smolmaus
Well-Known Member
My cat trains me with positive punishment (she puts her claws in my face until I give her space on the pillow) 
The positive reinforcement and clicker training thread
- Thread starter stangs
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smolmaus
Well-Known Member
I have had this issue also and reducing the value of the reward helped. We moved from actual treats to dry grass nuts. It has to be a "nice to have" and not a "must have" or yes, exactly as you've seen the horse can't focus on the question. That, in combination with more frequent breaks for thinking, made a big difference.Unfortunately when the trainers like SY get called in it's really last resort. And they cost a lot of money and people want results. I did clicker training really successfully for some things she thought would be scary but wasnt with my old horse. She was big and bargey and loud in her actions. I had to mix with her and when she was in a boisterous mood just manage somehow.
I now have a super sensitive, not very confident 10 year old mare who is petrified of everything and wondering whether this would work. For food though she just does something quickly for the reward so is focusing on treats so I am pondering next steps.
She might be a lost cause, you can throw rug on her 100 times and 101 she utterly freaks out and nothing is different. I don't think I got told the full story when I bought her
Cloball
Well-Known Member
I imagine that the positive reinforcement is getting the nice think albeit brush or play rather than food. I've bought a book on R+ but I really think I'm the sort of person who needs someone to come out and show me. I'm quite intrigued about the ridden stuff you're doing @smolmaus as softening and relaxing the neck and into the contact is something we've been working on and I just do a lot of praise and neck scratches when she softens.
mariew
Well-Known Member
Ill reduce and basically feed her her balancer to see if it makes a difference . She doesn't really like being touched so scratches are not a reward. I suspect just backing off is better. Early days!
smolmaus
Well-Known Member
I think the clarity of the click was the difference there. I got the timing absolutely perfect a few times and that was it. A "good girl" does function as a bridge signal and scratches as your reward so the idea is the exact same but for things you might want to capture a single short moment, I really like the clear and consistent click.
HOWEVER last night, I thought I was marking for a lateral flexion ONCE and what I got for the next 5 minutes was "you want me to fall out through my shoulder? Cool, no worries, can do that all day"
so uh, yeah, gotta be careful
smolmaus
Well-Known Member
Absolutely! This is where my anti-SY sentiment comes back
Backing off, letting her adjust, seeing what you can change in her management to reduce her day to day stress is going to be far more useful in the long run than how you encourage or discourage specific behaviours 
Cloball
Well-Known Member
Yes I've managed to do this a few times she loves a reinback when she doesn't quite understand what I wantI think the clarity of the click was the difference there. I got the timing absolutely perfect a few times and that was it. A "good girl" does function as a bridge signal and scratches as your reward so the idea is the exact same but for things you might want to capture a single short moment, I really like the clear and consistent click.
HOWEVER last night, I thought I was marking for a lateral flexion ONCE and what I got for the next 5 minutes was "you want me to fall out through my shoulder? Cool, no worries, can do that all day"
paddy555
Well-Known Member
my cat probably does similar however it weighs about 4kg and if it punishes me too much I can chuck it on the ground and remain quite safe. The horse in that video would punish you with 700kg of it's hind feet and it would be A & E.My cat trains me with positive punishment (she puts her claws in my face until I give her space on the pillow)
paddy555
Well-Known Member
which is why I was asking for people to educate me as to how they would deal with this using R+ (and food)
In this case I think SV has looked for causes and this is his management solution. Agree or not, this is one management method for this problem. I guess that what you mean by equine behaviourist I mean by horseman. I'm not discussing the video specifically I was simply asking those on this thread who advocated R + how, using their method they would deal with this particular horse.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
thank you for your reply
paddy555
Well-Known Member
i'm sorry for intruding on your thread. I thought all threads were for all posters. I am not demanding simply asking how your training would used and work on this sort of horse. Yes he is unruly and dangerous which is why I asked for the benefits of R+ on this sort of problem. It is clear that posters here dismiss the method shown in that video of pressure and release as being disliked/ unacceptable/unjustified or whatever else so I don't feel it unseasonable to ask about R+.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
I agree with your comments and I don't think I am going to get much of an answer. I use nuts occasionally, not for bribery or even reward, but to get a horse to chew and breath. One situation is with a young horse I am leading out on the roads and we meet a large lorry/cattle trailer. They may have to climb up onto a bank whilst the vehicle squeezes past them. It helps the first few times for them to lower their head and breathe.
I think sadly in this case there was too much work needed with the horse and too little time for SV to work and train her that the horse may have ended up being passed on. I hope he is OK. I would have so loved him.
This horse very sadly for me just brings home the problem of well meaning owners letting horses get away from them and failing to educate them. They seem to misread them or feel unable to discipline them. Then they move onto the stage of being problem horses and then their future has to be considered and should they be PTS.
To my mind horses like and benefit from strong, confident and well ljudged leadership along with discipline. That way they feel safe and happy. It does concern me that in modern horse life a behaviourist with qualifications is apparently needed. What grooms and riders knew (or worked out) in the past now needs qualifications.
trainers who, at risk, finally get called in to deal with a problem get mocked by internet arm chair critics.
Titchy Reindeer
Well-Known Member
Of course horses need confident and well judged leadership and discipline. Using R+ is not a barrier to this. As I stated above, no matter your method of training you need good timing and also self discipline. If you're lacking either of those things, your training is going to be dodgy at best. I volunteer dog train, where R+ is a respected and well used tool (the horse world is a bit behind when it comes to moving with the times and the science), and I have volunteered in two different clubs, one of which was a lot more of a "pressure-release" kind of place (the reason I left). In both cases, either yanking on the dog's lead or giving it treats, if the owner was not doing it at right moment, it didn't have the desired effect. Yank on the lead too often and forget to release it when the dog is beside you and the dog decides it may as well just keep on pulling, because it's the same whatever its position is in relation to the owner. Fumble around in your zipped pocket to find the plastic poly bag with the bits of ham in and fish one out when your dog looks at you, and by the time you've got the treat, the dog has wandered off again; chance missed. When I was toilet training my puppy, every time she peed on my carpet, it's because I'd messed up and not taken her out often enough. To get the result I wanted, I needed to get stricter... on myself.
I assume you have nothing against using a qualified instructor to teach some one to ride. Why is using a qualified behaviourist to teach you to use R+ methods an issue? Many people don't grow up around horses, but still love them and want to interact, ride and own them. They need someone to help them out (ideally before the horse has trampled them). They also want to use methods that are not traditional, and that are struggling to break through into the general horse world, of course they would go to a specialist. If R+ was part of every instructors tool bag, it wouldn't be needed.
I think the "qualified" part is important to mention, because behaviourist is not a protected term. Anyone can set up as one, so you would ideally want to check qualifications, experience and recommendations as you would do for a saddle fitter or a farrier. Their results will be more important than their qualifications, but you need something to start on.
Matafleur
Well-Known Member
Is it clear?! Pretty much every poster has said they use a variety of methods, including pressure and release, among others. No-one has dismissed P&R as a valid training technique, a couple of us have expressed that we don't believe SY is the best user of it we've ever seen. I think it's perfectly useful in lots of situations, sometimes the preferred method.
Im really confused about why you are so dismissive about a science based training technique that no-one has suggested you use or that should be used exclusively or that is the best way of dealing with the video you've posted.
I could understand if this was a thread full of posts preaching that R+ was the only way, how dare anyone ever apply any pressure to a horse etc. We've literally just been sharing a few experiences in our own, personal training, some of which have also included P&R.
Training evolves and moves on, we should be taking the best, most effective bits of every techniques and using them to make our horses lives better, easier, clearer, less stressful.
Years ago on the competitive dog obedience scene, a lot of training was done using check chains etc. Then the clicker training lot turned up and started winning everything, with high drive, highly motivated dogs. And they were very hard to beat because the foundations were strong. Now obviously horses aren't dogs, but neither are elephants, orcas, dolphins, lions, seals, fish, chickens...
No-one is stopping you using P&R, I will always use it for some things. But you could open your mind and add another training technique to the box if you wanted to.
mariew
Well-Known Member
There's never going to be a simple answer or one solution to anything. I have seen what one session with sy did for a very dominant and aggressive mare (not mine), it was only positive tbh. Mare was content not to need to be in charge anymore and was much easier to handle and visibly more relaxed. For her it was the right method. And it lasted at least until she got sold months later
I don't think it would work with my current one, as her problem is she's scared of life and on high alert, and reacts badly to any force or anything upsetting her, so I believe it would be quite detrimental.
R+ is a lot less lairey and quiet so hopefully it will have some effects, but I think I will have to stop with food rewards really quick. It will be an interesting journey.
I don't think it would work with my current one, as her problem is she's scared of life and on high alert, and reacts badly to any force or anything upsetting her, so I believe it would be quite detrimental.
R+ is a lot less lairey and quiet so hopefully it will have some effects, but I think I will have to stop with food rewards really quick. It will be an interesting journey.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
I looked this up as I was unfamiliar with them. The ones I looked up were the society of equine behaviour consultants. I was a bit surprised. briefly there were 3 levels. first you needed a CV, 2 references, a portfolio which was considered by the exam board. there was a written and oral paper. a practical exam to test your knowledge of equine behaviour. A lot could be done by remote learning training online. There were additional optional group sessions as various venues. Level 2 you had to do level one and have a degree. Not sure what use a degree would be other than equine science which it did not specify. Level 3 you had to do level one and basically be a vet.
There seemed to be a lot of written, online, book learning. I had anticipated it would be similar to dealing with problems such as the black horse, the ones M Peace, Max, TRT etc etc deal with. Very very much practically based and very much problem solving. As you say results are more important. I'm not sure I would expect results from these qualifications. The people I have admired and envied the most (just ordinary people) have been ones with tons of experience but more importantly ability. I'm not really sure that ability and experience can be learnt from a qualification. It comes from continual practical learning with endless horses adapting and learning as you go.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
certainly interesing learning more but for me personally I would see it as too stressful with food so involved. I don't see food coming into it as being natural horse behaviour. ie how they relate to each other
NR88
Well-Known Member
I agree with you on this. However I'm always interested in find out about other ways so that I can make an informed decision. I have no ill feeling towards R+ but, currently, it does not reconcile in my thoughts with how prey animals like horses learn and interact. This may change as I have changed my mind and ways many a time over the preceeding decades.
In regards to your question @paddy555 as to how I would have handled that cob. Firstly I cannot offer up an R+ option if that was the basis of your question.
I am very confident in my ability to train horses with behaviours such as this cob. I am no longer so willing to put myself into that position to help others these days because while training horses is rewarding, working with the people who created the issues is a very different challenge.
If I found myself in the shoes of SY I would have tried to find a well mannered horse to teach the owner how to handle horses correctly and safely. This would also involve hats and glove all round.
Secondly I would use a rope halter with a longer rope, but not a lunge line. Thirdly I would never work a horse on a concrete yard. Fourthly I would never put myself in such a dangerous and vulnerable position as to walk in front of an unknown, bargey horse with it directly behind me.
Ideally an arena of sorts, but a paddock would suffice, I'd put the horse on a circle and teach it to move away from pressure. I would use the spare length of rope in my non direct hand and swing/circle it to drive the horse forward and keep it away from my space. As I am typing I realise that I will not be able to describe this accurately enough as to avoid scrutiny. Basically I would teach the horse to yield from pressure, with the reward of no pressure. Using these methods I would train the horse to yield it's whole body, then isolate quarters, shoulders and ribs along with backing up. Then I have a soft horse who does not barge into my space.
Massive improvements can be made within one short session. But it does require consistency and correct positioning and timing by the handler.
Hopefully that answers your question of me as to what I would do and some examples as to why I do not class SY as a good Horseman. Having seen his dog training video, he is a not a good dog trainer either.
Sean Coleman, Jason Webb, Warwick Schiller, Joe Midgley, Michael Pearce and Richard Maxwell all have better training videos if anyone was looking for better guidance in horsemanship and handling of bargey (spoilt by their owner) horses.
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stangs
Well-Known Member
Tbh youāre not going to get a detailed assessment of this horse from me because I just donāt have the time to watch the whole video and form an opinion of him.
However, I think youāll find that I did mention specific methods that I might utilise if I were training this horse, as quoted below.
These are both behaviours you could train in a stable (potentially with the handler outside of the stable, the horse inside, to protect the handler a bit more) or in the field, given that he doesnāt seem particularly fond of his stable. The process is similar to what Titchypony describes.
I agree with you that heās not nasty, because 99.99% of horses arenāt nasty anyway. Based on the first few minutes, I see a horse whoās knows he can brace against pressure and win (when heās dragging the owner in the field) but also an anxious horse whose anxiety is partly a result of not knowing how to soften to pressure. I get the impression he runs through pressure because he doesnāt know how else to get rid of it (when heās tanking off outside of the field).
I also see nipping behaviour which could be the consequence of any number of things. Maybe heās mouthy because heās a young male without an appropriate field mate. Maybe the mouthiness is a result of a bad weaning, or just his go-to way to communicate frustration.
A big part of R+ is rewarding the behaviour you do want, rather than punishing what you do want. So, with the nipping, I might decide to interrupt the behaviour if I think heās about to nip (e.g., by startling him with a sound or sending him out of my space), but the main thing would rewarding good behaviour. As I mentioned earlier, one thing I might do is train him to put his nose into a headcollar because working towards that goal gives me something to reward. Itās also useful because he canāt put his head up to nip me and put his nose into his headcollar at the same time. (This is what is meant by reinforcement of incompatible behaviours.)
When I say SY 'set him up to fail', I mean he asked the horse to do behaviours that the horse is presently incapable of doing safely, behaviours that should be simple but that the horse struggles with.
You've had ferals. You wouldn't start desensitisation training with them by one day throwing a tarpaulin over them because you'd know that that would make them panic - they would go straight to fight or flight, and you wouldn't get the chance to tap into the thinking brain. That's what I mean by setting a horse up to fail.
[ETA: I don't agree with everything she says, but you might find this video of Shelby Dennis' interesting in terms of dealing with potentially dangerous behaviour through R+.]
So none of this talk of aversives, reinforcement, etc is R+ specific. Itās all part of operant conditioning, and behaviourist learning theory as a result. You don't have to be a R+ proponent to think about operant conditioning - I know some dog trainers who use a lot of punishment and negative reinforcement but who would be equally happy to have this conversation.
The differences between the four quadrants of operant conditioning (R+, R-, P+, P-) are very simple in theory. In practice, you do get things that aren't so clear cut. In dog training, for example, the classic example is training a dog not to pull on a leash by standing still whenever they pull. Some people say that's P+ (by standing still, you've added the aversive of more pressure on their neck); some people say that's P- (you've removed the good thing of the dog having the freedom to move forward). And nerds like smolmaus and I enjoy getting bogged down in the details, debating whether something is negative reinforcement or positive punishment, positive reinforcement or negative reinforcement or both.
But all that debate doesn't affect the actual animal training. It's intellectual debate for the fun of it but unless you're someone who uses nothing but R+ (which isn't true of anyone on this thread), it doesn't change what you do with the animal. Ultimately, whether you use R+ or R- (pressure and release), a good trainer works with the animal in front of them and changes their methods based on what the animal tells them.
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stangs
Well-Known Member
smolmaus
Well-Known Member
We had a very cute fun session tonight where Sadie decided she wanted to jump at liberty (because that gets her access to The Good Treats???? 
) we were supposed to be practising lunging though, so we did that after and she was a little gem! So something from Chaos Tuesday sunk in somewhere My body language was MUCH better, I think doing some fun stuff was good for me too, got us both nice and loose goosey and positive so pats on the back and a biscuit for me! Humans also operate on operant conditioning!
) we were supposed to be practising lunging though, so we did that after and she was a little gem! So something from Chaos Tuesday sunk in somewhere My body language was MUCH better, I think doing some fun stuff was good for me too, got us both nice and loose goosey and positive so pats on the back and a biscuit for me! Humans also operate on operant conditioning! It IS fun to think about and ponder and puzzle!!! What am I supposed to be mulling over on the drive home? Stock prices? What my pension pot is doing?
Exasperated
Well-Known Member
Food can be very helpful, can certainly play a role in horse training; for a pleasant association, a reward, a bribe, a distraction, etc; but itās less evident that the horses always distinguish which rationale, so long as they get to eat it.
The R+ discussed on here is overwhelmingly food focused - possibly this is a distortion of the original theoretical principles? - lengthy discussions of high versus low value snacks, snack ingredients, continuous feeding, various pouches / storage solutions for snacksā¦.
police training uses many other techniques, and a methodology with such heavy reliance on āsnacksā can create all sorts of other issues.
stangs
Well-Known Member
The start of R+ was a rat getting food pellets for pressing a lever. So no, itās not a ādistortion of the original theoretical principlesā for R+ trainers today to use food. Food has been the predominant reward in animal training with R+, from dolphins to circus animals, since the development of operant conditioning.
R+ training with animals (less so with humans) is generally food-based because food is a valuable reward to most animals and because it enables you to be very precise in your training. However, you will also find references to using scratches and the Premack principle as reinforcers in this thread - neither of which involve food. I certainly donāt advocate for people using food as their only reinforcer.
And, again, no one on this thread only uses food in training. No one on this thread uses only R+. Everyone that has contributed to this thread uses pressure and release just like you do.
To be frank, there is plenty of scrutiny of R+ on this forum already. I created this thread so that those of us who enjoy using it could have a place to talk about it without getting the constant judgement from others. I have tried to discuss yours and paddy555ās judgements fairly, but I note that you have completely ignored my response to your previous criticisms. Thatās your perogative, but, given that your goal seems to be judgement rather than open-minded discussion, I would really appreciate if you found another thread to do so.
Matafleur
Well-Known Member
Do you think your horse thinks you are a horse? Do you think the lion thinks the zookeeper is a lion?
As Titchy Pony pointed out further up, food is a primary reinforcer, a biological imperative. The use of a bridge signal ensures the food is strongly linked to the behaviour. To cover off Exasperated's point about it not being clear that horses understand the rational, of all the training methods I use (and I use mostly p&r because I ride and handle my horses in a completely conventional way), R+ is the one where I see my horse understanding most clearly. I always see the marked behaviour repeated quickly and consistently.
I also have never had any issues with my horses getting stressed or rude about food in any way. The expectations are so clear.
Anyway, that's my last response around this. I was enjoying this thread as a way to compare our training experiences in R+ and that's what I'll be focusing on now.
smolmaus
Well-Known Member
Composing a long stupid post in my head about how we need mutual co-operation communist communes immediately as the concept of money used as bribes and rewards is so far removed from our natural behaviour as primates.
Sussexbythesea
Well-Known Member
I thought Iād share two videos of different approaches with Oliver. I donāt use IG much but have put on there to share.
With Jason Webb
With me under Tracey Duncan on a long weekend with her. Our second day never done liberty before.
With Jason Webb
With me under Tracey Duncan on a long weekend with her. Our second day never done liberty before.
Matafleur
Well-Known Member
What a lovely horse!
That's interesting that you wouldn't recommend JW, he is one that I have always thought looked very good and effective. Good to to have first hand reports. I also really like Tristan Tucker so a shame that TRT wasn't effective for you.
He looks really good in your liberty video, I don't know much about how the liberty trainers train, Ben Atkinson seems to use a bridge signal and food but I don't know if that's typical?
Did you find the techniques easy to implement and continue at home?
smolmaus
Well-Known Member
Hope this doesn't muddy the waters further lol but I want to be a NERD and I think you can differentiate between the development of how to apply operant conditioning as training, and the study of it as just how all creatures, even plants!, learn and adapt. The natural environment applies consequences to behaviour that shape future behaviour. The four quadrants were not created but rather described by Skinner, as observations.
I was watching a video of my friend's baby playing with their humidifier. Turn the little thingy and it bubbles and little poofs of air come out! He is getting a fun little visual reward for interacting with it. He will be likely to interact with things that look similar in the future. If that happens to be the oven one day there may be some positive punishment involved, and I don't mean from mum, I mean touching something hot would apply it's own negative consequence making touching the oven (hopefully) less likely to occur again. Rewards R+ and punishment P+ are the easiest two of the quadrants to understand I think as "get good thing" or "get bad thing". Negative reinforcement P- (Pressure release) and negative reinforcement R- are maybe harder to think of examples where people aren't directly applying the aversive thing or controlling access to the good thing, but moving away from stressful environments is something people do also, or controlling social access is maybe the easiest non direct R-. Behave right or we won't want to be friends
anyway, I think my point was that "conditioning" happens all day every day to everything alive in almost every quadrant to some degree and being a purist or having tunnel vision about what is and isn't working to adapt behaviour is less interesting than enjoying watching all of it happen.
smolmaus
Well-Known Member
What a difference! And what an absolutely beautiful boy!
Outside of the snapshot of results, what were your feelings on the two different approaches? As Matafleur says, JW has a decent enough reputation and I'm sure his methods are effective, but I would be interested to know what you feel the primary differences were.
I only know this second hand from discussions at a liberty workshop (with my own trainer) but I think a lot of liberty (as in the performance type) is pressure-release based (Parelli was brought up as an example) and not R+. If Ben has moved to R+ that would be interesting as the last time I heard him speak about his training it seemed fairly traditional.
Matafleur
Well-Known Member
My comment about Ben was just based on a couple of clips I've seen so I may well be wrong. I also really like Connie Colfox, she doesn't have a slick SM presence but I like the output of her training and she had a great rep years ago when I lived down her way. She takes in quite a few competition horses with various issues and tries a different way with them.What a difference! And what an absolutely beautiful boy!
Outside of the snapshot of results, what were your feelings on the two different approaches? As Matafleur says, JW has a decent enough reputation and I'm sure his methods are effective, but I would be interested to know what you feel the primary differences were.
I only know this second hand from discussions at a liberty workshop (with my own trainer) but I think a lot of liberty (as in the performance type) is pressure-release based (Parelli was brought up as an example) and not R+. If Ben has moved to R+ that would be interesting as the last time I heard him speak about his training it seemed fairly traditional.