mle22
Well-Known Member
For people who wear blinkers and can't see how daft the whole thread is.
The PTS society
- Thread starter Devonshire dumpling
- Start date
For people who wear blinkers and can't see how daft the whole thread is.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
"Get rid of it to someone else". What a wonderfully emotive term!
Yes, if a horse is unsound and there is no job for it to do, and I cannot find someone who I trust to take it on as a paddock ornament, then I will put it to sleep.
Perhaps if people had been through the experience that I have been through they would have a different view of how safe it is to rehome unsound horses.
I had a horse with mild lameness due to spavins, who I was DIRECTED by my vet to get him working down off the hills where I live. I sold him for a low sum to a girl in Cambridge, who I had references for and whose immaculate premises I saw in an extensive photographic record. He went with a very tight contract limiting how she could deal with him. She starved him in just 14 weeks to the point where the RSPCA approved finance for a prosecution. When I was alerted to his problems, I went and negotiated his release back into my care. That cost a LOT of money but it was the right thing to do.
I loved that horse to pieces, as does everyone who comes in contact with him, except that one woman. I would sooner see another horse of mine dead than ever see a horse I cared for in this state again:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_IaGqwoQlnmA/RdWayC2aqOI/AAAAAAAAAD0/RiKQEUg0q70/s1600-h/DSCN0793WR.jpg
he had left me 14 weeks before looking like this:
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6682/2311/1600/Tetley 1.2.jpg
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baymareb
Well-Known Member
What an entertaining thread!
My opinion on the original post (does anyone remember the original post?) -
I get that the OP is talking about people who purchase horses when they really can't afford them, then get into a situation where they cannot afford treatment and so put them to sleep. I agree that's a poor way to make decisions and not particularly fair to the horse.
And while I agree that it happens, it's mostly impossible to tell if that's a person's real situation or if they've come upon hard times or what, so it's really not fair to judge unless you know someone personally and are intimately acquainted with their situation.
For me, it all comes down to what's best for the horse at the moment. If - for whatever reason, whether poor judgment or bad luck - someone can't afford to treat their horse, then I'd say the poor thing was probably better off PTS. What are the other options, after all? It's all very well to say it shouldn't happen - it does happen and rather than a horse suffering for lack of treatment, or being sold unsound and probably ending up in a situation as bad or worse, I'd rather see it PTS.
I will comment that I found it odd that the OP said this -
but about ex-racers being sold into questionable homes, said this -
My opinion on the original post (does anyone remember the original post?) -
I get that the OP is talking about people who purchase horses when they really can't afford them, then get into a situation where they cannot afford treatment and so put them to sleep. I agree that's a poor way to make decisions and not particularly fair to the horse.
And while I agree that it happens, it's mostly impossible to tell if that's a person's real situation or if they've come upon hard times or what, so it's really not fair to judge unless you know someone personally and are intimately acquainted with their situation.
For me, it all comes down to what's best for the horse at the moment. If - for whatever reason, whether poor judgment or bad luck - someone can't afford to treat their horse, then I'd say the poor thing was probably better off PTS. What are the other options, after all? It's all very well to say it shouldn't happen - it does happen and rather than a horse suffering for lack of treatment, or being sold unsound and probably ending up in a situation as bad or worse, I'd rather see it PTS.
I will comment that I found it odd that the OP said this -
but about ex-racers being sold into questionable homes, said this -
MissMincePie&Brandy
Well-Known Member
In my humble opinion, I believe that the horse is an animal who lives for the moment. He can't reason, and he doesn't have the ability to predict or plan for the future. It is up to us to care for them correctly, so that they are able to live healthily and are physically and mentally comfortable.
I think that if a horse has no 'use' and if no one is willing to look after him to the correct standard, then humanely being PTS before the horse suffers any form of neglect is not a bad thing to happen.
I think that if a horse has no 'use' and if no one is willing to look after him to the correct standard, then humanely being PTS before the horse suffers any form of neglect is not a bad thing to happen.
joeanne
Well-Known Member
Far better to belong to the "PTS Society" than the "Miserable Trawled Round the Sales Society"
A-Frikkin-Men to that!
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
Far better to belong to the "PTS Society" than the "Miserable Trawled Round the Sales Society"
Better yet to belong to the 'My Owner Does the Best for Me (Not Her) Society'.
S
MissMincePie&Brandy
Well-Known Member
Better yet to belong to the 'My Owner Does the Best for Me (Not Her) Society'.
S
Mine belong to this society
jenki13
Well-Known Member
Oh sorry missed this little tarade. So sorry I don't know your full life story..must try harder to keep up with a busy forum. But you quiet obviously like to play the woe is me card.You got all these horses you are trying now to sell/kill when you had money I take it..therefore did you make provision for the future???? Guessing that's a no. Which was the OP's point originally incase you missed it?
Sympathy for you not having a holiday in 3 years...pah try 10 years sweetie. Sympathy for trying to feed you son...
If you couldn't afford them come what may then you shouldn't have got them in the first place...simple really when you think about it. I can't afford a 5 horse lorry with living and luxury holidays, so guess what? I don't get them.
You made your bed and now your unforunate horses are suffering for it. Greedy selfish people.
Oh and before you pen your witting clever rely don't bother cos opinions of people like you really don't matter so I'll be putting you on ignore..got to love that ignore button.
So, your saying that someone who owns a horse has to be able to predict exactly what's going to happen in the future! I find that pretty laughable to be honest. No one can say they can afford something "come what may" you have no idea what could happen tomorrow.
For example, I had a motorbike accident, I was layed up in hospital for 12 days, I couldn't work properly for months. I got a P/T job for 2hrs twice a week, 4 months after the accident. Those 2 hours exhausted me, because of the injuries I had. I would never have been able to hold down a F/T job & my insurance pay-out?... £900, that's less than 2 months rent in most houses. I was extremely lucky to be back in my old waitressing job after 6 months. Luckily my horse is kept on my families land & is relatively cheap to keep.
However if that had been my Dad in the accident it would have been a whole different story. Yes my parents have savings, but its amazing how quickly those savings get used when you have a mortgage & bills to pay along with car insurance & horse bills. We don't have sky TV, the mobile phones cost £20/month total & ok we could let go of the internet I think that's about £120/yr.. If we had to sell the house I'd almost certainly have to sell the horse.. It would cost too much in travelling to keep her. Also if she injured herself landing us with a 15K vet bill in that time then no we wouldn't be able to afford it..
Could we foresee that accident. No. I'd ridden that road countless times going to work everyday & going to the local town to see friends etc. We couldn't foresee that one day that back wheel would skid & even at just 30mph there's no way the bike could be regained. Sorry but I'll just go try & sell my 13yr old mare, that hasn't got a proven competition record because I can't foresee Every eventuality
Spudlet
Well-Known Member
How about the 'We do really quite like horses and therefore will do the best we can by them, not ruling out the possibility that this may include euthanasia due to illness, injury, severe and insurmountable behavioural difficulty, change of personal circumstances or some other unforseeable event, and we will certainly not be passing them on unless we know full well, insomuch as it is ever possible to know, that we are not sending them into the downward welfare spiral' society?
Quite large badges needed for that one
Quite large badges needed for that one
jenki13
Well-Known Member
How about the 'We do really quite like horses and therefore will do the best we can by them, not ruling out the possibility that this may include euthanasia due to illness, injury, severe and insurmountable behavioural difficulty, change of personal circumstances or some other unforseeable event, and we will certainly not be passing them on unless we know full well, insomuch as it is ever possible to know, that we are not sending them into the downward welfare spiral' society?
Quite large badges needed for that one
^^
I'll join this one. Maybe we should just get t-shirts? Easier to fit it all on
DragonSlayer
Well-Known Member
How about the 'We do really quite like horses and therefore will do the best we can by them, not ruling out the possibility that this may include euthanasia due to illness, injury, severe and insurmountable behavioural difficulty, change of personal circumstances or some other unforseeable event, and we will certainly not be passing them on unless we know full well, insomuch as it is ever possible to know, that we are not sending them into the downward welfare spiral' society?
Quite large badges needed for that one
Can I join this one please?
Wagtail
Horse servant
Wow, that is awful! No, I have never had such an experience but then I have never actually sold a horse in 30 years of owning them. They have been PTS for humane reasons or loaned. I did give one horse away - to my sister.
Maybe it was the wording of your original post that irked me when you said that you would put a horse to sleep (if you couldn't find a good home) because you could not ride it to the level you wanted. But despite that awful experience you had, you would still try to rehome first? Yes? Which mans you must think that PTS is worse for the horse than the risk of the new home not being all it's cracked up to be.
MissMincePie&Brandy
Well-Known Member
How about the 'We do really quite like horses and therefore will do the best we can by them, not ruling out the possibility that this may include euthanasia due to illness, injury, severe and insurmountable behavioural difficulty, change of personal circumstances or some other unforseeable event, and we will certainly not be passing them on unless we know full well, insomuch as it is ever possible to know, that we are not sending them into the downward welfare spiral' society?
Quite large badges needed for that one
oh, mine are definitely in this one
DragonSlayer
Well-Known Member
So, your saying that someone who owns a horse has to be able to predict exactly what's going to happen in the future! I find that pretty laughable to be honest. No one can say they can afford something "come what may" you have no idea what could happen tomorrow.
For example, I had a motorbike accident, I was layed up in hospital for 12 days, I couldn't work properly for months. I got a P/T job for 2hrs twice a week, 4 months after the accident. Those 2 hours exhausted me, because of the injuries I had. I would never have been able to hold down a F/T job & my insurance pay-out?... £900, that's less than 2 months rent in most houses. I was extremely lucky to be back in my old waitressing job after 6 months. Luckily my horse is kept on my families land & is relatively cheap to keep.
However if that had been my Dad in the accident it would have been a whole different story. Yes my parents have savings, but its amazing how quickly those savings get used when you have a mortgage & bills to pay along with car insurance & horse bills. We don't have sky TV, the mobile phones cost £20/month total & ok we could let go of the internet I think that's about £120/yr.. If we had to sell the house I'd almost certainly have to sell the horse.. It would cost too much in travelling to keep her. Also if she injured herself landing us with a 15K vet bill in that time then no we wouldn't be able to afford it..
Could we foresee that accident. No. I'd ridden that road countless times going to work everyday & going to the local town to see friends etc. We couldn't foresee that one day that back wheel would skid & even at just 30mph there's no way the bike could be regained. Sorry but I'll just go try & sell my 13yr old mare, that hasn't got a proven competition record because I can't foresee Every eventuality
I'd say, bad on you for daring to have the accident in the first place!
I guess none of us should have any animal at all if we just can't see what is around the corner and see into the future....
mymare
Well-Known Member
How about the 'We do really quite like horses and therefore will do the best we can by them, not ruling out the possibility that this may include euthanasia due to illness, injury, severe and insurmountable behavioural difficulty, change of personal circumstances or some other unforseeable event, and we will certainly not be passing them on unless we know full well, insomuch as it is ever possible to know, that we are not sending them into the downward welfare spiral' society?
Quite large badges needed for that one
Where do I sign up?
Echo Bravo
Well-Known Member
Cptrayes and JSR. I really do think you both have to sit back and look how vitrol your posts have gotten towards other posters. I did read the oringinal post several times, trying to understand what they were trying to say, very obscure indeed or I'm getting dimwitted with old age. Several people have given honest answers to the post and know which they hadn't.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
I'm happy with everything I wrote thankyou Echo Bravo. It's a bit much to link me with JSR though! Please feel free to put me on ignore, anyone who does not like what I write.
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mle22
Well-Known Member
How about the 'We do really quite like horses and therefore will do the best we can by them, not ruling out the possibility that this may include euthanasia due to illness, injury, severe and insurmountable behavioural difficulty, change of personal circumstances or some other unforseeable event, and we will certainly not be passing them on unless we know full well, insomuch as it is ever possible to know, that we are not sending them into the downward welfare spiral' society?
Quite large badges needed for that one
I'll join this one too
cbmcts
Well-Known Member
How about the 'We do really quite like horses and therefore will do the best we can by them, not ruling out the possibility that this may include euthanasia due to illness, injury, severe and insurmountable behavioural difficulty, change of personal circumstances or some other unforseeable event, and we will certainly not be passing them on unless we know full well, insomuch as it is ever possible to know, that we are not sending them into the downward welfare spiral' society?
Quite large badges needed for that one
I like it
As I understand the OP - it is infuriating when people get horses without having the plans and (realistic) funds. As we all know, it's not just the livery money that needs to be found every week...I think that is irresponsible to say the least.
But that attitude spreads to every part of their life - think of all the people who live on credit, buying everything they WANT rather than what they can afford - the difference is that animals suffer when the house of (credit) cards collapses unlike goods which are inanimate and get sold, repoed or whatever.
However, I disagree with the OP that PTS is the worse option in these circumstances. If you have an animals with issues, expensive or otherwise and you cannot or do not want to deal with it, why on earth do you think that anyone else will want it? It's not as if average horses are a rare or valuable commodity at the moment, nor can they be stored without cost until someones situation improves. If it is a good 'useful' horse it has a value to the next owner and as such has a reasonable chance of a good home. If it's not - well, I always think of Spindles Farm...most of those poor souls were in private homes at some point in their miserable lives.
I have 2 retired horses, one through injury and age (who I bought at 16 yo) and one 15yo who I've owned since weaning. The 15yo is physically healthy but very nervous and can be dangerous when frightened or the handler isn't confident. I don't know how many times I've been told to 'get rid' - and tbh it has been tempting at times - but he is going nowhere. I know full well that there are better and braver riders than me out there who could probably get a good tune out of him but realistically, why would they want him? There are much easier, better horses that cost exactly the same to keep, are more fun to handle and ride. The chances of him finding the 1 in a 1000 home that would love him are too slim for me to risk his future in the other 999. Call me arrogant if you wish but I think too much of him to consign him to such an uncertain future if my circumstances change.
I have held apparently healthy horses to be shot before now but I firmly believe that securing their future is more important than taking a chance.
Queenbee
Well-Known Member
Ok, so we all know a perfect world would be great, we would live in a society where all horse owners had oodles (I love that word!) of cash to spare, and would be able and willing to use said cash on any vets bills that their horse incurred (but in a 'perfect' world, there would be no need for vets bills).
Problem is that we are never ever going to have said perfect world, so on that basis DD if someone had a horse with a condition that was going to prove very costly to treat and they couldn't necessarily afford the fees what would you have them do, give away to someone who says they will treat the horse or PTS? Are they in fact being responsible by PTS, they know what they are able to do and what they are not, they make a judgement call, perhaps it is not in line with yours, but they are using their judgement.
Also, its a bit like saying that you shouldn't get a mortgage to buy a house, you should only buy a house if you can buy it outright with cash because you may lose your job and then not be able to make your mortgage payments.
rubysmum
Well-Known Member
I think I get what the OP is getting at. A few years ago a woman bought herself a very nice TB despite knowing she was going to struggle financially when she bought it. She bought him in the spring so had him on grass livery and was able to save up for a couple of second hand rugs. His vaccinations were due but she couldnt afford the vet so let them slide and the same with worming although she did do him sporadically so better than nothing. When he cut his leg open she couldn't afford the vet so treated it herself, sadly it ws a nasty wound needed stitches and it got infected. The YO (farmer who just rented the field out and didn't have anything to do with it) spotted him a few days later and paid for him to be pts and taken away after she once again refused to have the vet out because she didn't have the money
i think there is a massive difference between someone who REALLY cant afford even the basic running costs of their horse and someone like myself who manages [ by careful budgetting] to cover all they day to day costs BUT would struggle to find an additional 2 grand plus if medical care went beyond my 5 grand insurance - i insure my horse to ensure that she can have a large amount of money spent on medical care BUT am not prepared to destroy my savings [ meant for total family emergencies] & perhaps stop my daughter going to uni - in my world no animal is worth that
Queenbee
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by mle22
Good grief people! Maybe we could discuss the ethcs of paying out thousands of pounds to keep crippled animals as 'field ornaments' while millions of people are starving to death?
Completely irrelevant. This is a horse forum, not a foreign aid forum.
I vote for world peace
Good grief people! Maybe we could discuss the ethcs of paying out thousands of pounds to keep crippled animals as 'field ornaments' while millions of people are starving to death?
Completely irrelevant. This is a horse forum, not a foreign aid forum.
I vote for world peace
Queenbee
Well-Known Member
Now that i've seen the light and I can't afford the gazzilion pounds bills that may or may not be around the corner, have dumped the Jackass (see signature) and decided I shouldn't have horses... far better to have shoes and handbags (costs less to fix/replace them). What should I do? Sell at sales/give away/PTS
Flame_
Well-Known Member
This is pretty much where I'm coming from and I'd love to see a decent answer. I've still got a happy 31 year old and 28 year old, both retired for over ten years with "pet status".
I've since had two much younger horses PTS because they couldn't be ridden. Should I be wracked with guilt? If so, why, when we've near enough agreed its not cruel to the horses to pts, certainly no crueler than it is to a lamb who is about to become someone's dinner? Do people just not like that people can be so emotionally detached from their horses that they can be ok with having them killed when they can't work? Is it that the horse will miss out on years of its natural life? Again, this happens to farm animals all the time, so why is it a moral problem with horses but not cows?
Holly Hocks
Well-Known Member
I haven't read the whole load of replies as it's now up to 24 pages, but to an extent I do agree with the OP. I think people see horses in different ways. To me, they are my life. They are the reason I get up in a morning and they give me purpose in life. I work to pay for them, so whatever they need, they get, and I will go without things to pay for them. But I do understand that to professional riders and trainers, they are a commodity, and not pets. But then the other half of me says that if the horse is a commodity and only there to make money, then maybe the owner/trainer should go into a job which doesn't involve ending a life at the end of it and make money by other means.
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
I understand your point of view, but personally believe that my horses have as much right to a happy life as I have, so I try to provide one.
I dislike the idea that any animal is 'disposable', although I know that they are considered so.
S
Echo Bravo
Well-Known Member
I think that posters are starting to go round and round in circles over this as we each have our own ideas of keeping and looking and loving their horses. I'm lucky as I own my own property and yard and have had several over upteem years that I've had pts at home. Not everyone has that option and if they couldn't find a 2nd home for said horse and they knew it would keep going downwards in the horse market then pts. As I've said I'm one of the lucky ones, so my oldies or cripples etc, I can keep, until the time they go, I've only had one horse die on and he was 11 years old with a heart attack, the others, 1 in her late teens, 3 in their mid twenties and 1 36 years old. Those that don't have their own property have to do livery,which most of us know can be expensive, if they have their horse pts, because they know they cann't afford for it to be paddock chewer for it's natural life well for one I wouldn't blame them, as they are doing their best for THEIR animal
councillor
Well-Known Member
"I then decided after the sad day came when he kidneys were affected to have him PTS and couldn't afford to do that again with another horse."
What changed after you had to have him PTS to make you decide you could not afford to have another horse. If it were a change in circumstances financially, what would you have done if you still had your horse, but your new circumstances led you to be in a position where you could no longer afford to go over and beyond you insurance limit?
Perhaps you are right that if you can't afford day to care of a horse, then you shouldn't buy one. But I feel insurance is part of the day to day care, it is in place to cover such problems. But I really do think you are being way to idealistic to think you can prepare for every eventuality. I feel if you can comfortably afford your premium then you are being more than fair in preparing for your horses emergency care.
" I can't help but think sometimes horses are put down because of financial reasons and if you didn't buy this horse in the first place, someone with lots of money may have bought them and they would not have been PTS...."
To suggest that someone who has more money than me would make a better life for my horses is a dam right insult.
This is the points that have made me feel a little irked by the OP's attitude.
As for my Pony who is very lame and not responding to treatment. I don't own him, he is on loan to me....from someone who has way more money than me, and who so far has not given a penny towards his treatment. In the last two years I have spent £6000 on him and I have nothing left....but still the better off owners do nothing....I have no idea what I can do now, but if he goes back he will get PTS and that makes me angry. Having money doesn't make you a better owner, having the heart to do your best, that does.
What changed after you had to have him PTS to make you decide you could not afford to have another horse. If it were a change in circumstances financially, what would you have done if you still had your horse, but your new circumstances led you to be in a position where you could no longer afford to go over and beyond you insurance limit?
Perhaps you are right that if you can't afford day to care of a horse, then you shouldn't buy one. But I feel insurance is part of the day to day care, it is in place to cover such problems. But I really do think you are being way to idealistic to think you can prepare for every eventuality. I feel if you can comfortably afford your premium then you are being more than fair in preparing for your horses emergency care.
" I can't help but think sometimes horses are put down because of financial reasons and if you didn't buy this horse in the first place, someone with lots of money may have bought them and they would not have been PTS...."
To suggest that someone who has more money than me would make a better life for my horses is a dam right insult.
This is the points that have made me feel a little irked by the OP's attitude.
As for my Pony who is very lame and not responding to treatment. I don't own him, he is on loan to me....from someone who has way more money than me, and who so far has not given a penny towards his treatment. In the last two years I have spent £6000 on him and I have nothing left....but still the better off owners do nothing....I have no idea what I can do now, but if he goes back he will get PTS and that makes me angry. Having money doesn't make you a better owner, having the heart to do your best, that does.
Echo Bravo
Well-Known Member
Councillor. I don't think most of us think because you have money, 1) You don't care, 2) You would buy a sick or derange horse to give it a life, I think that was the orginal post. And the post like Topsy has grown. You love your loan pony and have paid alot of money out for him. I once had a lovely old cob on permant loan, his owner would turn up every so often to ride and leave him still tacked up for me to sort out (she had a horse allergy?). We had him for over 3 years, we paid for everything except his insurance as that was in her name. He went down with laminitas badly,vet wanted to put him down, she said No, kept him going for another 2 weeks, and he was in agony,then she said yes, she wanted him to be either buried or cremated, till she was told the price. So we got local hunt out, pts within 2 hours. Guess who had to foot the bill. Loaning maybe a good thing within some people but I would never do it again and at the end of it it is the owner who has the final say. And she had let the insurance lapse
Natch
Well-Known Member
Its a moral problem to me personally because my horses are pets - they're not just for ridden life
I accept, but am not really comfortable with people PTS a pain free but unable to be worked horse, if they've been a person's own horse and not a business. That's probably because I extend my own feelings about what my horses mean to me onto other people, but I do realise that othes feel differently, and indeed that everyone's circumstances are unique.
I hope never to have to be in the position to make a decision about a healthy animal's life on the basis of money.
I haven't really read the last 20(!) pages, but if I'm missing a point here do excuse me, I haven't been to bed yet
