THE REUNION – BBC Radio 4, Sunday 4th September at 11.15am

[EAST KENT]

Defeatism? No,a reality check. Some of these sheep like "hunters" need to look at the bigger picture,move on and get on with life. They do need to look around and see what it is like outside their cloistered little world.
Lost causes are a waste of time,as it is quite a few hunts are "as normal",so keep your heads down and carry on,stay un-noticed and maybe the sods will go away!
Repeal ..it ain`t going to happen,move on.

 

[rosie fronfelen]

Defeatism? No,a reality check. Some of these sheep like "hunters" need to look at the bigger picture,move on and get on with life. They do need to look around and see what it is like outside their cloistered little world.
Lost causes are a waste of time,as it is quite a few hunts are "as normal",so keep your heads down and carry on,stay un-noticed and maybe the sods will go away!
Repeal ..it ain`t going to happen,move on.

Wise words East Kent---

 

[Herne]

Defeatism? No... Repeal ..it ain`t going to happen...

Defeatism, yes.

What puzzles me is why, when you have clearly given up and "moved on" yourself, you seem to be so determined to "move back" and persuade others to give up, too?

Who knows; if, heaven forbid, you turned out to be wrong, you would benefit from their endeavours whilst continuing to do nothing yourself?

Or is it just that people like company in defeat...?

 

[rosie fronfelen]

Defeatism, yes.

What puzzles me is why, when you have clearly given up and "moved on" yourself, you seem to be so determined to "move back" and persuade others to give up, too?

Who knows; if, heaven forbid, you turned out to be wrong, you would benefit from their endeavours whilst continuing to do nothing yourself?

Or is it just that people like company in defeat...?

Herne, just stop it for gods sake................................join the REAL world--

 

[EAST KENT]

Herne, just stop it for gods sake................................join the REAL world--

Thankyou Rosie,such an acid drop we have here In the bigger picture stuff like dear Rosie`s health are far more important are`nt they?

 

[Alec Swan]

Thankyou Rosie,such an acid drop we have here In the bigger picture stuff like dear Rosie`s health are far more important are`nt they?

Certainly, and I'll go along with that. Well said!

I do so like how Rosie seems so able to pass by the crap, and gets to the quick!!

Alec.

 

[rosie fronfelen]

Thankyou Rosie,such an acid drop we have here In the bigger picture stuff like dear Rosie`s health are far more important are`nt they?

well,i'm still alive and kicking,just, but the tongue still works---- sorry, cant reach exclamation marks and brackets so its its dot dot and dash dash.

 

[JanetGeorge]

Lost causes are a waste of time,as it is quite a few hunts are "as normal",so keep your heads down and carry on,stay un-noticed and maybe the sods will go away!
Repeal ..it ain`t going to happen,move on.

A lot of hunts are able to continue more or less 'as normal' - but 'forgetting' about repeal would be a total betrayal of our professional huntsmen - who are inevitably those who have to face the consequences of spurious prosecutions brought against them!!

Repeal won't happen in the short-term - that's a fact of political life - but burying heads in sand and saying 'forget it' is as bad as those who said - in the '70s and '80s - "Oh they'll never ban hunting - don't worry about it!"

For now it IS a case of 'keeping heads down and powder dry' - a mantra that was popular in the '70s and '80s and was WRONG then. But we do need to continue quietly working - on educating urban politicians, and on keeping as much good 'soft' hunting PR in the media as we can (and avoiding the BAD PR) so that when the time is right, we are ready to move!

 

[rosie fronfelen]

A lot of hunts are able to continue more or less 'as normal' - but 'forgetting' about repeal would be a total betrayal of our professional huntsmen - who are inevitably those who have to face the consequences of spurious prosecutions brought against them!!

Repeal won't happen in the short-term - that's a fact of political life - but burying heads in sand and saying 'forget it' is as bad as those who said - in the '70s and '80s - "Oh they'll never ban hunting - don't worry about it!"

For now it IS a case of 'keeping heads down and powder dry' - a mantra that was popular in the '70s and '80s and was WRONG then. But we do need to continue quietly working - on educating urban politicians, and on keeping as much good 'soft' hunting PR in the media as we can (and avoiding the BAD PR) so that when the time is right, we are ready to move!

you cant educate lard Janet----

 

[combat_claire]

Herne, just stop it for gods sake................................join the REAL world--

The ironic thing is that Herne is very much grounded in the real world. It is those who are advocating either rushing into a bodged effort at repeal via statutory instruments or who think that the battle is lost completely and are mired in defeatism that don't seem to have visited planet earth recently.

From my personal experiences since the ban I can see that in general foxhound packs seem to be coping better than most due to the exemptions open to them. It is very easy to forget about the three stag hound packs struggling with their exemptions of observation/research and hunting with 2 hounds whilst support from visitors haemorrhages because the old guard say it isn't a patch on what it used to be.

JG has summed up the current situation perfectly; 'nuff said.

 

[Judgemental]

No there is not enough said, far from it. Unless people contribute to this forum and express their opinions publicly, the ‘powers that be’ will not be brought to realise that they have to redefine their strategy but also take account of the views of those that put them ‘in power’.

There is in my 'umble opinion only one way to deal with the issue.

On the premise that there will never be a wholesale full-blown repeal, the make up now, of politics in this country, is probably evenly split in the House of Commons for the foreseeable future, even after any General Election.

Taking a leaf out of the Dragons Den good business advice - "don't be greedy", you came with nothing and/or the game show, Deal or No Deal, when you are ahead quit.

Now I know it's easy to equate the Hunting Act in such a way, but it is better to get something rather than nothing at all for the foreseeable future.

I was told in a public setting, that at the outset of the Coalition, Jim Paice MP a Minister at DEFRA, made an interesting and workable offer to the MFHA, which was turned down.

In my 'umble opinion that was a mistake. From that offer a compromise, albeit small could have been worked out.

Those in favour of hunting would have achieved something, the antis would recognise something had been given and that they did not stand a chance to have it revoked.

In the final analysis, 'don't be greedy', have nibble at The Act from time to time, slowly eroding it - going for the full frontal, is going to leave one in a similar position to the person who goes away from Deal or No Deal with 1 Penny, or from the Dragons Den with all the dragons saying they are 'out’.

There has to be small scale compromise.

I have to question why we have not gone down that road. Is it, there are those who are so vainglorious they want to retain control at all 'costs'.

Alternatively are there those who have financial interest to perpetuate matters. Somebody has mentioned all the clever solicitors and barrisers involved, presumably they do not do anything for nothing.

Whilst on the subject of solicitors, which is I agree somewhat irrelevant - on the other hand may be not, there is a very interesting Website called www.solicitorsfromhell.co.uk - It's particularly embarrising when one finds somebody one knows listed. Be careful it's not a leg pulling subject, they get very upset when the postings are mentioned, even in jest. Especially where professional fees are concerned.

 

[rosie fronfelen]

To the real men on the ground, the sabs are already out with their video cameras, hiding in hedges and police being called etc,isnt this what its all about-losing our freedom, i fear its going to be a bad year,and what sabs listen to politics??

 

[Fiagai]

To the real men on the ground, the sabs are already out with their video cameras, hiding in hedges and police being called etc,isnt this what its all about-losing our freedom, i fear its going to be a bad year,and what sabs listen to politics??

Thats the sad thing about all this...to use an analogy or two - that the bullies are now dictating house rules...and they have been given permission to do so by the head master.

 

[Judgemental]

To the real men on the ground, the sabs are already out with their video cameras, hiding in hedges and police being called etc,isnt this what its all about-losing our freedom, i fear its going to be a bad year,and what sabs listen to politics??

Rosie again you have hit the nail on the head and I would agree with you 100%

That is why I keep banging the drum to have Section 8 of the Hunting Act 2004 amended.

Once the position of Police Officers is changed so they are, 'put back in their police stations' and they can only rely on: "evidence brought to them, rather than them going to the evidence", then there will be an easing of the situation.

 

[Herne]

That is why I keep banging the drum to have Section 8 of the Hunting Act 2004 amended.

For Pete's sake, Judgemental, please stop babbling.

(In hunting parlance, a hound which speaks on the wrong (or no) scent is referred to as "babbling" and you, Sir, are a babbler.)

You were wrong about the use of Statutory Instruments.

You were wrong about the powers given Police to enter premises without a warrant being exceptional.

And you are wrong about this, too.

Please try to comprehend this relatively simple fact:

It is equally, if not more, difficult to amend an Act of Parliament as it is to repeal one.

If you try to amend a single full-stop, you open yourself to counter amendments and all the problems of arguing out all the rights and wrongs of each word and phrase.

If you go for a one-line repeal Bill, then people will just vote the way they are going to vote and there needs to be, comparatively, very little discussion.

If you don’t have the votes to force through repeal, then you won’t have the votes to force through an amendment either – especially if it is, as you suggest, a wrecking amendment.

But you are wrong about that, too.

The power granted under Section 8 to enter premises is actually of very little relevance. People don’t actually tend to commit Hunting Act Offences within “premises”, so the Police would have very little need to enter premises to collect evidence and therefore removing that ability would be pointless.

So please try to understand, it is not possible to “nibble away” at the Bill if we don’t command a majority and, if we do, why bother when we can have full repeal even more easily.

To use your rather bizarre analogies: We aren’t the people chosen to play their “Deal or No Deal” box and we haven’t been selected by the producers to even go into the Dragon’s Den yet.

The problem we have, is that those who represent the cause, are not in my opinon too bright, (I could be quite colourful) when it comes to using the content of the act to effect it’s dismantling.

It really is time you chewed down a large humility pill.

It is YOU that has been wrong in all these matters, not the people who represent the cause.

Everyone makes mistakes but the real sin is refusing to learn from them.

You don’t even acknowledge yours, you just go babbling off in a slightly different direction.

 

[Herne]

Herne, just stop it for gods sake................................join the REAL world--

To the real men on the ground, the sabs are already out with their video cameras, hiding in hedges and police being called etc,isnt this what its all about-losing our freedom, i fear its going to be a bad year,and what sabs listen to politics??

Mixed messages, Rosie.

Seeing as I am one of the "real" people on the ground, it seems pretty likely that I am already in the "real world".

I am one of the people who in return for getting to wear shiny buttons has to try to keep a hunt going in these "bad years".

I'm not one of these "armchair generals" who pontificate about how “everything is fine as it is”, safe in the knowledge that it will never be them in the dock. I am one of the people who actually has to wonder, every time they see a police car coming down the road, whether it is on the way to break down my door on some trumped up Hunting Act charge for something that happened over 5 months ago.

I am one of the people who have to try to keep hounds and horses housed and fed and healthy and wages paid in the face of support – and therefore income – dwindling because people “don’t think its as good as it was” and succumb to all the sort of defeatist claptrap that is being spouted on this board as an excuse to do nothing because it’s easier to give in than to make an effort to fight on for what you believe in.

Don’t kid yourself, it’s us “real people on the ground” who are actually doing the job who know where the “real world” is – not the quitters and apologists.

 

[Fiagai]

Jeez Herne - do you always have to be so insulting to people....give it a break fcs

 

[Herne]

Jeez Herne - do you always have to be so insulting to people....give it a break fcs

Goodness gracious...

Which word is so insulting? Quitter, apologist or babbler?

If the former two, no names were mentioned. The only people who might be offended would the those who deep down feel that the terms are applicable to themselves.

If the latter, well, it is, to be fair, a pretty "mild" insult and this is, after all, the Nth time of explanation, with nary a hint of recognition.

 

[EAST KENT]

Jeez Herne - do you always have to be so insulting to people....give it a break fcs

Indeed, manners never hurt anyone,it does`nt do the cause any good at all.

 

[JanetGeorge]

Indeed, manners never hurt anyone,it does`nt do the cause any good at all.

And Herne certainly doesn't need to take lessons on manners from ANYONE on this forum! It appears that facts are insults if you disagree with them. The people who HARM the cause are not people like Herne (who actually works pretty tirelessly for it!) but those whose tirades against the CA, the MFHA, our friendly Conservative MPs AND other hunt supporters show our enemies just how easily we can be divided!!

 

[combat_claire]

Mixed messages, Rosie.

Seeing as I am one of the "real" people on the ground, it seems pretty likely that I am already in the "real world".

I am one of the people who in return for getting to wear shiny buttons has to try to keep a hunt going in these "bad years".

I'm not one of these "armchair generals" who pontificate about how “everything is fine as it is”, safe in the knowledge that it will never be them in the dock. I am one of the people who actually has to wonder, every time they see a police car coming down the road, whether it is on the way to break down my door on some trumped up Hunting Act charge for something that happened over 5 months ago.

I am one of the people who have to try to keep hounds and horses housed and fed and healthy and wages paid in the face of support – and therefore income – dwindling because people “don’t think its as good as it was” and succumb to all the sort of defeatist claptrap that is being spouted on this board as an excuse to do nothing because it’s easier to give in than to make an effort to fight on for what you believe in.

Don’t kid yourself, it’s us “real people on the ground” who are actually doing the job who know where the “real world” is – not the quitters and apologists.

Well said Herne.

 

[combat_claire]

Indeed, manners never hurt anyone,it does`nt do the cause any good at all.

It would appear that rudeness is permitted when it is your little gang on this forum that are throwing around the insults. When challenged you all whine that it was meant with humorous intent or is justified because the person who disagrees with your viewpoint is a 'troll'. Yet when someone who has been on the sharp end of hunting for well over a decade stands up for himself against unjustified criticism from your posse he is accused of rudeness.

The double standards of the playground are alive and well....quite frankly it is pathetic.

 

[rosie fronfelen]

thankyou Herne my husband IS also a huntsman,keeping things running ona shoestring---

 

[EAST KENT]

Well said Rosie,are you totally fed up with this acid drop as well? Being foul to other hunting or ex hunting people really is`nt gaining anything Herne,certainly not goodwill,on which hunting has always depended .Now ,just take a sugar lump or two and by being less aggressive you may find we all are reasonable minded people.Remember ..aggression will always invite aggression in return.
A DECADE?? Is that ALL

 

[JanetGeorge]

Well said Rosie,are you totally fed up with this acid drop as well? Being foul to other hunting or ex hunting people really is`nt gaining anything Herne,certainly not goodwill,on which hunting has always depended .Now ,just take a sugar lump or two and by being less aggressive you may find we all are reasonable minded people.Remember ..aggression will always invite aggression in return.
A DECADE?? Is that ALL

EAST KENT - don't you see a slight contradiction between your pathetic little lecture aimed at Herne - and your own rudeness and aggression. I have NO idea who you are - or what you have actually DONE in terms of real support for hunting. I know who Herne is - and combat_claire too - and if all of you had done a tenth of the excellent PR work those two have done since well before the ban, there might not have been one!

There is nothing 'reasonable minded' about some of your contributions to this forum - and there are a few others who could join you on the 'silly step'!

Any intelligent anti (and thankfully there aren't many) would take great encouragement from some of the stupidity illustrated on this forum!!

 

[combat_claire]

A DECADE?? Is that ALL

I wasn't aware that you wanted his full CV. As it happens my reference to 'over a decade' referred to his current employment - he has been part of other masterships prior to this and has previously hunted hounds and whipped in for a variety of packs from around the age of 14 not to mention hunting from a very young age. Then there is his voluntary work with Vote Okay and the BFSS/Countryside Alliance. Not that he has anything to prove to you, Rosiefronfelen, Fiagai and Judgemental but if you still think that shows a derisory lack of commitment then I am unsure as to how much more one individual could be expected to do...

It is very easy to sit behind a keyboard and poke fun at someone who is out there on a daily basis doing the hard work to keep hunting going a lot harder to stand shoulder to shoulder with these people and give them the support they both deserve and need.

 

[Alec Swan]

It would appear that rudeness is permitted when it is your little gang on this forum that are throwing around the insults. When challenged you all whine that it was meant with humorous intent or is justified because the person who disagrees with your viewpoint is a 'troll'. Yet when someone who has been on the sharp end of hunting for well over a decade stands up for himself against unjustified criticism from your posse he is accused of rudeness.

The double standards of the playground are alive and well....quite frankly it is pathetic.

Your rebuke has merit.

Alec.

 

[Herne]

thankyou Herne my husband IS also a huntsman,keeping things running ona shoestring---

Then if you, of all people, have lost hope, I think that is a great pity.

Personally, I will not give up at least until the Tories lose an election - whilst they are still in power and still committed to repeal, I shall keep fighting for it, because it is worth fighting for.

 

[Fiagai]

....your little gang on this forum
The double standards of the playground are alive and well....quite frankly it is pathetic.

Welll yes quite CC
Pot, Kettle and Black come to mind on the mention of little gangs

.... Not that he has anything to prove to you, Rosiefronfelen, Fiagai and Judgemental but if you still think that shows a derisory lack of commitment then I am unsure as to how much more one individual could be expected to do...
.

Thankyou for the mention...

Your solicitation is endearing CC. Whatever paragon of virtue you may believe someone to be or otherwise it is not what was said, it is how it was said....

Putting forward an arguement is to be welcomed, insulting and attacking ops is not...

so I will repeat

...give it a break fcs​

 

[JanetGeorge]

Whatever paragon of virtue you may believe someone to be or otherwise it is not what was said, it is how it was said....

Putting forward an arguement is to be welcomed, insulting and attacking ops is not...

so I will repeat

Having re-read Herne's posts, I can find NO evidence of him 'insulting and attacking' anyone. I see signs of exasperation - certainly - but who wouldn't be exasperated!!

Herne and I (both of us with considerable first hand knowledge/experience of how the political process works - particularly where Hunting Acts are concerned) have explained - largely in words of one syllable - exactly WHY we can't progress with repeal at this time! You shout HIM down and insult him (and largely just ignore me! ) Funnily enough, I have probably 'insulted' some of you FAR more than Herne has - because thankfully I don't have to watch my P's and Q's anymore and can say what I damn well think!!

And what I think is that a few of you are a gift to the anti-hunt campaign! When I was heading the media campaign at the BFSS, I had a list of Masters (and others) I would cheerfully shoot, because everytime they opened their mouths it was an own goal! Herne was one of a handful of people I trusted to handle an interview or debate without *******ing it up! Thank goodness that hunting does have people like Herne - when the time comes to push for Repeal, I know he will be there doing the job well! I just hope that some of you stay out of the way!