to keep an open mind when it comes to training, not every horse has read the book! I think changes in particular do really depend a lot on the natural ability of the horse, some find them effortless, some really get in a state at the mere suggestion of doing it. So its always good to explore different ways of doing things, twenty years ago it simply wouldnt have occurred to me to teach lateral work from the ground, now I wouldnt do it any other way, likewise I hadnt heard of groundwork for posture and balance, now I love it, so I'm always curious, thank you so much for explaining your process.

Thanks so much for not telling me I will ruin my horse forever by doing it this way . I train with a very good trainer and I know that she would be able to teach him, but it would still take several months and her timing is far, far better than mine will ever be.

I find using the clicker means that he tries hard to find the right answer and is more likely to help when I, inevitably, get it a bit wrong. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't, but I don't have anything to lose as my current changes are unreliable and often late. Fingers crossed for getting into that tailcoat eventually

 

[Matafleur]

Nothing wrong with that! Life is hard enough, why make it worse...

I think I do some similar things, but not aligned to a clicker, if I make a verbal click its asking for forward movement, so I think I'd totally confuse my horses by changing that now. But I'm very much in favour of an easy life and setting up positive associations for the horse and finding ways to make the work as fun as possible.

I use the normal click all the time. My clicker click is a different sound, a sort of softer cluck with the front of the tongue rather than the sharper back of the tongue click. He absolutely knows the difference as he slams to a halt immediately to get fed . Aren't horses amazing?!

The piaffe trainer I sometimes go to uses yet another cluck/click sound and he's figured that one out too!

 

[daffy44]

I use the normal click all the time. My clicker click is a different sound, a sort of softer cluck with the front of the tongue rather than the sharper back of the tongue click. He absolutely knows the difference as he slams to a halt immediately to get fed . Aren't horses amazing?!

The piaffe trainer I sometimes go to uses yet another cluck/click sound and he's figured that one out too!

Thats really clever! I'm now sitting here seeing how many different click sounds I can make.....

I certainly dont think you'll ruin the changes by trying different things, as you said, you dont have them now, so why not try something different, I have no idea whether it'll work or not, but its always worth a try, changes can be tricky. I had two mares at the same time, one was angelic, tried so hard to get things right and had a wonderful canter, the other one was very opinionated, average canter and no interest in pleasing anyone but herself. The first mare took two years to get a clean reliable change each way anywhere, the second mare took less than a week.