The secret horse

Orangehorse

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The breed nearly died out as the USA Army rounded them up and shot all they could find, as a tribe of troublesome indians was breeding and riding them and they were superior horses - it was done to defeat the indians obviously.

Some people managed to track down surviors and keep the breed going.
 

kez81

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Its funny I have a Nez Perce friend who always says spotted horses were there before even man set foot on the land. The lady looks to have proved him right. Very exciting for the Appoloosa breed I think.
 

Suechoccy

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Interesting … trying to prove that Appaloosas came not from Spanish stock by sea with first settlers to US but from Asian stock who walked across the land bridge that used to exist between Asia and America.

Those scenes from kyrgyzstan were very similar to scenes I remember when I was lucky enough to ride Mongolian horses in the Altai Mountains in 2008. Mongolian horses come in all colour combinations, including spotted, too.

And in Iceland last September, I saw spotted examples in the Icelandic breed.

So I shall muddy the waters by saying that as Icelandic horsies also can have Appaloosa colouring and they tolt (the woman in the tv programme said Appaloosas have sclera, mottled anus area, and do the Indian Shuffle, a 4 time pace)… so maybe Icelandic horses are the ancestors of Appaloosas?

Or maybe the Asiatic horses (kyrgyzstan or Mongolia or both or the whole larger area of Asia) are the ancestors of both Icelandic and Appaloosas?

Sclera was also mentioned as an Appaloosa trait. Many coloured horses also have sclera. So are coloured horses the ancestors of appaloosas, or vice versa.

What bearing does mass migration like Attila the Hun or Genghis Khan have on horse breeding? (Mongolian horses can be spotted or coloured too). It must have had a huge bearing. Khan's empire stretched to the Danube, more than near enough to influence European horse breeding including Spanish.

interesting and thought-provoking.
 

Meowy Catkin

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Sclera was also mentioned as an Appaloosa trait. Many coloured horses also have sclera. So are coloured horses the ancestors of appaloosas, or vice versa.
To be pedantic, all horses have sclera, it's whether or not the 'white' of the eye is pigmented that is the issue. However, I don't think that the white sclera issue is that important really. Both of my purebred arabians have white sclera (the grey has completely black skin, so has no 'pinto/coloured' gene) and I believe that Peter Upton discusses sclera colour and the ancient strains of arabian horse in one of his books, but I haven't read it myself.
 

kez81

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To be pedantic, all horses have sclera, it's whether or not the 'white' of the eye is pigmented that is the issue. However, I don't think that the white sclera issue is that important really. Both of my purebred arabians have white sclera (the grey has completely black skin, so has no 'pinto/coloured' gene) and I believe that Peter Upton discusses sclera colour and the ancient strains of arabian horse in one of his books, but I haven't read it myself.

Yes it is true other breeds present with white sclera, my pure chestnut arabian has it too.
 

Orangehorse

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Just watched the whole programme on iPlayer. What a great outcome, wonderful story.
Just shows how "world history" has such a European slant.
 

snowstormII

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Just watched it back on iplayer. What an adventure, never mind what it does or does not prove. By the way girls (and boys!), she is definitely the same breed as us...a tough, horse loving, single-minded lady (person).
 

kez81

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I think it would be very intetesting to DNA test other Asian breeds and the Icelandic ponies to see how closely related they are. Maybe appies have more than one origin?The official history of the horse for example States that they originated and evolved in north america and spread into Asia via the land bridge where humans tamed them and then followed them back to america to become the first natives, before the land bridge disappeared. The horse then became suddenly became extint in america until the Spanish arrived. Problem with this story is that there are contemporary accounts by explorers and settlers that say there were thousands of horses in north america when they arrived. As the lady on the TV programme pointed out, that just doesn't happen over night so either they didn't really become extinct or there was a second crossing some how. Hell we know the vikings made it to north america and canada, and they used to bring ponies with them on their little ships, who's to say they didn't bring the original appies with them!
 

Evie91

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Another who thought it was a very interesting programme. Just felt sorry for the lady when she got really cold - film crew should have got her a thicker coat!

Wouldn't it be great if we could have more documentaries on the hI story of various breeds.
 

Orangehorse

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I think it would be very intetesting to DNA test other Asian breeds and the Icelandic ponies to see how closely related they are. Maybe appies have more than one origin?The official history of the horse for example States that they originated and evolved in north america and spread into Asia via the land bridge where humans tamed them and then followed them back to america to become the first natives, before the land bridge disappeared. The horse then became suddenly became extint in america until the Spanish arrived. Problem with this story is that there are contemporary accounts by explorers and settlers that say there were thousands of horses in north america when they arrived. As the lady on the TV programme pointed out, that just doesn't happen over night so either they didn't really become extinct or there was a second crossing some how. Hell we know the vikings made it to north america and canada, and they used to bring ponies with them on their little ships, who's to say they didn't bring the original appies with them!

https://tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2013/10/14/indian-horses-before-columbus/

Food for thought. Who to believe?
 

DanceswithCows

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I thought the premise and findings were a load of old rubbish. 'Appaloosas' are horses from the Palouse river territory - 'A Palousey' - and there are spotted (and gaited for that matter!) horses everywhere, who will obviously have mottled skin etc etc. The fact that appaloosas share genetics with steppe horses is completely unsurprising and proves nothing about how they arrived in america at all, does it? Most horses will share rather a lot of genetics with the steppe type. I think it was telling how they rushed through the results bit, and the chap leading the programme was completely ignorant, taking all his information from the woman who was biased to say the least. For it to have been proof they would have needed to prove that non appaloosa horses in america were significantly less related to the kyrgiz type than appys, that the 'non appaloosa' kyrgiz ponies WERE distinct to the spotted type and shown how related the groups were or were not to the spanish blood too...but that was never touched on.
 
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Cortez

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Sorry, got to agree with DanceswithCows; load of rubbish with no science just a lot of misty-eyed misinformation and wishful interpretation. There are spotted horses painted on the walls of the Caves of Lascaux (in France), and that's tens of thousands of years ago. There is NO archaeological evidence for horses in pre-Columbian/post land bridge America.
 

DanceswithCows

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I can believe there were maybe some horses that had made their way over with pre-columbian settlers with the vikings and it would make total sense for them to be icelandic/steppe pony type, probably gaited horses....but they would be of all colours and would contribute to other breeds just as much as the appy, and the appy owes as much to the spanish blood as other breeds too. Ridiculous to think they are an isolated breed and the only ones to make their way over the bridge OR sea, and remain 'pure' as a breed like that....
 

Mariposa

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Well, no matter what the hard facts or lack thereof, I loved the programme. I just wished they'd found Martin the horse!

Really enjoyable, wish there were more shows like that!
 

DanceswithCows

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I did *very* much enjoy the kyrgisthan bits - lifetime's ambition to get to steppe country and do some serious dzo-riding (yak/cattle hybrid) but also the ponies ;D
 

DanceswithCows

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To further dump on the lady's theory - she quoted the vast numbers of horses present when the settlers reported back as impossible to achieve in the time. Cattle and horses breed at the same rate and in a similar way - pretty much one baby a year, many females to a dominant male. Using Australia as an example, in 1788 five cows and two bulls were THE first cattle ever to set foot on Australian soil. they escaped. By 1810 that feral herd, when rediscovered, was over 5000 strong. From 7 animals to 5000 in 22 years. It's possible.
 
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Rapidash

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I think I remain undecided. Certainly the true history of which humans arrived in America and when is getting more and more complicated. Sounds like Vikings certainly were kicking about there for a while. Makes sense they took ponies along.

However I did think that article was hanging a lot on flimsy evidence. One picture looks like another, well so what. And if you breed enough horses long enough, eventually you'll get spotty ones. Or indeed tolting ones. It's how we got dalmatians from wolves.

Still there's enough there for me to wish there was more DNA research into this. I reckon that might answer questions. And if horses were around before the Spanish arrived, then there will be bones so where are they?
 

Caol Ila

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Good TV but bad science and pretty lazy history as well.

There is evidence that horses initially evolved in North American and that an earlier proto-horse crossed an earlier landbridge (they came and went with glaciation) from North America into Asia, where they evolved into equus caballus as we know it. The fossil record does not support any theory of herds of horses, spotted or otherwise, roaming the North American continent between 12,000 years ago, the last landbridge, and the introduction of the species by Europeans in the 1400s.

That said, it is arguable that early Asian or Viking explorers or seafarers -- before the 1400s -- could have ended up in the Americas before the Europeans (there is some evidence this happened) but it is purely speculation as to whether or not those people abandoned horses there. If they did, it would have been a small, isolated population, as I am sure there would be more accounts, from fossils, from Native Americans and earlier settlers, of vast herds. There isn't. The Lewis and Clark comment the program mentioned don't mean sh**t. Their expedition was in 1804. Europeans had been colonizing the Americas for more than 300 years at that point. A good bit of what is now the Western US had been kicked about between Spain and France throughout the 18th century, Spain having colonies in present day California and New Mexico from the 1500s. The reasoning behind the Lewis and Clark expedition was that in 1803, the US government bought a massive chunk of land west of the Mississippi from France and wanted to make an official survey of their new acquisition. It was not, as the Appaloosa program hinted at, untouched-by-European territory by any means. There were definitely horses in the new Western US at that time, but they were ones whose descendants had come with the Spanish and the French!

I'm not a population geneticist but I would hazard a guess that the DNA links between the Kyrgyz horses and the Apps does not prove a thing about this lady's crackpot theory. I wonder how many other breeds share genetic markers with Steppe horses, since that's where equus caballus came from. If the Apps share more genetics with the Kyrgyz horses than other breeds, surely it is more likely that horses were traded across the Eurasian continent and someone in Spain, France, Portugal, took a fancy to those spotted horses. NOW the population of that valley in Kyrgyzstan is pretty isolated, but historically there have been extensive trade routes from Europe to the Asian steppes and big military campaigns with shifting geopolitical boundaries, i.e. Alexander the Great. If that genetic material got to the breed we call the Appaloosa, it was probably through trade and conquest between Europeans and Asians rather than anything else.

The whole idea of purity is kind of bogus. The Appaloosa breed had to be revived in the 20th century by infusing it with QH, TB, and other stuff. The breed itself was established by a Native American tribe called the Nez Perce (from spotted horses they captured from the Spanish and the French, of course!). When the US government, in the 19th century, was pursuing its policy of genocide and removing the Native Americans from their lands, they rounded up the Nez Perce horses and shot all of the stallions they could find. The breed had to be brought back from near extinction by outcrossing to other horses in order to create enough genetic diversity.

Lastly, when I saw the "Indian shuffle" on the film, I thought, "Huh, that looks like a four beat canter." My horse is really good at the four beat canter when she's not engaged enough. Are you saying she's part App and it's the special gait of the pure App, rather than just a crap canter? No, in fact it is just a crap canter, and the horse on the film doing it as well. Here is what the Indian shuffle looks like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bvgnzzq9CTI. More along the lines of the flat walk or foxtrot you see in other gaited breeds, which is what I suspected.
 
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