The positive reinforcement and clicker training thread

[Matafleur]

Thats really clever! I'm now sitting here seeing how many different click sounds I can make.....

I certainly dont think you'll ruin the changes by trying different things, as you said, you dont have them now, so why not try something different, I have no idea whether it'll work or not, but its always worth a try, changes can be tricky. I had two mares at the same time, one was angelic, tried so hard to get things right and had a wonderful canter, the other one was very opinionated, average canter and no interest in pleasing anyone but herself. The first mare took two years to get a clean reliable change each way anywhere, the second mare took less than a week.

That's interesting to hear, we initially thought the changes would be quite easy but I think my own lack of experience and his reactions haven't helped us. I heartened that even with your experience it took some time with one of yours.

I'm enjoying the journey and I have a horse that can piaffe and pirouette quite nicely, if nothing else it has been fun learning together.

I was also clicking away at my my desk, the dog was very confused .

 

[stangs]

@Matafleur super interesting, thanks for sharing. I would think that, of all dressage movements, flying changes are probably the ones that benefit most from being trained with clicker training, as they seem to be the ones where timing is most important in training.

Thats really clever! I'm now sitting here seeing how many different click sounds I can make.....

There are five different types of basic clicks used contrastively in human language, so you should be able to make quite a few.

Normally, with horses, people use alveolar or alveolar lateral clicks (so clicking with the tip of your tongue behind the ridge at the top of your mouth), or dental clicks (kissing your teeth), so ime palato-alveolar clicks (tip of the tongue as far back as you can get it really) are the most distinctive for vocal clicks.

Our update is that our instructor has offered us a lift to her in hand clinic on Saturday! I have been to a couple of them (clicker training and liberty work) but now I finally get to show off my perfect little pony! ❤

Looking forward to hearing about it!

 

[daffy44]

That's interesting to hear, we initially thought the changes would be quite easy but I think my own lack of experience and his reactions haven't helped us. I heartened that even with your experience it took some time with one of yours.

I'm enjoying the journey and I have a horse that can piaffe and pirouette quite nicely, if nothing else it has been fun learning together.

I was also clicking away at my my desk, the dog was very confused .

I had less experience then, and certainly made a few mistakes, but they were just not that natural for that horse, I never saw her do a clean one in the field, so even if I had her now it still wouldnt be easy. But she got to GP, so we got there in the end.

 

[Gropony]

I am very new to any reward based training (as in clicker or giving food) and have a question. Usually I only do discrete movements and I reward the movement. Today we were doing pole work, trotting over four poles. I praised once we had passed the poles (mainly because I was running and concentrating on not falling on my face). Then I gave the reward once we had stopped.

The next time he walloped all the poles and made no effort whatsoever to go over properly (the first time was lovely). It is true that once he has decided that he has done well he does tend to squash cones or knock poles as a way of saying he is done I think.

My question is about timing. For something like this, should I praise as we are going over? Because when I praised after we passed I saw that he was thinking about what he was being praised for.

I find the timing very difficult tbh.

 

[stangs]

I am very new to any reward based training (as in clicker or giving food) and have a question. Usually I only do discrete movements and I reward the movement. Today we were doing pole work, trotting over four poles. I praised once we had passed the poles (mainly because I was running and concentrating on not falling on my face). Then I gave the reward once we had stopped.

The next time he walloped all the poles and made no effort whatsoever to go over properly (the first time was lovely). It is true that once he has decided that he has done well he does tend to squash cones or knock poles as a way of saying he is done I think.

My question is about timing. For something like this, should I praise as we are going over? Because when I praised after we passed I saw that he was thinking about what he was being praised for.

I find the timing very difficult tbh.

So there's two parts to this:

Firstly, why is he knocking them over? Is it

1. Because he's getting over-aroused by the food so he's no longer thinking about what his feet are doing? (Which would mean you need to reconsider your type and frequency of reinforcement.)
2. Because he thinks the behaviour you're asking for is "follow me no matter what you have to go over" instead of "don't touch the poles", which means the first time he looks where he's going, and the second time he's not so careful, and so starts knocking things over?
3. Because you've somehow been reinforcing knocking poles/squashing cones? (E.g., maybe he's learnt that if he's bored of an exercise, knocking things over means you'll do something else with him.)
4. Because he's getting mentally fatigued? (Which would mean you need to cut your sessions shorter).

The reason behind it will affect how you change the behaviour.

Secondly, re timing, if I were training a horse to go over poles, I would follow a system something like this.

[C+R = click and reward).

1. Horse takes one step over the pole. As the first leg comes over (i.e. as the behaviour is happening, not once the step is already complete, because that would mean I'm rewarding for stopping), I C+R.
2. Horse takes two steps over the pole. As second leg comes over, I C+R.
3. Horse steps over pole with all four legs. As the final leg comes over, I C+R.
4. Once I am sure the horse knows the behaviour (walk over a pole without touching it) and is reliable in doing it (so I can trust him to walk over the pole 4 out of 5 times without touching it), I introduce a second pole. This time, I wait a little longer and C+R the second the horse looks like they're going to keep going over the second pole.
5. I shape going over the second pole like I did them going over the first pole. Then, again, once they're going over the two poles reasonably reliably (4 out of 5 times minimum), I add a third pole. And so on.
6. Eventually, I get to a position where the horse walks over four poles, and as their last leg is going over the final pole cleanly, I C+R.

The idea with this process is that the horse learns that the behaviour you want is going over the poles cleanly. Once that behaviour is established, you can then increase your expectations, and click after the second pole is complete, the fourth pole is complete, etc.

I click when the behaviour I want is being completed - and my criteria for that behaviour, in this case, has changed over time from walk over one pole to walk over four poles.


N.B. The other thing to consider would be rewards. If he's getting paid the same amount for not putting any effort in (i.e. if he gets the same treat amount for walking over the poles perfectly as he does for knocking them all over), then there's no incentive for him to put the effort in.

However if he doesn't know that the behaviour you want is going over the poles without knocking them, then 'punishing' him (for lack of a better word) for knocking them will just make him frustrated. So don't remove any rewards right now, but maybe give him a jackpot once in a while if he does the poles super cleanly.

Hope this makes some sense!

 

[Gropony]

So there's two parts to this:

Firstly, why is he knocking them over? Is it

1. Because he's getting over-aroused by the food so he's no longer thinking about what his feet are doing? (Which would mean you need to reconsider your type and frequency of reinforcement.)
2. Because he thinks the behaviour you're asking for is "follow me no matter what you have to go over" instead of "don't touch the poles", which means the first time he looks where he's going, and the second time he's not so careful, and so starts knocking things over?
3. Because you've somehow been reinforcing knocking poles/squashing cones? (E.g., maybe he's learnt that if he's bored of an exercise, knocking things over means you'll do something else with him.)
4. Because he's getting mentally fatigued? (Which would mean you need to cut your sessions shorter).

The reason behind it will affect how you change the behaviour.

Secondly, re timing, if I were training a horse to go over poles, I would follow a system something like this.

[C+R = click and reward).

1. Horse takes one step over the pole. As the first leg comes over (i.e. as the behaviour is happening, not once the step is already complete, because that would mean I'm rewarding for stopping), I C+R.
2. Horse takes two steps over the pole. As second leg comes over, I C+R.
3. Horse steps over pole with all four legs. As the final leg comes over, I C+R.
4. Once I am sure the horse knows the behaviour (walk over a pole without touching it) and is reliable in doing it (so I can trust him to walk over the pole 4 out of 5 times without touching it), I introduce a second pole. This time, I wait a little longer and C+R the second the horse looks like they're going to keep going over the second pole.
5. I shape going over the second pole like I did them going over the first pole. Then, again, once they're going over the two poles reasonably reliably (4 out of 5 times minimum), I add a third pole. And so on.
6. Eventually, I get to a position where the horse walks over four poles, and as their last leg is going over the final pole cleanly, I C+R.

The idea with this process is that the horse learns that the behaviour you want is going over the poles cleanly. Once that behaviour is established, you can then increase your expectations, and click after the second pole is complete, the fourth pole is complete, etc.

I click when the behaviour I want is being completed - and my criteria for that behaviour, in this case, has changed over time from walk over one pole to walk over four poles.


N.B. The other thing to consider would be rewards. If he's getting paid the same amount for not putting any effort in (i.e. if he gets the same treat amount for walking over the poles perfectly as he does for knocking them all over), then there's no incentive for him to put the effort in.

However if he doesn't know that the behaviour you want is going over the poles without knocking them, then 'punishing' him (for lack of a better word) for knocking them will just make him frustrated. So don't remove any rewards right now, but maybe give him a jackpot once in a while if he does the poles super cleanly.

Hope this makes some sense!

This is super helpful. Thank you. I did stop trying to go over all four and get him to step two front feet over, stop, praise, next pole, stop praise etc. He didn't touch anything. However I see now from your answer that I should have praised the step. I think the tapping poles and cones is something he learnt when he was in the riding stables before. When he did it, he was allowed to stop the exercise. Sometimes he genuinely does it because he is tired but sometimes he does it straight away if it is something he doesn't prefer.

He is, however, generally very aroused by food, which is why I have avoided this type of training before. And I never have food ion me or in the arena if he is working in liberty.

Very interesting points. It helps to think about the why.

 

[smolmaus]

And I never have food ion me or in the arena if he is working in liberty.

Our trainer actually recommends having hay available at liberty when training. They can go and self regulate with a snack and will be less likely to be overwhelmed by rewards if they have free access to alternative food sources.

It's not a very practical suggestion, which I have said to her in the past, not many yard owners want hay in the arena!! but you can do a bit in the stable with hay available while you figure out what rewards are just a tiny bit better than normal hay which is the perfect level for training with. You want interested but not excited. Also why it's important not to train a hungry horse with food, they simply can't focus on learning if they're hungry.

 

[Gropony]

Our trainer actually recommends having hay available at liberty when training. They can go and self regulate with a snack and will be less likely to be overwhelmed by rewards if they have free access to alternative food sources.

It's not a very practical suggestion, which I have said to her in the past, not many yard owners want hay in the arena!! but you can do a bit in the stable with hay available while you figure out what rewards are just a tiny bit better than normal hay which is the perfect level for training with. You want interested but not excited. Also why it's important not to train a hungry horse with food, they simply can't focus on learning if they're hungry.

I have seen this suggestion before but it is not practical in a shared arena. Good point about testing in the stable though.

Frankly, he is always "hungry" even when he has unlimited food. Apparently when the riding stable got him at 2.5 years old he was very, very thin. So I think at some point he didn't have access to food and he struggles to regulate himself. He eats in general like he might never eat again in his life. Even grazing is military style and he eats every last wisp of hay they put out in the field. The others get bored at a point and go and eat grass. At least there is zero waste! I have to be very careful with grazing etc because he gets fat extremely quickly. Hence I struggle using food.

 

[smolmaus]

I have seen this suggestion before but it is not practical in a shared arena. Good point about testing in the stable though.

Frankly, he is always "hungry" even when he has unlimited food. Apparently when the riding stable got him at 2.5 years old he was very, very thin. So I think at some point he didn't have access to food and he struggles to regulate himself. He eats in general like he might never eat again in his life. Even grazing is military style and he eats every last wisp of hay they put out in the field. The others get bored at a point and go and eat grass. At least there is zero waste! I have to be very careful with grazing etc because he gets fat extremely quickly. Hence I struggle using food.

Ah okay, that's very understandable then. Poor boy! You can try just using hay if you get creative with a larger treat bag and a pair of scissors, or use very plain no-molasses chaff maybe. But if he would be calmer without food you don't have to use it, you can use scratches instead with the clicker and keep everything else the same. If doing that I would definitely swap to a different click or bridge signal to avoid him feeling like he has earned food and isn't getting it and therefore being more frustrated, but it's an option if lower value rewards are still too much for him.

You're obviously doing a great job listening to him, so don't feel penned in by what you feel like you "should" be doing, you can just do what works best for him.

 

[stangs]

He is, however, generally very aroused by food, which is why I have avoided this type of training before. And I never have food ion me or in the arena if he is working in liberty.

Quick note on this: novelty increases the dopamine spike gained from a reinforcer. If you eat pizza every day, you don't care that much about pizza; if your boss randomly buys everyone pizzas every once in a while, you start feeling very excited about the pizza. If a horse doesn't often get treated, then when their owner does work with food, it's going to be that much more arousing.

If you want to decrease his arousal rate around food, pick one low-ish value reinforcer (hay, chop, cucumber, carrot - low sugar both to keep his arousal and weight down) and reward him a lot with the same reinforcer, until it's so predictable it starts getting a little boring.

And you can also capture calm behaviours around food: not getting in your space, pausing when grazing, etc to try encourage a healthier mindset around food in him.

(Having said that, my boy's also a seriously good doer - he's even fat in the foal photos I have of him - so you have my sympathy when it comes to navigating wanting to train with food whilst not wanting the horse to balloon!)

 

[Matafleur]

I thought I'd do a little update to try and wake this thread up again, even though it's a bit of a sad update .

So after 2 weeks of using the clicker for our changes, the leaping was eradicated almost entirely which was great progress so far as I was concerned! Instead of leaping forward and throwing me around as soon as I started to prepare, he was actually listening and waiting for what I wanted. A tell tale sign was that his ears were slightly back and sideways the while time, instead of rammed forward to the horizon .

We were getting a change more consistently when I asked and the good one was almost always clean, the bad one was probably 50/50 clean/late. That was an improvement from before, I think because he was allowing me to set him up more effectively.

However, he was slightly off when we were at a show, on the same hind leg he is always weak on. He had 10 days off and some physio while we were waiting for a vet appointment. He was all but sound for the vet but I showed him the video from before the rest and he agreed he looked quite off. So we medicated the hock and the SI and the vet said we should be good to go again. However I had a real either over whether that was really the best thing for him. The collection is hard for him, even though he keeps trying for you, and I didn't want to break him down entirely.

So I've now loaned to him to someone I know, 5 minutes away, where he'll be a mother daughter share, doing some low level jumping, hacking, novice dressage etc. Much less stress for his body. I am very sad and feel I've probably missed my chance to put a tailcoat on but I do think this is best for him.

In happier news, I am having a young horse vetted on Friday so she passes! And then, back to the beginning again .

 

[smolmaus]

Oh Matafleur I'm sorry, that is sad but what a good lad to keep trying for you even when he wasn't right. I hope his new people appreciate him as much as you do

All fingers crossed here for new adventures!!!

 

[Sussexbythesea]

I’ve been doing a lot of R+ training / connection training with my youngster and it has turned him around. Still use pressure and release as needed and tbh I’m not that competent to always understand the difference instantly.

He’s been very difficult to train. When I bought him he seemed straight-forward but within a couple of weeks had become really difficult to handle on the ground. Bringing in was a nightmare of rearing, leaping in the air and pulling away. Trying to do any groundwork was similar, he would just suddenly rip the rope out of my hand and F off. No matter what combo I tried him in I couldn’t hang on. I tried TRT but he’d just bugger off when he felt like it. He was acting like a rhino, breaking everything I tied him to.

Initial instructor said I should sell but it was December so I didn’t. I then had a session with Jason Webb whom he dragged down the arena and kicked. He did not respond well to having a rope flicked in his face to back off. He absolutely did not want to give in. Found JW to be arrogant, impatient and would not personally recommend.

Treated for ulcers, then had colic surgery. Got a Richard Maxwell training halter which really did help as at least I could hang on if needed. Then I started training with Tracey Duncan and that has turned him around. We started with liberty and that really changed him as he had nothing to fight against. During this yard closed down and have.moved yards twice since which hasn’t helped.

He’s now 7 and perfect to take in and out, ties up well, I can lead him out safely and I’ve recently started riding him, started re-backing in about June and now hacking out nicely in company. I still have to watch him if I were to try lunging and I rope off the arena for this.

One issue I have is that rewards can over-stimulate him and he drops his willy all the time. I have read about it and apparently you can accidentally reward the drop in R+ training so they do it more often. He is also enormous so it’s like there are 3 of us in this relationship .

 

[smolmaus]

I will always always have mares

 

[smolmaus]

On the topic of R+ plus pressure-release and thinking about the recent discussion in the CDJ thread, we had a lesson last night and it wasn't a successful one by any means but it was chock full of learning. I'll link my other post here too

But we ended up using a true mix of methods at various points. Or did we? Who knows, it was chaos and every woman for herself. Known cues needed reinforced more frequently as Sadie was cold and full of vim and vigour and wanted to do fun, fast things when I wanted quiet learning things. A purely positive person might have given her what she wanted but the idea of the session was to prep for the vet coming next week and her needing to be lunged reliably and it might be cold next week too!

I did use additional body language "pressure" to make sure we got the "stand" we wanted; so is that R+ and just clearer communication, is it pressure-release, or is it actually negative reinforcement as pony expected a click and reward and didn't get one as we wanted a better quality of response? There was some frustration, so maybe; not getting a good girl when she thinks she has done the right thing is definitely aversive! We decided to use the lunge whip to encourage distance (more for me, as I am as stuck to her shoulder as she is to mine) The presence of the whip was not aversive in any way (we did check, she thought it was a target so it ended up in her mouth at one point) so it could be used purely as a tool for a cue and an arm extension. Is that pressure if it isn't aversive? Poking her in the shoulder with it isn't aversive either so it can't be pressure to be released if it is fully ignored! In short - completely useless unless I teach moving away from it from scratch, and I might as well teach that without the whip or make the whip aversive which I won't do.

The real lesson is that I have exceptionally good "come here" body language which is unhelpful and tbh I already knew that but need to work harder on fixing it, have reinforced going over poles too much through the god knows how many months of in hand polework so reverse round pen was a stupid idea in the first place and that Sadie is possibly smarter than both me and instructor put together. It was frustrating, but in a very funny way. Another lesson I think is that since escalating pressure isn't an option when you don't get what you want, it also means that escalating the frustration isn't an option. The focus was always on "how do we set this up better" or "how do we make this clearer and easier" and not "how do I make the horse respond better" so the humans are thinking differently and more positively. Anyway, this was just a big rambling word vomit but I had a very fun, terrible lesson and I have no desire to ever train any other way

 

[paddy555]

I thought of R+ last night when this link came up on FB. I am not familiar with this trainer and I watched it as I really fancied the horse , thought he was fabulous.

it appears to be a 3yo big heavy horse that has been allowed to get out of control. He trained it using pressure and release or at least that is how I saw it. . I have no idea how one would train or at least correct this horse's behaviour using R+. reward, clicker etc and stay safe. It was interesting, although rather long, studying the trainer in detail.

 

[NR88]

There is so much to dislike about this video, in my opinion. I am not a follower of R+ and have no bias in that direction.

"I'm trying to save this horse's life" is eerily similar to Heath Ryan and the showing producer, PH, from the thread & video on here.

There are much better ways and much better trainers. That trainer puts himself in very wrong, and dangerous, positions. That is not what good trainers do. Certainly not who I would entrust with training a horse, or use as an example as a better alternative to R+.

 

[Matafleur]

I find it weird that people are always so keen to dig at R+. It's just another tool in the box, surely that's a good thing?

No-one (at least on this thread) has suggested that people only train with R+, or even that they, themselves are only training with R+. It's great in lots of situations, sometimes it may not be the best or appropriate method. It's just another skill to draw on.

Ironic that in the current climate we are happier to endorse a pretty physical approach to training but dismiss a kinder way. And I mostly train dressage, ride in Spurs and with a schooling whip, I just think there are many roads to Rome and plenty of things to see along the way.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

I thought of R+ last night when this link came up on FB. I am not familiar with this trainer and I watched it as I really fancied the horse , thought he was fabulous.

it appears to be a 3yo big heavy horse that has been allowed to get out of control. He trained it using pressure and release or at least that is how I saw it. . I have no idea how one would train or at least correct this horse's behaviour using R+. reward, clicker etc and stay safe. It was interesting, although rather long, studying the trainer in detail.

Mine was similar in some ways and it’s worked for him although I’d say it wasn’t R+ alone. He’s very dominant and was like a bulldozer and didn’t respect my space. If you tried to force him back he would not back down. He really responds to praise and really listening to him. I didn’t really start changing our relationship until I changed the approach.

 

[stangs]

@Matafleur, sorry to hear about your boy but I look forward to hearing about the prospective newbie!

One issue I have is that rewards can over-stimulate him and he drops his willy all the time. I have read about it and apparently you can accidentally reward the drop in R+ training so they do it more often. He is also enormous so it’s like there are 3 of us in this relationship .

My boy drops a lot as well, but he also gets a hard-on for scratches or being allowed to hand-graze on good grazing (at the same spot we graze every single week), so at this point I've given up on thinking about changing it. After all, who am I to judge how he expresses himself...

The real lesson is that I have exceptionally good "come here" body language which is unhelpful and tbh I already knew that but need to work harder on fixing it

Better than having "go away" body language?

I feel like there's a lot of interesting work that could be done on how human behaviour and horse behaviour interface and tell each other the wrong thing by accident.

At the yard the other day, one of my boy's herdmates decided to follow me around, walking right behind me. Now this is a horse I do not trust in the slightest, because there are genuine behavioural issues there, and she will not tolerate it if you try to send her away from you, so I'm turning my head every few strides to see what she's doing for my own safety.

Of course, in horse language, me looking back at her occasionally and then continuing to walk forward is saying "please follow me". So, while I was worrying, she was probably thinking we were having a great time walking together.

I thought of R+ last night when this link came up on FB. I am not familiar with this trainer and I watched it as I really fancied the horse , thought he was fabulous.

it appears to be a 3yo big heavy horse that has been allowed to get out of control. He trained it using pressure and release or at least that is how I saw it. . I have no idea how one would train or at least correct this horse's behaviour using R+. reward, clicker etc and stay safe. It was interesting, although rather long, studying the trainer in detail.

NR88 and Matafleur have said it better than I could, but a few more thoughts:

Sussexbythesea's post clearly demonstrates that you can address dangerous behaviour through R+. My boy's not particularly difficult, but, when I got him, he would ram through you to get away if you tried to touch his mouth. Now, thanks to R+, I can walk up to him in the field, grab his head, check his teeth, and he will stand there quite happily and tolerate it.

I've not watched the video, just the beginning, but things that a R+ trainer might look into include: reinforcement of alternative/incompatible behaviours (e.g., a horse can't nip you when you put their headcollar on, if you reward them to put their nose through it themselves) or target training (give a horse markers to focus on and stop at, to try to break the behaviour pattern of running towards home).

A horse like this could actually be a particularly good candidate for R+. You have an animal that's gotten used to fighting pressure and winning - so, if you remove pressure, you've got a clean(er) slate to work with. The animal's got a different mindset, and correspondingly you don't need to start fighting them to stay safe.

A lot of pressure-based trainers face dangerous situations because they've set the horse up to fail. They don't aim for small wins, shaping the behaviour slowly. They just want to win the war, so they ask too much of the horse straight away, put the horse in a position where it's going to fight back, and then justify their escalating methods because the horse's behaviour is now dangerous.

The other thing is that Steve never really talks about what's causing the behaviour (separation anxiety, frustration, hormones, poor management, etc), presumably because he's paid by people that want quick fixes. However, a good trainer decides what method they're going to use based on what's causing the behaviour - especially in the case of R+, because that affects what reinforcement you'll use and how effective it'll be. An R+ trainer might decide that, in this horse's case, ditch the food rewards and use the Premack principle 'to reward' instead.

 

[paddy555]

to my mind this is a young and very strong horse who has a total and utter lack of respect for people, couldn't care less if he is in their space. I don't want to put blame on anyone but for me I would look at it that he has been allowed to get away with whatever he likes especially based on his strength. Realising there were no consequences he basically just took over. I suspect that if someone, possibly female, went into his stable with lots of treats, a grooming brush and wanted to stroke and scratch him he would put up with it for food. It wouldn't of course be safe for her but he would tolerate it for what he could get. He's not nasty in any way he has just been totally allowed to do as he wants. He sees the girl's fear and has no respect for it.
Do other people read him that way? leaving aside whatever anyone has done with their own horses if you were given this particular horse how would you go about it, not in general but your actual movements. I would like to see how people would deal with it safely without using pressure and release based on the exact facilities this trainer had.

A horse like this could actually be a particularly good candidate for R+. You have an animal that's gotten used to fighting pressure and winning - so, if you remove pressure, you've got a clean(er) slate to work with. The animal's got a different mindset, and correspondingly you don't need to start fighting them to stay safe.

A lot of pressure-based trainers face dangerous situations because they've set the horse up to fail. They don't aim for small wins, shaping the behaviour slowly. They just want to win the war, so they ask too much of the horse straight away, put the horse in a position where it's going to fight back, and then justify their escalating methods because the horse's behaviour is now dangerous.

especially interested that you think this is a good candidate for R +, I don't see he has got used to fighting pressure and winning but that he has learnt through lack of early training'discipline that his handler has no personal space. He has in fact been taught (or at least he has taught himself) by poor handling to walk over people.

This pressure based trainer didn't set the horse up to fail, in this case the owner did that. The trainer just ended up with the problem.

It would be interesting to hear all methods of dealing with him or even how people read him.

 

[smolmaus]

I find it weird that people are always so keen to dig at R+. It's just another tool in the box, surely that's a good thing?

Its interesting. Especially since 99% of people use verbal praise and pats (conversation about whether pats are actually rewarding or not notwithstanding) which are R+ but when you decide to use food people lose their minds. If a pat works, why wouldn't food work? If you think pats don't work, why do you use them? I think a lot of it is just lack of knowledge. I started out wanting to learn and I still had a lot of misconceptions that needed education from a qualified pro.

The other thing is that Steve never really talks about what's causing the behaviour (separation anxiety, frustration, hormones, poor management, etc), presumably because he's paid by people that want quick fixes. However, a good trainer decides what method they're going to use based on what's causing the behaviour - especially in the case of R+, because that affects what reinforcement you'll use and how effective it'll be. An R+ trainer might decide that, in this horse's case, ditch the food rewards and use the Premack principle 'to reward' instead.

I know he has some success stories but this is why I wouldn't let SY near my horse. I understand he's often an emergency callout but an actual qualified behaviourist is what people need to assess why these horses are so dysfunctional in the first place. Appreciate the effort in your post Stangs, as always!

 

[paddy555]

Its interesting. Especially since 99% of people use verbal praise and pats (conversation about whether pats are actually rewarding or not notwithstanding) which are R+ but when you decide to use food people lose their minds. If a pat works, why wouldn't food work? If you think pats don't work, why do you use them? I think a lot of it is just lack of knowledge. I started out wanting to learn and I still had a lot of misconceptions that needed education from a qualified pro.



I know he has some success stories but this is why I wouldn't let SY near my horse. I understand he's often an emergency callout but an actual qualified behaviourist is what people need to assess why these horses are so dysfunctional in the first place. Appreciate the effort in your post Stangs, as always!

why would you want to make the horse food orientated? It is possibly not people losing their minds but simply their experience of over treating horses and what can be the resultant behaviour. Rewarding with voice and a scratch on the forehead no problem. If it makes a horse food orientated that is just adding a potential problem for some horses.

If you take the horse in the video which was what I was actually asking R + people about how would food solve it's problem?

the problem I have is as we have just seen here, people comment and criticise the work of SJ (I have no idea about him only this video) they wouldn't let him near their horses, but then they don't explain how they personally would deal with this particular situation which was what I was asking ie how would you read he situation/the problem and how would you deal with it. You are standing outside the stable now you have to do something what exactly are you going to do for the next hour?

what is an actual qualified behaviourist? what qualifications do they have? why would you think they would be in a better or different position to assess a horse than say a trainer such as this one or any other. The on the ground trainer to my mind has studied horse behaviour through their work first hand, they are the ones who have put their neck on the line and risk getting hurt.

That trainer puts himself in very wrong, and dangerous, positions. That is not what good trainers do. Certainly not who I would entrust with training a horse, or use as an example as a better alternative to R+.

it is dangerous no question but it is easy to criticise any trainer. M question is how would you start to deal with it rather than disliking that trainer's methods.

We often with horses don't seem to get past arm chair critics. I think to do that you have to be able to explain and demonstrate a better and more effective solution if you are going to criticise. . I'm not in any way against R + or for pressure and release to me it is simply what works. It does concern me that there seem to be horses that become badly behaved nowadays, then the owners can't cope and there is even talk of not passing the horse on but PTS because of it's behaviour. That is upsetting. . The mare in the video I quoted to my mind solved the problem quickly and efficiently and didn't need a behaviourist. .


I would still be interested in anyone's assessment of the horse and how they would deal with it. Not sure I will be lucky

 

[smolmaus]

why would you want to make the horse food orientated? It is possibly not people losing their minds but simply their experience of over treating horses and what can be the resultant behaviour. Rewarding with voice and a scratch on the forehead no problem. If it makes a horse food orientated that is just adding a potential problem for some horses.

If you take the horse in the video which was what I was actually asking R + people about how would food solve it's problem?

the problem I have is as we have just seen here, people comment and criticise the work of SJ (I have no idea about him only this video) they wouldn't let him near their horses, but then they don't explain how they personally would deal with this particular situation which was what I was asking ie how would you read he situation/the problem and how would you deal with it. You are standing outside the stable now you have to do something what exactly are you going to do for the next hour?

what is an actual qualified behaviourist? what qualifications do they have? why would you think they would be in a better or different position to assess a horse than say a trainer such as this one or any other. The on the ground trainer to my mind has studied horse behaviour through their work first hand, they are the ones who have put their neck on the line and risk getting hurt.

Horses are already food orientated. If you instill basic manners and politeness around food rewards any potential issues are manageable. You have a lack of knowledge in this area, so you aren't aware that that is always the very first step.

It is not "people" saying that about SY, it is me personally. And I also already said my why quite clearly. He doesn't look for causes or management solutions, only how to stop symptoms and I have no interest in that approach. You can Google what an equine behaviourist is if you don't know. But by qualifications I mean formal education, professional accreditation and regular CPD requirements to maintain that accreditation. That will involve "on the ground" experience by necessity as that is their job. You would (hopefully) know what I meant if I said "qualified physiotherapist" rather than "bodyworker".

Maybe you should start your own thread if you want people to discuss that video specifically. It has no relevance to positive reinforcement or clicker training.

 

[Titchy Reindeer]

why would you want to make the horse food orientated? It is possibly not people losing their minds but simply their experience of over treating horses and what can be the resultant behaviour. Rewarding with voice and a scratch on the forehead no problem. If it makes a horse food orientated that is just adding a potential problem for some horses.

If you take the horse in the video which was what I was actually asking R + people about how would food solve it's problem?

the problem I have is as we have just seen here, people comment and criticise the work of SJ (I have no idea about him only this video) they wouldn't let him near their horses, but then they don't explain how they personally would deal with this particular situation which was what I was asking ie how would you read he situation/the problem and how would you deal with it. You are standing outside the stable now you have to do something what exactly are you going to do for the next hour?

what is an actual qualified behaviourist? what qualifications do they have? why would you think they would be in a better or different position to assess a horse than say a trainer such as this one or any other. The on the ground trainer to my mind has studied horse behaviour through their work first hand, they are the ones who have put their neck on the line and risk getting hurt.


it is dangerous no question but it is easy to criticise any trainer. M question is how would you start to deal with it rather than disliking that trainer's methods.

We often with horses don't seem to get past arm chair critics. I think to do that you have to be able to explain and demonstrate a better and more effective solution if you are going to criticise. . I'm not in any way against R + or for pressure and release to me it is simply what works. It does concern me that there seem to be horses that become badly behaved nowadays, then the owners can't cope and there is even talk of not passing the horse on but PTS because of it's behaviour. That is upsetting. . The mare in the video I quoted to my mind solved the problem quickly and efficiently and didn't need a behaviourist. .


I would still be interested in anyone's assessment of the horse and how they would deal with it. Not sure I will be lucky

I will preface this by saying that I've only watched about 10min of the video, I don't have the time to watch it all.

Horses are food orientated naturally, food is a primary reinforcement because it is essential to survival. You will not find a not food orientated horse unless it's very ill. Some horses will be more food orientated than others (the "greedy" ones) and all horses will be more or less food orientated at a given time depending on how hungry they are and what else might be more interesting around (mare in season / huge predatory farm machinery that might eat them, etc...). R+ is not limited to food, but food is easy because a) it's a primary reinforcer and therefore has strong value b) easier to use than the two other primary reinforcers (social interaction and sex). You can use a secondary reinforcer such as scratches, but you need to be sure your horse actually enjoys them, or your wasting your time (scratches will likely be aversive for a feral for example, so instead of rewarding, you would be flooding)

Using food rewards is the same as using any form of reinforcement, it's all in the timing. If you mess up the timing, you are not reinforcing what you want, whether that's giving a treat when your horse shoves you aside to reach your pouch or carrying on pulling on the lead rope when the horse has put it's foot on the ramp of the trailer. There are scientific studies in peer reviewed papers showing the effectiveness of food-based R+ and showing that it does not in itself encourage biting (that would be the bad timing) - sorry, not feeling like searching for them, but a quick search on google scholar should bring them up.

For the horse in the video (based on the first 10 min and assuming it didn't do itself any brain damage in it's accident as a youngster), to train it to lead using R+, I would:

Teach him the association "click" / treat, in the stable with me on the outside of the door
Teach him to touch a target with his nose from outside the stable
Use the target to get him to move away from the door of the stable while I open and close it (by getting him to touch it with his nose further from the door)
Use the target to get him to move around the stable
Use the target to teach him to put his head into the headcollar on his own
with headcollar and lead rope on, use the target to move him around the stable
Same again but in the barn
Same again, but outside
Start varying environment for leading
Fade out target
fade out food rewards, until they are infrequent and irregular

I would in parallel, teach him to give to pressure on the headcollar, using R+: small pressure on the headcollar, if he gives, reward. If he doesn't give, you release the pressure anyway (so that it doesn't become pressure-release if you want stay strictly R+) and try again a few seconds later.

I will also add that, I'm not a strictly R+ person (as far as I know, no one can truly be all the time), but if you can use R+ to teach dolphins to jump through hoops, elephants to have their feet sorted and lions to go to their marker, there is no reason you can't use it to teach a horse to lead (or do anything really - though I will admit it may take some thinking for the best way to achieve your results)

 

[Matafleur]

I would still be interested in anyone's assessment of the horse and how they would deal with it. Not sure I will be lucky

Perhaps because you've chosen to come onto a thread where we've all been peacefully and happily comparing our training techniques and progress (and absolutely not preaching that R+ is the only way, quite the opposite in fact) and demanded we explain to you how to train an unruly and dangerous horse using R+?!

Titchy Pony has given you a really good breakdown of an example set of steps to take, and makes a very good point that Operant Conditioning has been in place for many, many years and is used very effectively with large and dangerous animals where pressure/release simply isnt possible. It works, very effectively.

I use pressure and release all the time, I have lots of time and respect for a large number of pressure and release and other types of trainer, a good trainer is a good trainer, whatever (non abusive) method they use. I wouldn't personally include SY in that category as I think there are many other people that do what he does, better. But I know lots of people really rate him and he does get results.

I've used R+ on 4 different horses over about 15 years now. All of them would have been considered extremely polite to handle. However, I confess that I have never, and would never, deal with something as difficult as the horse in the video. Why would I when this is my hobby and supposed to be fun?!

 

[Exasperated]

why would you want to make the horse food orientated? It is possibly not people losing their minds but simply their experience of over treating horses and what can be the resultant behaviour. Rewarding with voice and a scratch on the forehead no problem. If it makes a horse food orientated that is just adding a potential problem for some horses.

If you take the horse in the video which was what I was actually asking R + people about how would food solve it's problem?

the problem I have is as we have just seen here, people comment and criticise the work of SJ (I have no idea about him only this video) they wouldn't let him near their horses, but then they don't explain how they personally would deal with this particular situation which was what I was asking ie how would you read he situation/the problem and how would you deal with it. You are standing outside the stable now you have to do something what exactly are you going to do for the next hour?

what is an actual qualified behaviourist? what qualifications do they have? why would you think they would be in a better or different position to assess a horse than say a trainer such as this one or any other. The on the ground trainer to my mind has studied horse behaviour through their work first hand, they are the ones who have put their neck on the line and risk getting hurt.


it is dangerous no question but it is easy to criticise any trainer. M question is how would you start to deal with it rather than disliking that trainer's methods.

We often with horses don't seem to get past arm chair critics. I think to do that you have to be able to explain and demonstrate a better and more effective solution if you are going to criticise. . I'm not in any way against R + or for pressure and release to me it is simply what works. It does concern me that there seem to be horses that become badly behaved nowadays, then the owners can't cope and there is even talk of not passing the horse on but PTS because of it's behaviour. That is upsetting. . The mare in the video I quoted to my mind solved the problem quickly and efficiently and didn't need a behaviourist. .


I would still be interested in anyone's assessment of the horse and how they would deal with it. Not sure I will be lucky

You are not going to get that answer.
It’s not clear amongst R+ proponents exactly what is meant by this, or quite how to clearly distinguish from aversivity, pressure, release, negative reinforcement, all the rest, when used in practical application - multiple posts, eg 75. Clearly some very good results, clearly some confusion.
I’m all for a bit of bribery, for defusing situations and keeping reasonably safe, particularly anyone faced with an over-confident, ignorant and disrespectful large animal, where clearly what works is what is required.
Do I think the video’d cob’s owner will be able to make anything of it? Using R+, or any other methodologies for that matter? Unlikely, it will be passed to another trainer and/ or sold on, hopefully not destroyed because it’s obviously got potential, but happens a lot when owners can’t cope, even well-meaning ones.

 

[Cloball]

Totally aside I think my husband has accidentally target trained our cat/positive reinforcement can't really call it clicker training as it appears to be a visual cue he's using. He sits on the ground and hold out a brush and a toy and the cat boops the one he wants and then either lies down to be brushed, gets his play face on or chooses not to engage at all. It's really adorable sort of consent based care and I've been studying to see how he's done it

 

[Exasperated]

Totally aside I think my husband has accidentally target trained our cat/positive reinforcement can't really call it clicker training as it appears to be a visual cue he's using. He sits on the ground and hold out a brush and a toy and the cat boops the one he wants and then either lies down to be brushed, gets his play face on or choices not to engage at all. It's really adorable sort of consent based care and I've been studying to see how he's done it

You don’t think the cat might have trained your husband to be hairdresser or playmate, do you?

 

[mariew]

Unfortunately when the trainers like SY get called in it's really last resort. And they cost a lot of money and people want results. I did clicker training really successfully for some things she thought would be scary but wasnt with my old horse. She was big and bargey and loud in her actions. I had to mix with her and when she was in a boisterous mood just manage somehow.

I now have a super sensitive, not very confident 10 year old mare who is petrified of everything and wondering whether this would work. For food though she just does something quickly for the reward so is focusing on treats so I am pondering next steps.

She might be a lost cause, you can throw rug on her 100 times and 101 she utterly freaks out and nothing is different . I don't think I got told the full story when I bought her