The PRE or "Andalusian"

[Bossanova]

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Good ones have far more natural suspension and cadence in the pace when produced correctly than the warmblood. They have a much more natural collecting hindleg but it's a myth that the extension is poor because again, a well trained iberian will produce a very technically correct extension.


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We will have to agree to disagree with this Bossanova. Even in Jerez where I would presume the school of equestrian art is capable of breeding top quality horses and training them properly, the pure breds did not have good extensions compared to warmbloods.


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I could argue their case all day

I agree it's very much down to taste and I come at it from a 'classical' POV.

To me, the modern warmbloods which have been bred uphill with a high neck and croup break at the wither and whilst they have that 'wow' look about their extension, if you analyse it, it is quite often false and not in true balance. This shows more in the passage when the passage becomes disjointed and leads in front. An iberian (correctly trained) will always passage true and thus you can lead that into a much truer extension which may be naturally shorter from the shoulder outwards but will actually be more up and from the hindleg.

 

[Damien]

There are some lovely examples here......

http://www.spanishhorsequest.com/

Showing both extension and collection.

I think the breed is slowly being modified to suit modern dressage demands, and similar changes have been seen in recent years as has been seen in the Friesian breed.

Its a shame the sydney 2000 website is no longer operational as they had a photo album of competitors and many of which were riding andalusian horses, it really intruiged me so remember looking into it more at that time and you would really have been hard pushed to identify that they were not eu warbloods.

I was aslo working closely with Sylvia Loch shortly after to develop her website so spent time photographing the horses and learning more about the Baroque types.

However Sylvia primarily refers to the Lusitano as opposed to the Andalucian and other than recognising that Andalcia is a region in Spain not quite sure what the differences are? I think however her black stallion was reffered to as being Andalucian.

Would love to know more?

All in all agree that their collectivitey is the purest one could ask for in a good horse remeber the performance of Jimenez at Sydney I think that was the most awsome of performances.

 

[abuela]

A few comments re some of the points raised in the thread:.

P.R.E - spoken out as the three letters - stands for Pura Raza Española - Pure Breed Spanish.

It is a closed breed. A horse must be born of registered parents, and inscribed at birth in the Spanish stud book. He/she must also complete a second 'Revision' at around three years of age to be approved as a breeding stallion/mare.

It is not a breed with great numbers. All PREs are registered with the Spanish Stud Book in Spain.

The Stud Book is owned by the Spanish Govt., and used to be administered by the Military.
Then administration (not ownership) was taken over by an organisation of breeders called ANCCE (Another story..) in Jan 2007.

ANCCE has protocols with various National Administrations - e.g. BAPSH in the UK.
Each national organisation looks after the PRE stuff in its own country. and they all continue to relate to Spain.

PS's:
- A Lusitano is a PSL - Puro Sangue Lusitano, the Portuguese parallel to the PRE.

- Andalusian is a description term that has been popularized and is in general use.

- There is no breed called Andalusian.

- The two breeds are also collectively referred to as Iberians.

- Yes, there are ripples re America - a whole 'nother story.

 

[argyle]

You may find this interesting if you are still trying to convince your husband!

http://www.eurodressage.com/news/breeding/suddeutsch/06_ubio.html

I was trying to find another article that I remembered but came across this one, I'll see if I can find the other as it was about a warmblood x andalusian.

 

[Hollycat]

Bossanova - have you read the article I mentioned in this months BD mag? One of the criticisms often leveled at Iberians is tightness in the back, and I thought this article did a very good job of explaining that they are NOT tight through the back and that it is simply that many judges do not have enough training/experience to understand how different conformation gives different impressions.

I would agree that many warmbloods are incorrectly trained in their extensions - hence you get many WOW horses that never go much beyond novice as they cannot engage and find the more advanced work difficult. This is a traning issue as much as anything though in every breed we will get the superstars and the others, whilst they will win no medals will give their riders years of pleasure.

Personally I find many Iberian horses stunning and I am hoping to find a classical dressage school in Portugal or Spain (if anyone has any recommendations please let me know) for a holiday to ride the more advanced movements like tempi changes, passage etc.

 

[Whizz105]

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I am putting my mare to a PRE stallion... well trying! you will find ones in UK will accept non PRE mares.

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Whizz105: Who are you using (or trying to use) ??
I would love more info if you wouldnt mind x

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I am trying Romero XXV from Gazero Stud in Hampshire. There is also one standing in Dorset. Noble stud...

 

[Whizz105]

I am using Romero XXV from Gazero Stud. they are in Hampshire

Did consider Nogal from Noble Stud... they are in Dorset...

 

[Anastasia]

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You may find this interesting if you are still trying to convince your husband!

http://www.eurodressage.com/news/breeding/suddeutsch/06_ubio.html

I was trying to find another article that I remembered but came across this one, I'll see if I can find the other as it was about a warmblood x andalusian.

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Thanks for the link - love the following quote:
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"I treated my wife to a a trip to Spain and we made a tour visiting breed farms near Madrid. Whenever we go on a trip, we always return with a horse,"

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If only my hubby was the same.....LOL

BTW what a really interesting read this thread is, and thanks to everyone who contributed.

I have seen a beautiful stallion for sale but its around 65,000 euros trained to passage and piaffe (not that I am that level...LOL). Have been speaking to a lady who has come very highly recommended and who has invited me to go over to Spain sometime, which would be fantastic.....but I think I will have to rob a bank first for the 65,000 euros.....

 

[abuela]

Have you seen Bambu XX, recently imported from Spain?

In his first outing at Royal Windsor he gained a fourth.


Bambu XX Purebred Spanish Stallion UK

 

[Anastasia]

Lovely looking stallion abuela, thanks for the link.

 

[Whizz105]

Very nice but I want a Dark Bay...!

 

[argyle]

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"I treated my wife to a a trip to Spain and we made a tour visiting breed farms near Madrid. Whenever we go on a trip, we always return with a horse,"

Yes that was the part that I thought may have interested you!

 

[abuela]

Understood.

I took a look at his genealogy (courtesy of the Spanish Stud Book records), and he is grey all the way back. Only has one bay in his 4 th generation.

I agree, the Gazaro stallion is nice.

 

[Anastasia]

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Quote:
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"I treated my wife to a a trip to Spain and we made a tour visiting breed farms near Madrid. Whenever we go on a trip, we always return with a horse,"

Yes that was the part that I thought may have interested you!

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My OH comes from farming background.....I think it would take nothing short of a miracle for me to be as lucky as the above...

BTW Abuela , on the website you linked to it says the stallion has done well in "morphology" classes.....what on earth are these??

 

[Whizz105]

What Romero?

According to this all dads side are bays and one out two on mothers side are grey...

http://www.gazaro.co.uk/pedigrees/romero.JPG


??

Did you look at Nobel Stud?

 

[SirenaXVI]

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I have ridden a few iberian horses (on holiday in Spain) and seen ones stabled at livery alongside my horse. For me I did not like their paces compared to the warmblood. It was like riding a very small, short striding pony with no suspension.

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You must have ridden bad ones.

Good ones have far more natural suspension and cadence in the pace when produced correctly than the warmblood. They have a much more natural collecting hindleg but it's a myth that the extension is poor because again, a well trained iberian will produce a very technically correct extension.

The issue comes in because Iberians are much less forgiving than a warmblood- a warmblood is about setting the biomechanics right and the rest tends to fall into place. With an iberian is much more of a head game and you cannot just bump the warmblood biomechanics into them anad expect them to cover the ground with big warmbloody paces.

Oooh and the issue of iberian vs warmblood stallions. Trust me, there are some hot iberian lines and these stallions are not easy! Our luso stallion is straighhtforward because he was handled correctly in Portugal but he can be a total nightmare when his hormones engage before brain!

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Agree 100% with Boss, people seem to think the Iberian is 'easy', I can asssure you they are not the easyride that most people think. Boss is completely right, they are not push button, and, if you don't sit absolutely straight, they will mirror you alarmingly, you see far too many (and a lot of them stallions) ridden badly. Yes they are eminently trainable, but they can learn bad things just as easily as they can good. Yes, the stallions are good in the main, but this is due to the way they are handled - at the end of the day a stallion is a stallion and needs stallion handling and riding. PREs are hotbloods, just like the arab and the tb, this needs to be thought about before anyone rushes out to buy one - I have lost count of the times I have seen them labelled 'problem horse' because they have ended up with the wrong person.

Also agree that there are some incredibly 'hot' bloodlines and when an Iberian is hot my God it is hot!

 

[Tiffany]

I love the breed and went out out to Jerez to see the Andulusian's there and they were all beautiful. Again, they were all stallions! One thing I did notice was that even though they could all really extend, Piaffe, Passage etc very few of them moved straight ? Is that usual for the breed

 

[SirenaXVI]

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I love Andalusians. They're my favourite breed in the world

I've never owned one but i dont think i'd cross one wth my warmbloods, i'd rather have a pure bred myself. Having said that, i've only ever seen a TB x Andalusian, none of which i was impressed by....perhaps a warmblood x would look different?

Are you thinking of going down that route Anastasia?

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Never seen a TB/Andalusian yet that I have liked, although it is a popular cross in Spain for Bullfighting, the Anglo Arab cross is also popular and is called a Tres Sangres (three blood), these are really nice allround sporthorses - this is a Tres Sangres

Another popular cross is the Hispano which is a straight Arab/Andalusian, they have their own studbook in spain and have to be graded before they can breed, there are some very good ones around and a couple of elite graded ones in the UK.

The Warmblood cross is very very nice actually, have seen several and all have been lovely horses.

 

[SirenaXVI]

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I love the breed and went out out to Jerez to see the Andulusian's there and they were all beautiful. Again, they were all stallions! One thing I did notice was that even though they could all really extend, Piaffe, Passage etc very few of them moved straight ? Is that usual for the breed

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Do you mean they dished? The spanish bred the dish in as they thought it made the horse look flashy, now they are breeding the dish out - none of mine dish, although if Sirena is not ridden forward properly she can dish slightly.

 

[SirenaXVI]

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I think they're beautiful, I liked the idea of one before I bought my filly, a couple of things put me off, it seems that most of the competition ones are stallions, I wondered if the geldings would lack sparkle, it seems quite difficult to find a filly. Also the ones I've seen competing seem to get alot of comments about tightness (maybe thats just the individuals I've seen) but I've had an Arab mare for years and thats always been her problem so it put me off abit.

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I compete my mare BD, not had any tightness comments

 

[Bossanova]

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I love the breed and went out out to Jerez to see the Andulusian's there and they were all beautiful. Again, they were all stallions! One thing I did notice was that even though they could all really extend, Piaffe, Passage etc very few of them moved straight ? Is that usual for the breed

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One of the problems with buying a trained horse from Spain is that they have largely been trained for the import market. That means they have been rushed and never had proper foundations put in place. Because it is comparitively easy to teach an iberian to piaffe/passage, it is used as a selling point but actually the quality of the work is poor- indicated maybe by a lack of straightness.

I wouldnt buy a trained one unless I knew it had been done properly.

 

[Tiffany]

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I love the breed and went out out to Jerez to see the Andulusian's there and they were all beautiful. Again, they were all stallions! One thing I did notice was that even though they could all really extend, Piaffe, Passage etc very few of them moved straight ? Is that usual for the breed

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Do you mean they dished? The spanish bred the dish in as they thought it made the horse look flashy, now they are breeding the dish out - none of mine dish, although if Sirena is not ridden forward properly she can dish slightly.

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Yes they nearly all dished

I've got an RID mare and some people have mistaken her for a Andulusian (don't know if that's good or bad?) but having looked back into the ID I was told they originated from the Andulusian - do you know if this is correct ?

 

[MotherOfChickens]

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Also agree that there are some incredibly 'hot' bloodlines and when an Iberian is hot my God it is hot!

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agree 100% with everything you and Boss have written. they are incredibly sensitive (but great fun

) and need thoughtful handling in and out of saddle. I have a Viega (bullfighting) bred PSL and he is incredibly athletic-can run as fast backwards, sideways and diagonally with the same acceleration as he can forward

. the PSLs I have known will not tolerate any degree of 'hand' riding and they unfailingly show up your faults! super horses though-great jumpers as well, athletic and careful.

 

[SirenaXVI]

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I love the breed and went out out to Jerez to see the Andulusian's there and they were all beautiful. Again, they were all stallions! One thing I did notice was that even though they could all really extend, Piaffe, Passage etc very few of them moved straight ? Is that usual for the breed

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Do you mean they dished? The spanish bred the dish in as they thought it made the horse look flashy, now they are breeding the dish out - none of mine dish, although if Sirena is not ridden forward properly she can dish slightly.

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Yes they nearly all dished

I've got an RID mare and some people have mistaken her for a Andulusian (don't know if that's good or bad?) but having looked back into the ID I was told they originated from the Andulusian - do you know if this is correct ?

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Have not heard that one! The Connemara on the other hand owes a fair bit to the PRE, apparently a lot washed up on the coast of Connemara when the Armada sank!

 

[argyle]

Still haven't found the article I was after but I did find this:

http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2007/07wcyh/rep_5yo_photo.html

Scroll down to the picture of the grey horse, I thought it was interesting that Ullrich Kasselmann had an involvement with the horse as well.

 

[abuela]

Bossanova, wise words there.

Another contributory factor here is that there are so many PREs in Spain. Many belong to the 'everyday man'. He enjoys his horse, rides with his friends, goes to the Feria. Part of the feria-culture is showing the horse off, part of that showing off is display in 'piaffe'.

The horse does not have any classical foundation, nor is this a classical piaffe. Nor does this rider ever think of it as that. It is - for Mr Everyday - simply an exuberant expression of what his horse can do.

(I would hazard the proposition, though, that these horses being marketed on the strength of their apparent piaffes is not usually Mr Everyday's doing.)

 

[abuela]

Morphology is conformation.

PRE in-hand and breed classes in Spain usually have a large number of entrants. The PRE has breed standards particular to the breed.