The PTS society

horserider said:
I think you have a valid point. Your criticism is of people who go into horse ownership irresponsibly without thinking about the real cost of ownership and then when the going gets tough decide to have it PTS.

So often on here, posters seem to jump on the PTS bandwagon too easily. Is it right to have a horse PTS because its no longer rideable but could live quite happily in retirement but the owner wants something to ride ? Its not difficult to find a ride on someone else's horse while keeping their own in retirement.
Is it ok to have a 'quirky' horse PTS because it needs a competent rider ? It may not be easy to match the horse to a new home, but surely worth time spent trying rather than reaching for the bullet as a first option ?

Why do some owners think no one else can ever give as good or better, a home to a less than perfect horse ? How often have horses been more settled and better rides with a new owner that they clicked with ?

Selling, even the most perfect horse is a gamble. Once the deal is done, its future is no longer guaranteed, but responsible sellers do their best, stating a good home is more important than money.

I'm not saying never put a horse down, but its not a decision to be taken before all other options have been explored, but time and time again on this forum, my impression has been that the immediate response from some posters is PTS, without thought for the value of the horses life and exploring alternative solutions.
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Thankyou, you have taken the time to read carefully and understand where I was coming from x
 
Devonshire dumpling said:
You are trying to prove a point ! If you can get your hands on loans and extra money then imo you are financially sound. Someone who can't get their hands on money because they are stretched to their limit financially and refuse credit cards, and loans because they are maxed out, I would think daft to buy a horse, there is no set fee! Also while we are on the subject I think everyone will have a reasonable amount in their head, I mean if it cost £15k to get a horse right then you really to have to question the treatment! I am talking reasonable amounts of money to say get your horse fit and well if treatable some people can't even afford £1k to spend on their horse!
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Yes I am trying to prove a point. In my mind, paying a rather large sum of insurance each month is so I don't HAVE to worry about what would happen if I was hit with a hefty vets bill and I don't give it another moments thought but you seem to suggest a 15K would be unreasonable but would that mean that say, 10K be OK?

I totally understand the original meaning behind the post, i.e when taking on a horse, you need to ensure you are covered for most eventualities but its trying to work out just how far you need to go which is not clear here.

There is another side here. I would personally, not choose to put a much older animal through a big surgery buts that my opinion and choice as I have seen how much surgery can really knock a healthy young horse for 6.

I choose not to insure my dogs as the premiums on 2 staffies are extremely high. I do, however, have back up for them if they did become ill and don't have a problem paying for their standard yearly vets fees and treatments. However, with my dogs, a major op would be around the £2K mark and nothing like a horses (and the quote for 2 staffies were nearly as much as my equine insurance for 2 horses with NFU)
 
What about when peoples circumstances change then? When they did have money and then dont? Are they selfish for having their horses pts?
 
I have read your first post twice as I wasn't sure I understood what you were saying! I had a horse very similar to yours for 14 years. He was retired due to unsoundness and then kept as a pet until he developed internal tumours. This was my personal choice as I couldn't have him put down while he was still happy and I couldn't afford another at the same time so I accepted the situation. I can understand that some people feel horses have a job and if they can't do the job then they need to either be fixed at whatever expense or PTS. The people I despise are the ones who will not take responsibility either way and try and pass the horse on 'free' or through sales so they don't have to make the call. I worked in an equine vets and soon came to realise that PTS was not the worst thing that could happen to a horse. Some of the neglect cases we saw made me sick to the stomach.
 
Vizslak said:
What about when peoples circumstances change then? When they did have money and then dont? Are they selfish for having their horses pts?
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Its a hard one, and why I havent brought it into the discussion..... I have no right to judge someone who had enough money to buy a horse then the curcumstances change.

As for the other point about how much is right to spend on a horse, it would depend on guaranteed cure, how much pain you would put the animal through to acheive it, humanity etc... so I can't put a price on a scenerio can I !!

If it cost 15k to put a horse through 4 yrs of ops and suffering, then no i don't think thats fair!

If its 7k for emergency treatment for something acute then yes i would like to think i would fork it out, but again maybe not ona geriatric, you have to weigh up every detail.
 
Devonshire dumpling said:
Thats pretty selfish imo, ppl are so up their own arses they assume know one else could look after horses, alot of ppl do look after horses well, including ex racers, why pts incase its not looked after properly, I am sure the horse would use life and see what happens...
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I think that's a pretty selfish response DD. Why run the risk of the horse going in a downward spiral at all when it's in the owner's power to stop that straightaway? I think your response to that is flawed and very immature.

Naturally said:
Agree. Mostly. :p I think PTS is a good option for some situations.

I think in general the economy had such a high that everyone thought they could own a horse, then when the recession hit stuff hit the fan and maybe not everybody's attitudes are revised yet that money doesn't grow on trees.
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Have to agree with this. So many who were comfortably off have been made redundant and so on through no fault of their own and when you love something, you don't want to let it go, you'll hang on in the hope that another job will turn up. I don't blame them at all for trying to hang on if it is a healthy horse but if it has long term expensive problems then I'd far rather they were realistic and put down rather than send to a market as it's the fair and responsible thing to do for the animal.

joeanne said:
Selfish or responsible?
Tb's are the ones who sadly seem to suffer the most as the by product of racing. Supply far exceeds the demand and as such many end up in the sales.
For me personally, I feel the ones who are PTS rather than sent to the sales ring are the lucky ones!
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Agree with you.
 
Happy Horse said:
I have read your first post twice as I wasn't sure I understood what you were saying! I had a horse very similar to yours for 14 years. He was retired due to unsoundness and then kept as a pet until he developed internal tumours. This was my personal choice as I couldn't have him put down while he was still happy and I couldn't afford another at the same time so I accepted the situation. I can understand that some people feel horses have a job and if they can't do the job then they need to either be fixed at whatever expense or PTS. The people I despise are the ones who will not take responsibility either way and try and pass the horse on 'free' or through sales so they don't have to make the call. I worked in an equine vets and soon came to realise that PTS was not the worst thing that could happen to a horse. Some of the neglect cases we saw made me sick to the stomach.
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Yes I can imagine!!... Where I ride they have a shetland with one testicle, she paid £900 to have the surgery, the vets were shocked and said most ppl would chose pts...............
 
Never twisted her point, just pointing out sh~t happens, and to think you can make some contingency plan for all eventualities is dreaming.
I got my reality check when my husbands work dried up and I had two kids, two horses and a big house to keep paying for.
 
I am afraid i now have to go and pick my car up from its MOT, I decided to pay for its treatment and see it through, I don't love it that much, but it serves a purpose to me... I also need a shower before I go and see the tasty mechanics, so I will leave you all here to argue amongst yourselves. good byeeeeeeeeeeee
 
Well I'm glad you don't think I'm selfish then. I sort of get where you are coming from, I actually feel that I wouldnt ever have another horse even when/if I can afford again, incase life bites me in the arse again in the future. This of course though is totally ridiculous, nobody would ever own horses if everyone thought like that. We don't have crystal balls, things can and do change very quickly for the better or worse and anything can happen to anyone. We cant all go through life trying to predict the future.
I had 2 pts last August because I could no longer care for them (both retired) after my circumstances changed. In November my dog was very ill and spent 4 days in a coma...he's still here, it cost me £1200 and god knows where I found it but I did. So I do get your point, although I think the communication of it in the OP could have been worded a bit better!
 
Devonshire dumpling said:
I don't personally own a horse anymore because although I could afford to keep it, shoe it, feed it etc, I couldn't afford any massive vet bills, ie going beyond insurance..............

Alot of people choose to keep and struggle with money (not talking about circumstances changing like loss of a job) but ppl actively go and buy a horse when they are struggling with finance, and often see a serious condition (treatable) arise and are advised to have the horse PTS or come to that conclusion themselves.

I personally had a very expensive horse who I kept as a pet at livery for 6 yrs rather than have him put down ( he was unridable with a heart condition) but was happy as a field ornament on heart meds etc (16.2hh TB) so not cheap on drugs and food and shoeing (lame without shoes), I then decided after the sad day came when he kidneys were affected to have him PTS and couldn't afford to do that again with another horse.

I can't help but think sometimes horses are put down because of financial reasons and if you didn't buy this horse in the first place, someone with lots of money may have bought them and they would not have been PTS........

I know this sounds a bit idealistic, but it makes me mad how freely PTS is recommended on this site, do right by your horse etc, well i sometimes feel its not right, its not right at all!:eek:

People replying to this thread please read carefully what I wrote before you twist my words, as I can't be doing with getting angry on such a nice sunny day!
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Vizslak said:
What about when peoples circumstances change then? When they did have money and then dont? Are they selfish for having their horses pts?
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DD excluded those people in her orginal post.
 
Vizslak said:
Well I'm glad you don't think I'm selfish then. I sort of get where you are coming from, I actually feel that I wouldnt ever have another horse even when/if I can afford again, incase life bites me in the arse again in the future. This of course though is totally ridiculous, nobody would ever own horses if everyone thought like that. We don't have crystal balls, things can and do change very quickly for the better or worse and anything can happen to anyone. We cant all go through life trying to predict the future.
I had 2 pts last August because I could no longer care for them (both retired) after my circumstances changed. In November my dog was very ill and spent 4 days in a coma...he's still here, it cost me £1200 and god knows where I found it but I did. So I do get your point, although I think the communication of it in the OP could have been worded a bit better!
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I think I agree with you. I just got a bit annoyed with the OP as she came across as a little superior. And as I have had a giant dose of bad luck I got defensive. But I do think she needs a reality check. My husband has got a new job, and in a few months we will be back to financial normality. But my lack of money now has changed my views, and I have became more realistic about how hard life can be.
 
ok, here is a real life senario for you.
i have a 13 yr old 16hh horse bought for my daughter 5 years ago.He is cold backed and quirky to say the least and a one person horse.( Fabulous on the ground though, even with tiny tots) Aged 10 he developed arthritis in both hocks. He was treated at the time and put on joint supplement. That incident cost over 1k. A year later just as he was being brought back into proper work he did both suspensories, another 1k vet bill. Decided to retire him.daughter gone off to uni and i have the horse with me on my yard so no livery costs as such just the usual food/farrier costs. he is a happy field ornament and doesn't care if he is ridden or not although he is rideable and daughter rides him once in a blue moon when she comes home. No one else on the yard is mad enough to get on him!Loaning/selling him is not an option.

The insurance, i think it is safe to say, now excludes those back legs. So while he maintains his current condition and just needs joint supplement all is dandy BUT what happens if something else goes majorly wrong ? Should i pay more expensive vet bills so he can live another 15 years doing nothing or do i call it a day and let him go? he is my daughters' baby' and she would probably have me shot before him but she doesn't pay the bills.
I now don't personally have the money to pay another expensive vet bill but i CAN get it.

so out of interest ,what would the rest of you do? fix the horse again so he can carry on dossing for the rest of his life or call it a day ?
 
councillor said:
I think I agree with you. I just got a bit annoyed with the OP as she came across as a little superior. And as I have had a giant dose of bad luck I got defensive. But I do think she needs a reality check. My husband has got a new job, and in a few months we will be back to financial normality. But my lack of money now has changed my views, and I have became more realistic about how hard life can be.
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Did I really come across as superior tho?? or did I make you feel inferior because I have values and strongly believe them to stick to them? I would friggen love another horse :-( but darent as would be selfish of me if they got sick!
 
Ottinmeg said:
ok, here is a real life senario for you.
i have a 13 yr old 16hh horse bought for my daughter 5 years ago.He is cold backed and quirky to say the least and a one person horse.( Fabulous on the ground though, even with tiny tots) Aged 10 he developed arthritis in both hocks. He was treated at the time and put on joint supplement. That incident cost over 1k. A year later just as he was being brought back into proper work he did both suspensories, another 1k vet bill. Decided to retire him.daughter gone off to uni and i have the horse with me on my yard so no livery costs as such just the usual food/farrier costs. he is a happy field ornament and doesn't care if he is ridden or not although he is rideable and daughter rides him once in a blue moon when she comes home. No one else on the yard is mad enough to get on him!Loaning/selling him is not an option.

The insurance, i think it is safe to say, now excludes those back legs. So while he maintains his current condition and just needs joint supplement all is dandy BUT what happens if something else goes majorly wrong ? Should i pay more expensive vet bills so he can live another 15 years doing nothing or do i call it a day and let him go? he is my daughters' baby' and she would probably have me shot before him but she doesn't pay the bills.
I now don't personally have the money to pay another expensive vet bill but i CAN get it.

so out of interest ,what would the rest of you do? fix the horse again so he can carry on dossing for the rest of his life or call it a day ?
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No idea, but you sound lovely and sure you would make the right decision for the horse and you x Don't think we could make a decision like that on an imaginary scenerio.
 
Here is one for you then.

We have had to cut down on horses over the last couple of years because of my OH being made redundant, then getting another job but at a MUCH lower wage now.

My AA is out on loan, purely because there was no interest to buy him, BUT.....he likes it at our place (I am only the 2nd owner he has had, and he is 16) and I can see the signs all ready, he is starting to be a twonk at his loan home, and will be shipped back to me at some point I am sure! Happened twice before, very experienced homes....but he 'just doesn't seem to like it here'....so acts the arse, then they send him home! The sod...and when he gets home? He is an angel, and the bad behaviour stops as quick as it started!

I could do a few things, try to sell him AGAIN, but what happens if he is an arse with new owner, and gets sold on.....and on.....and on....?

Loan him AGAIN, which is a pain...coz he will just come home again!

OR...bung him through a market, or sell him dirt cheap.

Those scenarios are NOT suitable in my mind, I think too much of the horse to let him end up at the meat-market or some person who has not got a clue.

He is 16, had a top-class life, and knows where his bread is buttered.

What would you do?

My thoughts are leaning towards PTS at the home he seems to love so much, at the end of a good life. He is not the only horse getting sold BTW, just so you know.....

Rather that, than a cattle waggon to the abbatoir.....
 
DragonSlayer said:
Here is one for you then.

We have had to cut down on horses over the last couple of years because of my OH being made redundant, then getting another job but at a MUCH lower wage now.

My AA is out on loan, purely because there was no interest to buy him, BUT.....he likes it at our place (I am only the 2nd owner he has had, and he is 16) and I can see the signs all ready, he is starting to be a twonk at his loan home, and will be shipped back to me at some point I am sure! Happened twice before, very experienced homes....but he 'just doesn't seem to like it here'....so acts the arse, then they send him home! The sod...and when he gets home? He is an angel, and the bad behaviour stops as quick as it started!

I could do a few things, try to sell him AGAIN, but what happens if he is an arse with new owner, and gets sold on.....and on.....and on....?

Loan him AGAIN, which is a pain...coz he will just come home again!

OR...bung him through a market, or sell him dirt cheap.

Those scenarios are NOT suitable in my mind, I think too much of the horse to let him end up at the meat-market or some person who has not got a clue.

He is 16, had a top-class life, and knows where his bread is buttered.

What would you do?

My thoughts are leaning towards PTS at the home he seems to love so much, at the end of a good life. He is not the only horse getting sold BTW, just so you know.....

Rather that, than a cattle waggon to the abbatoir.....
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that is exactly what i would do.
We have a little mare who i call our bad penny, She was nearly sold once (5 stage vetting done ) and the people changed their minds,then we loaned her out and she was v naughty! so i guess we are stuck with the little madam! lol
 
In your case DS, suck it up, give up on certain 'luxuries' (cos lets face it there's always something we can give up to save money..I no longer have Sky TV, only have a mobile phone, no internet at home, no holidays, I drive an old van, don't go on journey's unless essential..am selling my beautiful little cottage in the country to buy a house in the middle of the town I work in...etc etc) and take responsiblity for the horses life you committed too when you bought him. Or are you telling me killing a only 16 year old healthy horse down is a better option than you sacrificing something in your life in order to keep him???
 
I haven't read the whole thread, but I have always thought that there are two types of horse owners - those who love horse and those who love riding.
Those who love horses will do their best for the animals in their care, will retire them if fit to do so, and will PTS when it is the best thing for the horse.
Those who love riding will try to maintain their horses' ability to work at minimal cost, will sell them on or PTS if they can no longer be ridden, and replace them with a younger, rideable model.
It is the latter group who can often be found shouting 'Put him to sleep' at every post reporting an injury, from a fly bite upwards. :p :D
I spent a lot of money on one of mine last year (approx £10k) and am always amused by the people that say 'you could have bought a new one for that'. I know this, but I want MY horse, not a new one.
S :D
 
Shilasdair said:
I haven't read the whole thread, but I have always thought that there are two types of horse owners - those who love horse and those who love riding.
Those who love horses will do their best for the animals in their care, will retire them if fit to do so, and will PTS when it is the best thing for the horse.
Those who love riding will try to maintain their horses' ability to work at minimal cost, will sell them on or PTS if they can no longer be ridden, and replace them with a younger, rideable model.
It is the latter group who can often be found shouting 'Put him to sleep' at every post reporting an injury, from a fly bite upwards. :p :D
I spent a lot of money on one of mine last year (approx £10k) and am always amused by the people that say 'you could have bought a new one for that'. I know this, but I want MY horse, not a new one.
S :D
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THANK YOU!!! What a perfect post to this thread. :D Wish there was like button cos absolutely 100% spot on.
 
Ottinmeg said:
ok, here is a real life senario for you.
i have a 13 yr old 16hh horse bought for my daughter 5 years ago.He is cold backed and quirky to say the least and a one person horse.( Fabulous on the ground though, even with tiny tots) Aged 10 he developed arthritis in both hocks. He was treated at the time and put on joint supplement. That incident cost over 1k. A year later just as he was being brought back into proper work he did both suspensories, another 1k vet bill. Decided to retire him.daughter gone off to uni and i have the horse with me on my yard so no livery costs as such just the usual food/farrier costs. he is a happy field ornament and doesn't care if he is ridden or not although he is rideable and daughter rides him once in a blue moon when she comes home. No one else on the yard is mad enough to get on him!Loaning/selling him is not an option.

The insurance, i think it is safe to say, now excludes those back legs. So while he maintains his current condition and just needs joint supplement all is dandy BUT what happens if something else goes majorly wrong ? Should i pay more expensive vet bills so he can live another 15 years doing nothing or do i call it a day and let him go? he is my daughters' baby' and she would probably have me shot before him but she doesn't pay the bills.
I now don't personally have the money to pay another expensive vet bill but i CAN get it.

so out of interest ,what would the rest of you do? fix the horse again so he can carry on dossing for the rest of his life or call it a day ?
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Unless keeping him as a pet gave me a lot of pleasure and the problem needing treating wasn't a sure sign that his back legs were really giving up, call it a day.
 
jsr said:
In your case DS, suck it up, give up on certain 'luxuries' (cos lets face it there's always something we can give up to save money..I no longer have Sky TV, only have a mobile phone, no internet at home, no holidays, I drive an old van, don't go on journey's unless essential..am selling my beautiful little cottage in the country to buy a house in the middle of the town I work in...etc etc) and take responsiblity for the horses life you committed too when you bought him. Or are you telling me killing a only 16 year old healthy horse down is a better option than you sacrificing something in your life in order to keep him???
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What mobile phone, oh...the one that never has credit? Sky? WTF is that? We havent had a holiday in 3 years, the house is up for sale.

You talk out your arse my dear. Who can predict redundancy? Can you? Jolly good, you will save people alot of heart-ache.

Are you daft? He is NOT the only one I have for sale. Read that as you wish.

Last time we we had a meal out?

Can't remember.

So get off your high-horse Sunshine, telling me to 'suck it up' when you know jack s**t about what people have gone through to get to this point., I fully know my responsibilities, and to have him PTS is a far better action than allowing the poor devil to suffer at the hands elsewhere.

When it comes to feeding my son or my horse, my son will win.
 
Ottinmeg said:
so out of interest ,what would the rest of you do? fix the horse again so he can carry on dossing for the rest of his life or call it a day ?
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I have one in the same position, only she was lame just after I got her, can't say whether she was buted for the vetting or whether she injured herself in the field when she arrived. Insurance have excluded the legs and she can never do what she was bought for, even light hacking may not be possible. She is labour intensive with daily physio and expensive to keep with supplements and vet/physio/specialist shoeing etc. She is a constant financial drain which I can't afford but she is a lovely, happy mare and I plan to keep her until she is no longer enjoying life despite the sacrifices required on my budget.
She is not sellable, although dealer did initially offer to take her back, but I declined as it was highly likely she would be sent to market, but she was an honest but frightened horse who didn't deserve such betrayal.
For me, thats a part of horse ownership, accepting responsibility in sickness and in health. I would have her PTS if my circumstances meant she could no longer be looked after to an acceptable level but I'd have to have my back up against the wall first.
 
Shilasdair said:
I haven't read the whole thread, but I have always thought that there are two types of horse owners - those who love horse and those who love riding.
Those who love horses will do their best for the animals in their care, will retire them if fit to do so, and will PTS when it is the best thing for the horse.
Those who love riding will try to maintain their horses' ability to work at minimal cost, will sell them on or PTS if they can no longer be ridden, and replace them with a younger, rideable model.
It is the latter group who can often be found shouting 'Put him to sleep' at every post reporting an injury, from a fly bite upwards. :p :D
I spent a lot of money on one of mine last year (approx £10k) and am always amused by the people that say 'you could have bought a new one for that'. I know this, but I want MY horse, not a new one.
S :D
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Very well put. I wholeheartedly agree. (Guess which camp I fall into?)
 
I think a lot of people avoid having horses put to sleep because they can't face their own pain.

I would rather see a perfectly healthy, economically unviable horse put to sleep than I would see a horse who should have been put down days, weeks, months or even years before kept alive because the owner can't face her own emotions.
 
touchstone said:
I also agree with this, you've got to also consider that by not owning in case of unforseen circumstances, you may be depriving a horse that is currently in need of a decent home of a loving home with you for as long as cicumstances permit. My mare has been a field ornament for extended periods of time due to injury and I wouldn't consider pts as long as she had quality of life, however if I couldn't afford to keep her comfortable and happy then I would pts without hesitation and be thankful of the many years we have shared together with her in a loving home.
If only the wealthy were permitted to own horses then how many more will be turned away to face an uncertain future? Better a few years well looked after than no hope at all. There are some owners who sacrifice all sorts in order to provide for a horse and give them an excellent loving home and to judge them as selfish if they were pushed to the limits and unable to keep their horse is a bit naive and unfair I think.
There are certainly fates worse than death, so if I am judged as unfair and selfish for being part of the pts brigade then so be it, but I stand by what I feel is morally right for the welfare of the horse.
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Totally agree with this.
 
I think I get what the OP is getting at. A few years ago a woman bought herself a very nice TB despite knowing she was going to struggle financially when she bought it. She bought him in the spring so had him on grass livery and was able to save up for a couple of second hand rugs. His vaccinations were due but she couldnt afford the vet so let them slide and the same with worming although she did do him sporadically so better than nothing. When he cut his leg open she couldn't afford the vet so treated it herself, sadly it ws a nasty wound needed stitches and it got infected. The YO (farmer who just rented the field out and didn't have anything to do with it) spotted him a few days later and paid for him to be pts and taken away after she once again refused to have the vet out because she didn't have the money :(
 
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