The (re)start of a golden era of Badminton?

[teapot]

So after this weekend's exploits, are we about to see a return to big and bold tracks?


From the armchair perspective I hope so; yes it was messy and probably more finishers would be better but no one or horse was injured and there was some true horsemanship shown (Francis W mainly!).

 

[Cragrat]

I think it would have been far less messy if there had been less mud and less wind. I also wonder if some horses were fit enough this early in the season? Many years ago I think horses came to badminton having not long finished the hunting season - now few people risk their top horses in the hunting field, and there are few competitions before badminton to tune up and test fitness.
I also got the impression that in general, a bit of a sweeping statement, but it seemed that many less experienced riders had their horses fitter than many of the more experienced riders. Perhaps some people had become complacent? Or did the less experienced riders worry and err on the side of caution and got their horses 'over-fit' (for a normal year) but for a tough course like this it paid off?

But I ramble, sorry. To answer your question OP, yes, I hope we do see more courses like this, and fewer 3 day dressage tests!

 

[popsdosh]

Sorry CR but I failed to see any mud on the course(dam near perfect footing) it was just a case of under preparation and I saw some awful riding without naming names. I dont accept there is not enough time in the spring to prepare as riders have always managed ,they are mostly professionals after all.There are loads of high level events leading up to Badminton and none of those suffered for the weather this year. The course is more draining when it runs in that direction but that is something thats known. At the end of the day you cannot have your horse over fit for a 4* like that however over recent years when it has become a dressage competition I can see why some riders may have let off the fitness work to keep the lid on.

 

[VRIN]

I hope it does remain a true test, its so much more exciting to watch for the spectators and it used to be what Badminton was all about - the pinnacle of the sport.

Last year was such a boring event and i can't believe riders really want it 'dumbing down'.

I suspect next year there will be a lot of riders much better prepared than they 'appeared' to be this year. It may be that the horses themselves were not suitable for the demands of Badminton so a different choice of horse may also be needed - there has been a lot of talk of 'warmbloods', fitness and 'hitting the wall'.

 

[lannerch]

Wasn't it great, and can only be good for eventing as a whole , even my non horsey oh was glued to the screen!

The conditions although not visably muddy were far from ideal and certainly contributed as wet is gluey and each stride more tiring than dryer conditions, and the wind really did not help either, that said I'm sure fitness was an issue.

Remember in the old days riders used to have to prepare for the roads and tracks as well.

And agree Last years dressage test competition would certainly discourage preparation to produce the super fit horse required to complete this year.

 

[TGM]

there has been a lot of talk of 'warmbloods', fitness and 'hitting the wall'.

I don't think it is as simple as the old 'warmbloods v TBs' debate - look at horses like Minos de Petra (Selle Francais) and Billy Beware (by a KWPN stallion out of a Holsteiner sired mare) which both completed the course well and finished in the top 10. I think there were many, many different factors involved including the wet ground, the new demands of the course, the wind, very few let up fences, the direction the course ran, the demands of the two enormous corners at a point when horses were at their most tired etc.

 

[ClobellsandBaubles]

I suspect next year there will be a lot of riders much better prepared than they 'appeared' to be this year. It may be that the horses themselves were not suitable for the demands of Badminton so a different choice of horse may also be needed - there has been a lot of talk of 'warmbloods', fitness and 'hitting the wall'.

There were a lot of full or nearly full TBs that didn't make it either though.

 

[Hedgewitch13]

I thought it was fantastic this year - a real test of horse and rider. I would have liked to have seen less falls, some were just awful, but everyone got up and there weren't any bad injuries, as far as I know.

Hopefully there will be a lot of lessons learnt on how to tackle a proper 4* course!

 

[popsdosh]

I don't think it is as simple as the old 'warmbloods v TBs' debate - look at horses like Minos de Petra (Selle Francais) and Billy Beware (by a KWPN stallion out of a Holsteiner sired mare) which both completed the course well and finished in the top 10. I think there were many, many different factors involved including the wet ground, the new demands of the course, the wind, very few let up fences, the direction the course ran, the demands of the two enormous corners at a point when horses were at their most tired etc.

Both above carry a large % TB selle Francais in general are TBs by another name as they are allowed to race in France ,both KWPN and Holsteiner stud books have lots of TB blood

 

[Twiglet]

Sorry CR but I failed to see any mud on the course(dam near perfect footing) it was just a case of under preparation and I saw some awful riding without naming names..

I was surprised how much of the course held up, but the ground was holding and energy sapping, and there is no doubt the wind would have had a huge influence. At some points during the day - at more exposed points - it was a struggle to stand up, let alone gallop through.

 

[Darremi]

They always mention head or cross winds as a factor in racing so I can understand that the winds on Saturday may have tired the horses too.

I agree that TBs and WBs alike were very tired at the end.

If you were planning to take a horse to Badminton it might be a good idea to take fitness advice from a racing trainer. I would imagine a Grand National horse's work routine may provide useful information for the four star eventer.

 

[Darremi]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think racehorses canter 6-7 days per week. Whereas an eventer may only do 2 canters per week.

I think that is where the key to this fitness problem lies.

 

[TGM]

Both above carry a large % TB selle Francais in general are TBs by another name as they are allowed to race in France ,both KWPN and Holsteiner stud books have lots of TB blood

As do many of the modern warmbloods, hence why I think the old warmblood versus TB debate is rather past its sell by date now!

 

[lannerch]

there was some true horsemanship shown (Francis W mainly!).

I almost find this comment offensive am I the only one? Yes Francis showed truly inspirational horsemanship putting his horse before glory however he was certainly not mainly the only display of horsemanship.
Izzy springs to mind as does nick, wfp until he fell, tappers and others .

 

[Twiglet]

They always mention head or cross winds as a factor in racing so I can understand that the winds on Saturday may have tired the horses too.

I agree that TBs and WBs alike were very tired at the end.

If you were planning to take a horse to Badminton it might be a good idea to take fitness advice from a racing trainer. I would imagine a Grand National horse's work routine may provide useful information for the four star eventer.

Maybe why Tina Cook is such an effective rider/producer!

 

[Maesfen]

I think it would have been far less messy if there had been less mud and less wind. I also wonder if some horses were fit enough this early in the season? Many years ago I think horses came to badminton having not long finished the hunting season - now few people risk their top horses in the hunting field, and there are few competitions before badminton to tune up and test fitness.
I also got the impression that in general, a bit of a sweeping statement, but it seemed that many less experienced riders had their horses fitter than many of the more experienced riders. Perhaps some people had become complacent? Or did the less experienced riders worry and err on the side of caution and got their horses 'over-fit' (for a normal year) but for a tough course like this it paid off?

But I ramble, sorry. To answer your question OP, yes, I hope we do see more courses like this, and fewer 3 day dressage tests!

Badminton used to be in late March/early April so it's now much later than it used to be; I still find it hard to get used to it being so late!
Yes, lack of fitness was the prime cause of the trouble but it was apparent at the seemingly lack of commitment from the 'big' riders at some of the fences almost as if they had stopped riding by intuition and glue; I mean, come on, when did you last see AN ride a fence so sloppily or the great MT suffer indecision on his first ride and he does seem to have a thing about The Lake to ride it so badly the next time? I hope it's shook them all up out of their complacent technical courses, it was a real breath of fresh air. It was also funny to hear Tina say about they don't have many ditches on courses now which virtually means the XC that is 'normal' now is virtually only SJ over undulating ground (if they're lucky)
Bring back the old true test which Badminton used to be and which this course showed it could be again, the most respected course in the world; I take my hat off to the course designer and give him my thanks for showing us the way back to proper eventing.

 

[Maesfen]

As do many of the modern warmbloods, hence why I think the old warmblood versus TB debate is rather past its sell by date now!

But you'll never get as good a quick brain that can think for itself unless it has a majority of TB blood, that's been proved time and time again plus the TB is far easier to get and stay fit properly which comes down to their special type of muscle. There was a study somewhere to show IIRC, that while WBs might be stronger size for size, the TB was by far the better all round enduring athlete.

 

[ihatework]

I think it was a fantastic Badminton.
Yes there were a combination of factors that made a new tough course even tougher but I think this is exactly what the sport needed. A real shake up - a true test that woke people up yet didn't see really bad horse/rider falls. The frangible pin showed it's true worth.

It will be interesting to see if the other 4*'s follow suit over the next couple of years.

It will be even more interesting to see if we get a divide between the 4*'s and the Championship courses (which have become dressage competitions) - will riders divide their horses up and aim some for the 4* and keep others as the championship models?

 

[ihatework]

But you'll never get as good a quick brain that can think for itself unless it has a majority of TB blood, that's been proved time and time again plus the TB is far easier to get and stay fit properly which comes down to their special type of muscle. There was a study somewhere to show IIRC, that while WBs might be stronger size for size, the TB was by far the better all round enduring athlete.

Oh you can certainly get a quick brain with a warmblood! Sure some a pig thick, but not all. You get the odd dopey tb too.
I do agree on the fitness though .... much easier on TB blood.

 

[Dunlin]

I really enjoyed this years Badminton and yes it did hark back to the golden era. I always thought of the XC stage of Eventing being a test of bravery and fitness, much like a days hunting. In recent years the XC has been mostly technical and stylish with 'pretty' jumps. I cannot remember ever jumping a wooden hedgehog holding a flower pot out hunting!

Big logs, gates, water, ditches and brushes are all things you do find out in the natural countryside. I appreciate the requirement for dress fences for photography and something a little different for the horse to perhaps back away from but not a whole heap of them.

The weather was testing, mainly the energy sapping wind which stirred things up with regards to time penalties, the ground seemed pretty good to me and I do think it was a test of horsemanship as well as bravery, fitness and skill. A fair few top riders ran out of puff early on, this could well have been down to the wind and maybe the ground a little bit but we have had an atrocious winter to get through with flooding all over the place so I'd imagine a lot of riders struggled to get their horses out galloping/cantering in the countryside in the UK. I know that the majority of XC schooling areas here in Dorset were closed for a good 4-6 months due to flooding and very boggy ground!

Finally, with the success of the frangible pins I think course designers can get back to building big bold natural courses now knowing that they can build a big fence which will give way when a horse/rider gets it wrong. I have to say that Mark Phillips is probably the only course builder that hasn't changed much, for the past few years I have looked at Burghley as more of a test than Badminton.

Oh, 1 more point. I appreciated those 2 big corners at Huntsmans this year. You need to save some petrol for those and a lot of riders tried the direct route with a very tired horse and many others came unstuck going the long route. Going back to 90's Badminton's, depending on which way it was run you either had the Sunken Road or The Quarry late on and they were always big and always caught a few out who hadn't saved some petrol.

I think Giuseppe della Chiesa did a fantastic job, we had a proper competition, not (as someone earlier said) a 3 day Dressage event. I hope this gives confidence to other course builders to follow suit and get back to proper Eventing with proper natural cross country courses.

Oh oh oh... last thing, honest. Someone mentioned the Grand National, I remember when Badminton had the double Aintree fences, they should definitely bring back those!

 

[Nag_Nag_Nag]

The problem I see is riders/horse ability for that particular level (this is far from me attacking peoples ability btw). We seem to be making the lower level courses easier (pressure from riders and BE to make them easier) as well as the qualification. Its a huge jump up from say Weston Advanced to Badminton, yet a lot of Badminton bound horses use Weston as a warm up. I realize they are different levels, but it is a HUGE jump up. Add to the fact there have been a number of events cancelled this year, so runs have been sparse.

 

[armchair_rider]

I thought it was great. The one proviso I would make was that most of the top Germans were missing which was probably going to make it less of a dressage contest anyway. I do agree that there would have been more finishers in better weather - though that does beg the question of how many finishers you'd want. And actually 36 out of 80 finishing isn't hideously low anyway (Ludwing Svennerstal was eliminated after finishing hence only 35 going forward).

I certainly would like to see this as the beginning of a new era in course building - bigger fences, greater sustained difficulty, relative lack of skinnies (and the skinnies there were had been effectively placed - lots of problems with the escalator and outlander bank). The big problem with this would be, as somebody has already said, the difficulty in producing this type of course in the compact semi-urban venues that championships are tending to be held in.

As to whether this would lead to polarisation in the sport... Arguably it already has. Horses are being picked for teams because of their dressage and SJ ability rather than being great XC (remember the arguments over whether Opposition Buzz should be picked for the Olympics?) and the current German dominance owes a lot to excellence in these two phases.

The other interesting point was that although this was an old-fashioned 4* it was ultimately younger riders who emerged at the top.

 

[claracanter]

Finally, with the success of the frangible pins I think course designers can get back to building big bold natural courses now knowing that they can build a big fence which will give way when a horse/rider gets it wrong. I have to say that Mark Phillips is probably the only course builder that hasn't changed much, for the past few years I have looked at Burghley as more of a test than Badminton.


I think Giuseppe della Chiesa did a fantastic job, we had a proper competition, not (as someone earlier said) a 3 day Dressage event. I hope this gives confidence to other course builders to follow suit and get back to proper Eventing with proper natural cross country courses.

I agree with Dunlin on this. With the improved safety standards all round, perhaps course builders will return to the bold and brave courses I remember watching as a child.

 

[LittleOwl]

I'm another who thinks fitness was the main issue. There isn't much of an excuse as some horses finished full of running - the time might have been a little tight but the time pens added to it all! The corners in huntsman's close may have been a little big for the end of the track but as others have said they should have saved petrol

I also thought it was particularly important that no horses or riders were injured, despite the lack of finishers.

Correct me if i'm wrong but considering who finished and who didnt, maybe our top riders are becoming complacent (or maybe its because it was so easy last year)??

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

I could see the course was good to soft in places, though it held up well over the event, it had no gimmicks, and although one or two fences were not easy, and some needed a lot of courage to ride sucessfully, some horses were not able to jump due to incorect presentation at the fence. They all seemed very professional and if a few ran out of petrol, I think it was due to the course riding more tiring than in previous years. Few horses get the perfect preparation for any event, so it is not surprising that a few had to withdraw before the end. If ground were better more would have got round.
Its the weather!

 

[TGM]

But you'll never get as good a quick brain that can think for itself unless it has a majority of TB blood, that's been proved time and time again plus the TB is far easier to get and stay fit properly which comes down to their special type of muscle. There was a study somewhere to show IIRC, that while WBs might be stronger size for size, the TB was by far the better all round enduring athlete.

I agree that the TB brings an awful lot of good things to the mix, and the modern warmblood has benefitted a lot from TB blood. The point I was trying to make is that the majority of warmbloods out eventing today are not the heavy, chunky models that we saw 20 years ago, but lighter, faster and often with very quick brains as well, which as you rightly point out may be down to the TB blood.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

I also thought it was particularly important that no horses or riders were injured, despite the lack of finishers.

Correct me if i'm wrong but considering who finished and who didnt, maybe our top riders are becoming complacent (or maybe its because it was so easy last year)??

When top riders take on a horse to prepare for Badminton it is a big commitment for rider and for owners, but I think that riders to some extent have to work with what they have got, whereas individual owner riders can only enter at this level if they know their horse is outstanding. I may be wrong, but it is a possible reason for the varied results.

 

[Clare85]

I think maybe it was a general lack of prep and expectation. It was clear during many rider interviews in the couple of days before xc day that a lot of riders were concerned about the test ahead. I have to say this did surprise me because last year there were lots of riders asking for a beefier track after last year's event. But there were definite nerves and uncertainty coming across. Hopefully this year's course has given everyone a good old shake up and we'll continue to see testing courses and exciting competition in the future.

 

[armchair_rider]

I think the top riders probably have less invested in the competition - they aren't under such pressure to get round because they know that their sponsors won't ditch them and they have the resources to re-route the horse to Luhmuhlen or Chatsworth. WFP chose to withdraw one of his horses despite having the potential for a Grand Slam which suggests that he has a lot of freedom in what he does. In contrast the publicity associated with getting round and finishing high will probably be a big boost for the Dutch riders, Izzy Taylor, Ludvig Svennerstal etc.

That said it is interesting that so many top riders were eliminated - in Mary King's case the conditions may have been too much for the horse but you'd certainly have expected Mark Todd and Andrew Nicholson to get round. (Mind you Toddy's second ride was a masterclass in dealing with awkward horses).

 

[ihatework]

I'm another who thinks fitness was the main issue. There isn't much of an excuse as some horses finished full of running - the time might have been a little tight but the time pens added to it all! The corners in huntsman's close may have been a little big for the end of the track but as others have said they should have saved petrol

I also thought it was particularly important that no horses or riders were injured, despite the lack of finishers.

Correct me if i'm wrong but considering who finished and who didnt, maybe our top riders are becoming complacent (or maybe its because it was so easy last year)??

Over the years courses have evolved into what we have seen in the last few years at badminton. Riders have prepared their horses accordingly.

This time the course obviously altered the questions slightly and combined with the conditions it made it a different test for the horse. No bad thing in my book.

Do bare in mind that lots of the top horse/rider combinations retired after just one problem. For the big names its not always about completing, it's about what their priorities are for the horse later in the season. Many of those horses will now have an extra run elsewhere for not continuing at badminton.