The PTS society

Naturally said:
Unfortunately I think this is in an ideal world, and we don't live in that one at the moment. :( The racehorse rehab charities do a brilliant job but don't have nearly enough resources to take on any reasonable percentage of the horses who come out of racing. The amount of people who have the skill, knowledge and finance to take on an ex-racer and turn it around into a decent "other" riding horse are few, can only take so many horses, and let's face it, they aren't everyone's cup of tea anyway.

That leaves Jo Bloggs down the road who thinks they might have enough knowledge and just about have enough money to meet its basic needs, and then we're back to the situation in the original post about taking on horses when you don't have the money (or skill, knowledge, help etc).
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Yes I agree! Then we go down other routes of arguing about being too many horses around and too many horses disposible after they have done their job..... a whole new debate.. I sound like I am on question time!
 
Devonshire dumpling said:
Valid point! But I feel very differently from farm animals and pets, I would happily eat horse if it was bred for that purpose. But then I strongly disagree with farmers not treating their animals when the vet is needed, i feel this thread is going a bit down the wrong route
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Yet you criticise the race horse trainer for putting down horses not up to the job. His business is producing a winning racehorse - not a pet.
 
joeanne said:
DD....I have concluded....you are quite frankly barking!
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I could have told you that way before the beginning of this thread :D One in a million me!!

Maybe I am painting myself as whiter than white because I choose not to have another horse until I have lots of spare cash?

I would love another horse, I miss it so much, am I self righteous then?

Do I think I am better than you all because I think we should be financially sound before we have a very expensive pet?
 
Just to add more fuel to the fire - so what do YOU consider enough money as a back up? So both my horses are insured for vets fees. Now my old mare is only covered for external injuries being 22 but on thinking about it, that was a mute point pretty much as I woudn't put her through a major surgery even if money was no issue. My youngster is covered upto £5K. So just how much money should be put aside as a back up on that?
 
Let you into a little secret shall I......I have financed my vets new car this year I think.....and guess what....it was the bl**dy DOGS, not the horses that caused that!
Should I not have dogs either then?
 
Devonshire dumpling said:
I don't want to go down the whole racehorse cruel sport debate, this is why i didn't get drawn into it!
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But the differences between you and I having our 'pets' and the trainer/producer/competitor who has their horse for 'business' are very different sides of the same coin.

You can't state that trainers are 'up their own arses' for sending 'no gooder's' to slaughter, yet happily accept the farmer sending his stock to the same place......

Business / Leisure. Two very different industries - so when debating, you need to decide what your debating, and the aims of your debate.......
 
Devonshire dumpling said:
you are going off track..................... passing horses on is a different subject! I too see abuse in my job, it aint pretty! I am fed up with ppl having animals because they want a nice life themselves, but can't afford treatment when the worst happens, i think you should plan for the worst and see if you can afford it
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But in some cases you really can't plan for the worst. A SIMPLE colic surgery costs in the region of £5000, this rises exponentially the moment you hit problems. Alot of veteran insurance policies don't cover colic, and even policies that do usually have £5000 limits. I am very lucky in that over 5 years of vet school I have managed to save a reasonable amount, so I could pay for even a complicated colic surgery or fracture repair. But not everyone is lucky enough to have thousands of pounds sitting in a bank account 'just in case'. It is truly heartbreaking when we have horses referred to uni for colic or other things and the owners desperately want to save their horse, but just can't afford however many thousands. Imagine if the only people who owned horses were those with £5000 put away for every horse they owned? That would be a hell of a lot of horses wandering round ownerless!

In small animals I think it is slightly different, simply because on the whole bills are not as huge, and I agree in that I get annoyed too when owners quibble about paying £200-300 bills - I recently saw a dog with a fracture that should have been repaired by surgery but the owner point blank refused to pay, they even complained about the cost of casting the limb even though the vet was already giving them a significant discount just to get the poor dog treated.

I don't think you can plan for every eventuality, especially when horses think of such inventive and expensive ways to injure themselves. My only thing is that I don't think people should place their animals at extra risk if they know they can't afford it - by this I mainly mean those who breed (dogs and horses) and then turn around and say 'oh, i can't afford the caesarian'. Having seen more than one mare shot because the foal was too big to be delived naturally, I find this a complete waste of life - every pregnancy has a risk of problems, if you put your mare in foal, you need to be able to pay for those complications!
 
I think you are very idealistic....and narrow minded. When I first got my horse's I was in the lovely position you are probably in, far from loaded, but comfortable and paying for what they need was not a problem....now I am not.
I have a very sick pony, I don't have the money to pay for his treatment, his insurance paid out on the same thing last year and now will not cover it. I am talking thousands here, I can't risk putting myself in a huge amount of debt with the vet. I love my little man, deeply, but I have a family and a mortgage and that is my priority. He is under vet treatment before anyone jumps in on that...its the very expensive travelling and operation I can't afford.
So all those years ago, when I comfortably ran my horse and my daughters pony in a lovely yard on part livery I should have said "oh well I better not as I may not be able to spend thousands they may need in a few years time" I shall take up knitting instead.
You don't know the full history of some of those people who are questioning the time to PTS as they have no money for treatment.
If you put yourself on the moral high ground prepare to have mud slung at you.
 
joeanne said:
Let you into a little secret shall I......I have financed my vets new car this year I think.....and guess what....it was the bl**dy DOGS, not the horses that caused that!
Should I not have dogs either then?
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Yes you should have dogs as you paid for their treatment! Welldone!

But i see people daily who can't pay for their dog/cat bills, they shouldn't have pets!!
 
People shouldn't be taking on animals in the knowledge that they might have issues with big bills, but at the same time people's circumstances can change in a heartbeat, through redundancy, illness or injury. And even with insurance in place, that reserve of cash can be burnt out very quickly indeed, and when it's gone, what do you do? If it comes down to the bill or a roof over your family's head, what do you choose? If you were managing ok, then something completely unexpected happened and before you know it that insurance limit has been reached, what do you do?

So no, passing on horses is not going off track, because you could shut your eyes very tightly and pass that horse on and tell yourself that it's all going to end happily ever after... but you'd be taking an awful risk, and if it went wrong the one to suffer would be the horse. Sell it? With a health problem? In this market? I think not. And it's too late at that point to say 'well you shouldn't have had it!' because rightly or wrongly, you are in that situation there and then, and you have to deal with the real world, not the world as it ought to be.
 
I think it totally depends on each situation, i personnally would rather have PTS if i now came into financial issues, knowing my boy needs too much care - and someone may not be able to give him what he needs.. in that case i would rather PTS than re-home.
 
Devonshire dumpling said:
But i see people daily who can't pay for their dog/cat bills, they shouldn't have pets!!
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Ok...."theorised case study"
Old lady, had her little yorkie years, now retired, can no longer afford big bills for her little dog.
Little dog needs an operation. Old lady either has to PTS or come to an arrangement to pay installments to the vet.
Is she wrong to have her dog?
Its really not that simple huh!

I think you are FAR to judgemental DD......
 
councillor said:
I think you are very idealistic....and narrow minded. When I first got my horse's I was in the lovely position you are probably in, far from loaded, but comfortable and paying for what they need was not a problem....now I am not.
I have a very sick pony, I don't have the money to pay for his treatment, his insurance paid out on the same thing last year and now will not cover it. I am talking thousands here, I can't risk putting myself in a huge amount of debt with the vet. I love my little man, deeply, but I have a family and a mortgage and that is my priority. He is under vet treatment before anyone jumps in on that...its the very expensive travelling and operation I can't afford.
So all those years ago, when I comfortably ran my horse and my daughters pony in a lovely yard on part livery I should have said "oh well I better not as I may not be able to spend thousands they may need in a few years time" I shall take up knitting instead.
You don't know the full history of some of those people who are questioning the time to PTS as they have no money for treatment.
If you put yourself on the moral high ground prepare to have mud slung at you.
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If you read carefully I stated not ppl whose circumstances change! I said people who go into the whole buying a horse on a budget milarky and don't budget for illness! So if you are going to call me narrow minded and start with the insults please take the time to read every comment I have made, as usual this has gone to the dogs with the opinions of ppl on here, so will say no more on the matter, i have explained what I think in detail.
 
Luci07 said:
Just to add more fuel to the fire - so what do YOU consider enough money as a back up? So both my horses are insured for vets fees. Now my old mare is only covered for external injuries being 22 but on thinking about it, that was a mute point pretty much as I woudn't put her through a major surgery even if money was no issue. My youngster is covered upto £5K. So just how much money should be put aside as a back up on that?
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I think you need to make sure you have savings or in a position to get your hands on money, not on a completly right budget and relying on insurance alone, because insurance will often get out of paying money if they can anyway! IE a regular income were every penny you have coming in isnt accounted for.
 
No No no DD you stated that people who struggle to pay vets bills and have said animal PTS are in your opinion not fit to own a horse.
Dont move the goal posts because your argument is not going the route you want it to!
 
Spudlet said:
I would sooner see a horse PTS that passed on and on and on in a downward spiral, because I have seen the bottom of that spiral and it ain't pretty. I've no wish to see horses shot. But I would rather that than see some of the other stuff I've seen - and still see, some nights when I'm asleep.

Horses are kept safe from harm because they have financial value, and sentimental value. Sadly, an unrideable horse with ongoing health or behavioural problems has little financial value, and unless it's your horse, that you love, it has little sentimental value either, at least not to anyone else. So what keeps those horses safe when they're given away? You are really shoving them out there into the cold. When you take on an animal, you take on the responsibility to keep it safe and protect it from harm, to the best of your ability, for the rest of its life. That means you feed it, and water it, and care for it, and make it well when it's sick, and if you can't do that any more you find it a good and trusted home, and if you can't do that, you face the fact that actually, death is not the worst fate that animal can suffer. And you cry your tears and you live with the guilt, because that is the deal. That's the bargain. They give us everything, and they ask for so little in return - but part of our half of the bargain is a peaceful ending, without fear or pain.

And I'm sorry if people don't like it. I'm sorry if people think I'm a horse killing psycho. But I will carry on saying what I do, because I believe it to be right.
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So true.
If you look at the racehorse rehoming websites they often have a waiting list for taking on new horses, as it can take a long time to find suitable homes for ones they are trying to rehome. Thats, AFTER lots of re training, vet input, farriery etc. And they take on the horses they feel have a good chance of being rehomed.
Also, how many horses would suffer by simply not being able to winter without rugs and shelter in the wrong hands, never mind adequate feed, and knowledgeable care.
 
Murphy88 said:
But in some cases you really can't plan for the worst. A SIMPLE colic surgery costs in the region of £5000, this rises exponentially the moment you hit problems. Alot of veteran insurance policies don't cover colic, and even policies that do usually have £5000 limits. I am very lucky in that over 5 years of vet school I have managed to save a reasonable amount, so I could pay for even a complicated colic surgery or fracture repair. But not everyone is lucky enough to have thousands of pounds sitting in a bank account 'just in case'. It is truly heartbreaking when we have horses referred to uni for colic or other things and the owners desperately want to save their horse, but just can't afford however many thousands. Imagine if the only people who owned horses were those with £5000 put away for every horse they owned? That would be a hell of a lot of horses wandering round ownerless!

In small animals I think it is slightly different, simply because on the whole bills are not as huge, and I agree in that I get annoyed too when owners quibble about paying £200-300 bills - I recently saw a dog with a fracture that should have been repaired by surgery but the owner point blank refused to pay, they even complained about the cost of casting the limb even though the vet was already giving them a significant discount just to get the poor dog treated.

I don't think you can plan for every eventuality, especially when horses think of such inventive and expensive ways to injure themselves. My only thing is that I don't think people should place their animals at extra risk if they know they can't afford it - by this I mainly mean those who breed (dogs and horses) and then turn around and say 'oh, i can't afford the caesarian'. Having seen more than one mare shot because the foal was too big to be delived naturally, I find this a complete waste of life - every pregnancy has a risk of problems, if you put your mare in foal, you need to be able to pay for those complications!
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I do agree with you completely!!!! ALot of practices allow a payment plan, but some of these people can't even afford an extra £20 a week on top of insurance etc, this is my point
 
Devonshire dumpling said:
Valid point! But I feel very differently from farm animals and pets, I would happily eat horse if it was bred for that purpose. But then I strongly disagree with farmers not treating their animals when the vet is needed,
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How does how you feel make any difference to the animals? Either killing healthy animals is cruel or it isn't. I believe it isn't, as long as its done properly and the animal is kept relaxed and comfortable up to the end. It makes not one iota of difference to the animal if there is someone outside crying about it, what it was bred for, if its going to be eaten or not, if its facing a big vet bill or not, etc, etc. All the animal cares about is that its needs are being met (so I agree with you that farmers - and all animal owners - should get the vet when needed) and if suddenly it is dead, how is that a problem, apart from you would miss your friend if the animal happened to be your pet?

I think you are viewing horses purely as pets and basing your objections on emotions and sentimentality.
 
joeanne said:
No No no DD you stated that people who struggle to pay vets bills and have said animal PTS are in your opinion not fit to own a horse.
Dont move the goal posts because your argument is not going the route you want it to![/QUOTE

I didn't put it so harshly as aren't fit to own the horse! But no I think you should be finacially sound before you own a horse, its your duty as an owner... they didn't ask to be owned by someone who can't put a rightable illness right!
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I agree with what you said OP. I currently have a 16.2 IDxTB who is a field ornament at livery and costs alot to keep due to his problems. However at present he loves his life and is always happy. I cannot afford another horse whilst still having him but he has served me well for 12years so deserves a nice retirement. Therefore I put an advert up looking to share and have totally fallen on my feet, now riding a gorgeous ex racer and owner didnt even want a contribution towards him, so now with my spare cash i spoil them both!!
 
Flame_ said:
How does how you feel make any difference to the animals? Either killing healthy animals is cruel or it isn't. I believe it isn't, as long as its done properly and the animal is kept relaxed and comfortable up to the end. It makes not one iota of difference to the animal if there is someone outside crying about it, what it was bred for, if its going to be eaten or not, if its facing a big vet bill or not, etc, etc. All the animal cares about is that its needs are being met (so I agree with you that farmers - and all animal owners - should get the vet when needed) and if suddenly it is dead, how is that a problem, apart from you would miss your friend if the animal happened to be your pet?

I think you are viewing horses purely as pets and basing your objections on emotions and sentimentality.
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I think you have hit the nail on the head!!!!

This is why I am not agreeing with people isnt it? I think of horses as family pets and alot of people think of them as having a job! I am a horse for life kinda owner!

Makes it all clearer now, thanks
 
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