The (re)start of a golden era of Badminton?

[hcm88]

Fitness an issue definitely, the ground and conditions were energy sapping even though they looked ok. The ground was soft, horses were slipping and the wind/rain was tough. Certainly not as bad as expected as we didn't get the rain forecast, but not great conditions for the new big course.

Thoroughbreds naturally have that bit extra stamina, you can get horses to their full possible fitness and it still may not be enough. On perfect weather/ground conditions I would imagine those who ran out of petrol at the Huntsman's Close would have been ok, but you needed that bit extra this year as the ground took that little bit more out of them.

I think riders will take a lot away from it both in preparation and mentality. I hope Badminton stays this way - safe but tough and a huge test. It shows you can have a tough test without it being unsafe or dangerous, I can imagine its just given riders a wake up call.

 

[Maesfen]

When top riders take on a horse to prepare for Badminton it is a big commitment for rider and for owners, but I think that riders to some extent have to work with what they have got, whereas individual owner riders can only enter at this level if they know their horse is outstanding. I may be wrong, but it is a possible reason for the varied results.

So what about Nereo and Parklane Hawk; they're hardly just 3* horses as their previous results prove and coupled with their top riders they should have pi$$ed it but instead, ended up making silly mistakes at relatively easy fences while others like Imperial Cavalier had lost a bit of confidence - or was it not enough positive riding from riders that should have known better?
I have to admit to watching WFP and AN setting off and settling back, thinking I was now seeing a master in action who would show how easy they could make it; I'm sure I wasn't alone to be gobsmacked at what actually happened with them both.
Incidentally, has anyone seen/known what happened with PH at that hedge as the camera angle only really showed him tipping up, you couldn't see why?

 

[Goldenstar]

Reflecting I feel perhaps so many of the fences where built on undulations that it just sapped the horses and riders mentally as well as physically .
And that rate of attrition would not be acceptable without the frangible pins .
To many good horses with riders with unbelievably experienced riders came unstuck people who I simply don't believe did not have horses fit enough.
Still working through what I feel about it defiantly the most thought provoking days XC I can remember watching .

 

[chestnut cob]

Incidentally, has anyone seen/known what happened with PH at that hedge as the camera angle only really showed him tipping up, you couldn't see why?

From the TV camera angle, looked like he left a front leg and tipped up? Not sure though. I was also gobsmacked at seeing that fall! To see so many of the top riders come a cropper was pretty incredible (not as in "wow, that's amazing" incredible, just :-0 ), but good to see some new faces in contention. It must have certainly shaken things up a bit!

 

[Vanha12]

Both above carry a large % TB selle Francais in general are TBs by another name as they are allowed to race in France ,both KWPN and Holsteiner stud books have lots of TB blood

Agree with this - I have a holsteiner x ID. On paper she sounds like she should be very chunky but she is often mistaken for being at least 3/4 tb#1 There is tb and selle francais in her line.

 

[TGM]

Overall I thought the increase in difficulty in the course was a good thing, it was unfortunate that the weather conditions on the day increased the demands on horse and rider. The only bit I didn't like was the big corners at Huntsman's Close - I think it would have been a fair question if situated differently, but coming towards the end of the course after a long incline there were pretty unforgiving obstacles to tackle when the horses were already at their limits. Seeing some of the horses banking them and one actually getting stuck on top was quite scary, though thankfully none seem to be hurt.

 

[rachel_s]

So what about Nereo and Parklane Hawk; they're hardly just 3* horses as their previous results prove and coupled with their top riders they should have pi$$ed it but instead, ended up making silly mistakes at relatively easy fences while others like Imperial Cavalier had lost a bit of confidence - or was it not enough positive riding from riders that should have known better?
I have to admit to watching WFP and AN setting off and settling back, thinking I was now seeing a master in action who would show how easy they could make it; I'm sure I wasn't alone to be gobsmacked at what actually happened with them both.
Incidentally, has anyone seen/known what happened with PH at that hedge as the camera angle only really showed him tipping up, you couldn't see why?

The Times write up says Parklane Hawk was found to have an irregular heartbeat which may have contributed to the WFP fall. Nicholson is quoted as saying Guiseppe did a very good job. Some of us riders were found wanting. Goes on to say the wet weather was unfortunate but he had no gripes about the course. Toddy is quoted saying it reminded him of his first win in 1980 - and it's putting badminton back where it belonged - the best in the world.

 

[el_Snowflakes]

I absolutely loved it this year. This is what badminton is all about, world class horse & rider combinations.

 

[TGM]

The Times write up says Parklane Hawk was found to have an irregular heartbeat which may have contributed to the WFP fall.

That's interesting. I was wondering whether some of the horses that did not complete had some subclinical physical weaknesses that might only show when they are pushed to their limits by the course and the weather conditions. Not only heart, but very mild respiratory conditions, the beginnings of a virus etc., which you would normally not notice.

 

[RachelFerd]

It made for excellent viewing - I nearly fell asleep watching last year, no risk of that this year! When walking the course I would've agreed with TGM, I thought those corners were seriously beefy and not terribly forgiving for the end of the course. I feel the flagging on the corners could have been more helpful, as it does seem rather unjust that two riders (gemma tattersall and ludwig svennerstal) effectively jumped good rounds but were technically eliminated despite their horses utmost efforts to jump whatever was in front of them.

Like Maesfen I also sat back thinking we were seeing masters at work with WFP and AN and was truly shocked to see them fall foul of what were largely 'insignificant' fences.

I loved having the vicarage vee back, thought it was a great test that caught a few out, but when jumped well, it looked to jump REALLY well.

Also praise must go to Nick Gauntlett whose horse looked like a nice one for the future - he appeared to be happiest rider of the day when completing!

 

[Jango]

I was there on Saturday and the ground was good! It was the wind that was the problem it was really really strong, just walking into the wind was a challenge at times, hats were being blown off etc. We were camping and tents/marquees were being blown down constantly! I know myself from running it's more tiring on a windy day, so with the horses large surface area it must make a big difference, also to their breathing I would imagine, so they were finishing tired.

The track was fabulous though! Frangible pins are a fantastic invention and prevent injuries, yet allow for proper Badminton fences.

Also at Huntsman Close there was a long option avoiding the very tricky direct route with the huge corners on the angle, some of the less experienced riders chose the long route here to try and stay clear which was a sensible choice! I think next year (if the weather is v different) will be very interesting to see how everyone fares.

 

[LEC]

Warmblood vs TB is a dull now - The winner was less than 50% TB, the fastest horse round the course is maybe 50% TB but could have been less as dam line is incomplete. Who cares? The traditional ISH ruled for years with ID x TB - what is the difference now with TB x Hostein etc etc? Nick Gauntletts horse is the most interesting as bred for dressage and virtually no TB but Hannovarian. Yes it looked tired but it made it home and kept jumping which many did not.

Also about ditches- Tattersalls and Bramham have some mean ditches. Ireland also has an early season event with a mean ditch - Ballendenisk sp? What about Centaurs Leap or is that not a mean ditch? Frankly a horse is not going to get to even 2* level without being au fait with ditches.

Do I think riders were complacent? No, but some did make errors and they did not get away with them.

 

[firm]

Geoff Curran and his horse did a fab round, came home looking fit and full of running despite having had only 1 run in the last 14 months!

 

[teapot]

I almost find this comment offensive am I the only one? Yes Francis showed truly inspirational horsemanship putting his horse before glory however he was certainly not mainly the only display of horsemanship.
Izzy springs to mind as does nick, wfp until he fell, tappers and others .

It was just one example of many that I couldn't be bothered to list at midnight last night.

 

[frostyfingers]

Someone (Ian Stark) I think mentioned that the extra loop towards the new water fence was uphill and seemed to take quite a lot out of horses. Wind is hugely tiring and must have had a significant effect on several horses.

 

[Gamebird]

It was just one example of many that I couldn't be bothered to list at midnight last night.

I think the objection was to the word 'mainly' which implies it was pretty much only Francis who displayed the horsemanship. If you'd written 'amongst others, Francis' that would imply that there were several who displayed it, but that you'd just picked one example.

I knew what you meant, but it's a classic example of the written word deceiving. If the conversation had been spoken I suspect you'd all have agreed and no-one would have been offended. On here the nuance becomes lost so any lack of precision (for example as might happen around midnight ) can lead to mis-interpretation.

 

[teapot]

I think the objection was to the word 'mainly' which implies it was pretty much only Francis who displayed the horsemanship. If you'd written 'amongst others, Francis' that would imply that there were several who displayed it, but that you'd just picked one example.

I knew what you meant, but it's a classic example of the written word deceiving. If the conversation had been spoken I suspect you'd all have agreed and no-one would have been offended. On here the nuance becomes lost so any lack of precision (for example as might happen around midnight ) can lead to mis-interpretation.

So it would appear and perhaps I should have said sportsmanship rather than horsemanship too. Hope I didn't offend you either

 

[Gamebird]

So it would appear and perhaps I should have said sportsmanship rather than horsemanship too. Hope I didn't offend you either

Me? I don't care about anything . I could just see exactly where the problem arose and fancied a spot of umpiring

 

[Honey08]

Incidentally, has anyone seen/known what happened with PH at that hedge as the camera angle only really showed him tipping up, you couldn't see why?

p

We were right in front of it when they fell. They came in nicely to it. PH looked a bit tired, but nothing too bad considering where they were on the course. He clipped the front of the hedge with a front foot, not to the extent that it looked bad, but PH just didn't put his legs down in time, pecked onto his knees and nose, William just slid down his neck and over his ears. Both of them got up looking shocked to be on the floor and walked off home. It was a very unexpected fall.

In general (not in WFP and ph's case) a lot of the falls (that we saw) looked like rider nerves causing errors. I'm away at the mo, but when I get back I will post a video of two horses at the Mirage pond, one goes through perfectly and it looks easy, the next struggled and was awful to watch..

I didn't think the ground can really be used as an excuse, there was no mud at all, ive seen much worse, and those conditions were what should really be expected for a spring event.. In my opinion it was a big scary 4*, that's all. We really enjoyed it.

 

[tiggs]

That's interesting. I was wondering whether some of the horses that did not complete had some subclinical physical weaknesses that might only show when they are pushed to their limits by the course and the weather conditions. Not only heart, but very mild respiratory conditions, the beginnings of a virus etc., which you would normally not notice.

I wondered that about AN' s horses, Avebury wasn't up to his usual performance at Kentucky either

 

[Twiglet]

p



I didn't think the ground can really be used as an excuse, there was no mud at all, ive seen much worse, and those conditions were what should really be expected for a spring event.. In my opinion it was a big scary 4*, that's all. We really enjoyed it.

There was mud. It wasn't a quagmire by any stretch but there was mud, and the ground was holding - whether that be normal for spring conditions or not. We watched a few from one of the flat stretches (between 9 and 10) and the ground was distinctly 'cut' even early on. I don't think the ground was as much of an issue as the wind, which was obscene in parts, but I've no doubt it would have affected performance in most cases.

 

[oldvic]

Badminton used to be in late March/early April so it's now much later than it used to be; I still find it hard to get used to it being so late!
Yes, lack of fitness was the prime cause of the trouble but it was apparent at the seemingly lack of commitment from the 'big' riders at some of the fences almost as if they had stopped riding by intuition and glue; I mean, come on, when did you last see AN ride a fence so sloppily or the great MT suffer indecision on his first ride and he does seem to have a thing about The Lake to ride it so badly the next time? I hope it's shook them all up out of their complacent technical courses, it was a real breath of fresh air.

Mark's so called indecision? Andrew sloppy? Campino, like Quimbo, is not a natural galloper but a good and scopey jumper. They have been taught to gallop but with those types it is not easy to adjust them back out of the long stride. They tend to bare down onto your hand and become unbalanced. When you then have a bad distance to a big fence your options are limited and whatever you do is wrong. This was the case with both these horses. Leonidas was green going into the lake and needed encouragement. His back end flicked up when his stifles caught the log, hitting Mark up the backside and knocking him forward. He then shot forward and into the deep water even though Mark was quickly back in balance. Many would have been unseated. Nereo's mistake was caused by an outside influence. If your horse is the type to shy away when you are out of balance you have no chance to stay on whoever you are. The last thing either of these riders are is complacent.

The problem I see is riders/horse ability for that particular level (this is far from me attacking peoples ability btw). We seem to be making the lower level courses easier (pressure from riders and BE to make them easier) as well as the qualification. Its a huge jump up from say Weston Advanced to Badminton, yet a lot of Badminton bound horses use Weston as a warm up. I realize they are different levels, but it is a HUGE jump up. Add to the fact there have been a number of events cancelled this year, so runs have been sparse.

This is so true. Until the CICs are truly at the level instead of intermediate tracks for 2* and standard advanced for 3*, there is nowhere to give the experience.

I'm another who thinks fitness was the main issue. There isn't much of an excuse as some horses finished full of running - the time might have been a little tight but the time pens added to it all! The corners in huntsman's close may have been a little big for the end of the track but as others have said they should have saved petrol
Correct me if i'm wrong but considering who finished and who didnt, maybe our top riders are becoming complacent (or maybe its because it was so easy last year)??

A few that went very slowly were less tired but nothing was full of running. It is not so easy in those conditions to go fast enough to be competitive but have enough left. An awkward jump or a gust of wind can take precious energy so you need to have things go your way as well. The top riders are certainly not complacent but they didn't get the "rub of the green".

I think the top riders probably have less invested in the competition - they aren't under such pressure to get round because they know that their sponsors won't ditch them and they have the resources to re-route the horse to Luhmuhlen or Chatsworth. WFP chose to withdraw one of his horses despite having the potential for a Grand Slam which suggests that he has a lot of freedom in what he does. .

Really?!! The big competitions are what they work so hard for and gives them such a buzz. They mean as much to the top riders as anyone. It is quite possible that William withdrew because Cool Mountain has had soundness issues and will only have a limited number of top competitions left in him. To start in an uncompetitive place would be a waste of a run.

Incidentally, has anyone seen/known what happened with PH at that hedge as the camera angle only really showed him tipping up, you couldn't see why?

He looked to be slightly to the right and maybe not quite straight. He caught the high brush with his off fore and that tipped him up. The shock of falling could have made his heart fibrillate.

I wondered that about AN' s horses, Avebury wasn't up to his usual performance at Kentucky either

There was absolutely nothing wrong with Andrew's horses. Quimbo was pulled up looking very happy having incurred 20 pens at the bank. He is not a fast horse so wouldn't be competitive with that having wasted valuable time. Nereo was making it look very easy and was on his minute markers in spite of Andrew trying to go steady as he knew he could be well over time. He left a leg coming out of the pond due to a fault with the pinning at the A element causing him to run through the water. Avebury, while not himself, was not sick.

 

[dieseldog]

It will be even more interesting to see if we get a divide between the 4*'s and the Championship courses (which have become dressage competitions) - will riders divide their horses up and aim some for the 4* and keep others as the championship models?

They already do that - look at Miners Frolic - he was never a 4* horse but you would always want him on a championship team, before London 2012 the last time he completed a proper 4 star was 2009. I cant see things like the Olympics changing as you have to make sure the newer nations get round and losing eventing as an Olympic sport is no good for anyone. I think what is interesting is the differer between show jumping and eventing - the Olympics really are the toughest for SJ and there has been no dumbing down as the newer nations have caught up with the big boys - but SJ is safer than eventing too.

 

[jellybaby2]

I think it was the wind sapping the energy to be honest. I run a lot, and it's blooming hard work in a string wind and my times are noticeably slower. I don't think it was the ground as the wind would have been very drying, and it certainly wasn't the mud bath of 92...!
I loved every minute of it on Saturday and I think the course designer did a fab job.
I thoroughly enjoyed watching izzy Taylor on both her rides and also Harry meade, both complete naturals across country and in sure this has been helped by their background out hunting.
JB x

 

[Teri]

Adding to the previous comment about possible respiratory issues/issues...

I work with racehorses and we have to listen to their breathing as we canter especially when we are breezing. If they whistle, make any unnatural noise, they will go and have a tie back operation to help. No horse will run well if they can't breath.
More and more I have gone eventing and heard the early warning signs that they aren't breathing correctly as they canter past. I would Have loved to have been there Saturday and listened to them because I could imagine some of the horses which struggled were actually unable to breath, I wonder if the courses continue to stay more physically commanding, if eventers will be more inclined to look into tie back operations and such.
Does anyone know how common it is for an event horse to be scoped after a run also?
I definitely think eventers need to look more into what goes into the fitness and maintenance of a racehorse.

 

[claracanter]

Would love to see how Michael Jung would have coped wit the track

 

[Darremi]

Adding to the previous comment about possible respiratory issues/issues...

I work with racehorses and we have to listen to their breathing as we canter especially when we are breezing. If they whistle, make any unnatural noise, they will go and have a tie back operation to help. No horse will run well if they can't breath.
More and more I have gone eventing and heard the early warning signs that they aren't breathing correctly as they canter past. I would Have loved to have been there Saturday and listened to them because I could imagine some of the horses which struggled were actually unable to breath, I wonder if the courses continue to stay more physically commanding, if eventers will be more inclined to look into tie back operations and such.
Does anyone know how common it is for an event horse to be scoped after a run also?
I definitely think eventers need to look more into what goes into the fitness and maintenance of a racehorse.

They mentioned on the commentary that somebody's horse had had a breathing op over the winter. I think it was one of Clerk Montgomery's horses. And yet both his were pulled up for being exhausted .

Terri, what would be your typical NH horse's weekly fitness routine, if you do not mind me asking?

I am looking to take my horse to the 3 day at Blair Castle. The XC is massively hilly and I want to make sure my WB is fit as a fiddle .

 

[Leaping]

Nereo was making it look very easy and was on his minute markers in spite of Andrew trying to go steady as he knew he could be well over time. He left a leg coming out of the pond due to a fault with the pinning at the A element causing him to run through the water. Avebury, while not himself, was not sick.

I agree with nearly all your post, but Nereo left a leg going into the pond - I don't think you can blame that all on the pinning, and whilst a big AN fan and know he is an incredible horseman, the impression I got watching it on telly was that he didn't really set the horse up for the exit as well as he could have done and Nereo left a leg (which you also wouldn't expect from that horse) and AN was caught unawares (which is another surprise) we have all seen him stay on far more dramatic displays.

I wouldn't have said he was sloppy nor complacent but I don't think you can blame it all on the pinning of the entry (its not like it fell down on its own...) - he was just caught out like many others were. In the same way that Tina Cook's horse should have locked on to that element at fence 5 and didn't (you would expect at that level for the horse to lock on) - and whilst the fences weren't all brand new, the design and the ground and the weather meant that very few mistakes were forgiven

 

[EventingMum]

This is one of the most interesting threads for a long time. I didn't have the pleasure of being at Badminton but thoroughly enjoyed watching it on TV.

I think the xc results were something few of us would have predicted but allowed some less well known riders to shine which is great, we all love seeing MT, WFP and AN demonstrate their obvious skills but they have all passed the mid point of their careers so younger riders with talent and determination are a great asset to ensure the future of our sport and the big name's misfortune may have actually been a positive in the long turn. Whatever else happens I think Burghley will be interesting and very competitive this year.

My own musings over this year's Badminton's xc are as follows: the wind must have placed a additional stress on many horses resulting in them tiring more quickly and many riders recognised this and rode accordingly or retired however it did appear to take some riders by surprise resulting in some falls.

The points raised about many horses being educated in the hunting field in the past are undoubtedly valid. Also many potential eventers were "found" in the hunting field displaying talent and boldness whereas now most are the result of a selective sports horse breeding programme and have a significantly higher price tag so some owners are unwilling to risk their investment out hunting.

The demise of long format CCIs seems to have almost coincided with the change to less bold, more technical xc courses, did this year's return of big, bold Badminton combined with the weather require the fitness of yesteryear's horses? I imagine by the time this year's course was unveiled horses were too far along their fitness programme to make significant changes but few will be caught out again next year.

In terms of preparation and fitness I do wonder if the incredibly wet start to the year also affected some riders, obviously it depends on location and some have access to all weather gallops but for some it must have made preparation more difficult. It amazes me how the top riders manage to produce a string of 3 and 4* horses to the required level, taking in to account the individual needs of each horse. The time and careful monitoring must be immense and huge credit must go to their organisation and their support team, in years gone by it was unusual if a top rider had more than two 4* horses.

As others have said it will be interesting to see if other major events follow suit and beef up their xc courses - I personally feel we may see some exciting times ahead in the eventing world!

 

[Teri]

They mentioned on the commentary that somebody's horse had had a breathing op over the winter. I think it was one of Clerk Montgomery's horses. And yet both his were pulled up for being exhausted .

Terri, what would be your typical NH horse's weekly fitness routine, if you do not mind me asking?

I am looking to take my horse to the 3 day at Blair Castle. The XC is massively hilly and I want to make sure my WB is fit as a fiddle .

That's interesting that they mentioned it actually, I didn't get to watch it as I'm in America at the moment with limited internet!

Our horses canter 6 days a week, and we do interval training. They also go in the walker in the evenings. Trot one lap to warm up.
One lap of our track is just short of a mile of undulating ground so a weekly routine would be

Monday - 1 and 3/8ths
Tuesday - 2 and 1/2
Wednesday - 3
Thursday - 2 and school over hurdles/timber
Friday - 3
Saturday - 3 but on the last lap, we breeze them upsides or on their own, depending on how much our trainer wants them to do and that would last for about 5/8ths.

Any horses who do a longer distance, apart from Mondays and Tuesdays, will go for another half a mile.
Hope this helps in anyway, even if it's just for general interest.