The shame - am I the only person...

scally said:
Sorry maybe ought be clear here, on another planet at the moment,

Competant people see when there is something wrong, we tend to assess our horses each day and look at what may be causing a problem. A horse eating normally you would not concern yourself with a dentist.

A lot more harm seems to be done, by over feeding, over rugging, over everything rather than let horses be what they are very good at being and that is being horses. There is not one in my yard who would not react to some sort of pain, misbehave or be out of characeter if something was up, but it seems there is a new generation that needs to have everything checked, physios or chiros every two weeks and only then are they doing there best for their horses. Yet these are the grossly overweight, over fed, under exercised, kept in their stables for more than 20 hours a day in winter as owners cant cope with mud.

Excuse spelling also, brain is no longer willing.

hence

So cruelty comes in many forms
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Agree 100%. And do you not also think that many of these checks are asked for in order to validate the owners lack of ability? 'I can't ride my horse therefore something must be wrong with it?'

We had long, intensive (and expensive) physio for a horse that had a problem and also for a pony who hurt, and never hesitate to call a vet but do not have endless routine checks.

Our lot are bitless, which I think is much of the reason we do not have teeth problems, they also have fibre and forage based feed without added sugars. If people were to get their brain in gear and think about why there is a difference between today and the horses we looked after twenty/thirty years ago then I think they would begin to see it is the difference in routine care and feeding that creates many of the problems.

Misplaced and inapropriate kindness can be the biggest cruelty of all. Let them be horses, not overfed, over rugged and under-exercised toys.
 
Where were you people all living in the good old days?

35 years ago we certainly had outr horses teeth checked and rasped. We knew that they were likely to be worn unregularly and that there might be hooks and soreness there. Teeth were often done by the farrier - which was far from ideal, though we always uised the vet.

I certainly wouldn't use a back person on a regular basis unless there was a problem. But I am astounded that anyone could be proud that they neglect their horses welfare.

In the bad old days horses had multiple behavioural issues which were actually caused by pain and discomfort, now they get treated then they were beaten into submission or sent to the sales. Old horses were shot, simples and it was not uncommon to see saddle sores etc.
 
Oh and lets not forget that another reason horses then weren't as fat back then is because lots of them carried a good worm burden.

I actually agree that people faff and spend money unneccesarily on their horses, but cannot fathom why anyone would boast about not getting their horses teeth done, really shocked actually, it's no different to saying you don't bother worming.
 
I never did with my ponies when i was growing up, i had totally unhorsey parents and kept the ponies on a riding school with livery yard attached that had very old school ideas, home made colic drenches, benylin in the feed if they are coughing and many other funny things!

However nowadays i am quite obsessed with teeth checking, back checking, etc and she even has a shiatsu massage now and then!
 
Mine tend to get their teeth checked by the vet at the same time as annual jabs. Not that I wouldn't use an EDT, I have in the past, but the mare needs to be sedated anyway just to put anything in her mouth so it is easier to treat the vet as a one stop shop.
I have never used a saddle fitter and only use a chiro/back person if I identify that there is a problem.
 
I think it depend what you are expecting of your horse...
Annual tooth check is a must for all my equines, whether working or not. Apart from that, it depends what is being asked of them.
When my competition pony was competing up to 160km, she had regular saddle checks and physio sessions. If you espect a horse to carry you 100 miles at speed, believe me you need to look after it - the slighest discrepency in saddle fit, or slightly sore muscle could lead to being spun.
Most leisure horses are never asked to perform to their physical limits and don't require the intensive management of a high level competition horse. My 'leisure' ponies do not have regular physio or saddle checks, but I do have good relationships with respected professionals I can call on as necessary.
 
In all my years of horse owning, NEVER had a back person out. Saddlers yes if I think there is a problem, but then only a couple of times.

Teeth ARE checked once a year because one of my horses never needs anything, and another always does nees a float. The others tend to be every other year....

I have every confidence in myself that I can spot trouble before it gets too bad.....I am meticulous in everything with my horses, and so is my husband. Between us, I can safely say our horses needs are covered, and it shows in their health, and their perfomance.

:D
 
Ladyinred said:
Agree 100%. And do you not also think that many of these checks are asked for in order to validate the owners lack of ability? 'I can't ride my horse therefore something must be wrong with it?'

We had long, intensive (and expensive) physio for a horse that had a problem and also for a pony who hurt, and never hesitate to call a vet but do not have endless routine checks.

Our lot are bitless, which I think is much of the reason we do not have teeth problems, they also have fibre and forage based feed without added sugars. If people were to get their brain in gear and think about why there is a difference between today and the horses we looked after twenty/thirty years ago then I think they would begin to see it is the difference in routine care and feeding that creates many of the problems.

Misplaced and inapropriate kindness can be the biggest cruelty of all. Let them be horses, not overfed, over rugged and under-exercised toys.
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I couldnt agree with both posts more.

I believe we interfere too much.

As already addressed, an experienced owner will notice changes in their horses whether it is slight or exaggerated.

I recently let my mare go 4 weeks of being lame and did not call the vet. What would the vet say?? A bit of muscle damage, let her rest?? She was not in any pain, still cantered to the gate for a feed and bullied the others. She lives out and so I have left her well alone. She has recovered well. Farrier checked her leg over when trimming her feet and advised that there are no problems and I had done the best thing for my horse which was to let her rest.

However, I do believe there are times when a vet IS needed and at these times I would not hesitate but for a touch of lameness when horse isnt in pain, then I am comfortable leaving them to rest and to see how they go.

I have family who although I dont speak to due to their cruelty (beating) of animals, they never have their horses teeth done, they feed fibre nuts and sugar beet and hay, they live out on poor grazing, never have their feet trimmed, have never seen a vet and they never seem to have any problems!
 
My horses all get their teeth checked twice a year by the vet when we have our bi-annual flu inoculations. They are also wormed twice a year, unless someone is spotted rubbing their tail excessively which has happened once in the 15 years I have been looking after this lot. Four of my six are in their early twenties and the other two in their teens. I have never had their backs checked, never had saddle sores or sore backs. None of them have behavioural problems except for normal freshness due to lack of work ! They all live out 24/7 and are ridden three times a week on long 2-3 hour hacks. None of them are high level competition horses. The vet will be called should there be the slightes doubt about anything.
 
From my youth I remember nothing of dentists or back people.

These days my horses teeth are checked every six months and their backs checked every six months; saddles are checked annually unless one is going through a growing phase - Dizz has had three (maybe four) saddles since I got her. The saddler knows her job much better than I do. The person who put a saddle on her before me obviously thought they knew what they were doing - Dizz now has a white saddle sore mark :(

I know nothing about teeth, other than Dizz has four growing inwards; if she wasn't checked then the first I would know would be a cut tongue. Not willing to wait for that to happen. Oh, I wouldn't have known about the four if I hadn't had an EDT out.

Physio has made my grumpy horse happy and comfortable again. I used to go for regular chiro sessions and it wasn't until after it that I realised I had been wonky and had been slightly compensating for it, so I use the same rationale for the horses :D. Seems to work for us :D

My bank balance would love it if I knew all I needed to know about saddles, teeth, backs, et al, but I don't, therefore I pay for the experts :)
 
Phil has his teeth done for the first time in feb 2009 (as an 8 1/2 year old). The dentist said "see you in 8 years" :p Due to living a more natural life, not being fed hard food or much hay, he was using his teeth as nature intended so no problems.

I had them checked this summer again as he was chewing the bit. he was fed and had hay this winter. It may have just been a coincidence but he needed more work done...
 
I had never even heard of the existence of "back people" for horses until I came to England. I presume many people in Ireland do use them, just not the ones I know!

The horses over here are always "putting their back out/doing a shoulder/hip/whatever" which is strange as I can't pinpoint any major management differences.
 
Starbucks said:
I've had my horse for coming up for 6 years now and in that time I've never had his teeth, back or saddle checked. :o

Also never had any kind of full vet work up, physio etc....

Think a teeth check is in order.. but I'm not feeling guilty about the others?
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If it aint broke, then dont fix it.

having said that, its total hogwash to think a horse could "put its pelvis out" "has bones out in its back/shoulder/neck"

"if" it has, it would need a bullet, not a 8stone, fresh out of college, yarn spinner to put it "back in"......

now, muscle damage...i can go with that...

i believe that the problems arise from management these days...most are kept "on livery", are over fed, under worked, turned out on old dairy farms that have diversified, so mill pond flat with lush grazing.
most horses these days haven't done a decent days work in their lives, so are prone to skeletal/muscular problems because of their lifestyle
 
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I have the chiropractor once every year/year and a half.

Dentist every year (he had a lot of powerwork done and work needs checking)

And I have the saddler as we change season, i.e when he fills out a bit in spring summer and when he trims down a bit again in winter. Have my reasons for doing so but wont bore you all!
 
I never had the dentist to my ponies 30 + years ago, I do get the current lots teeth checked annually now but they are all beyond middle age. I did lose 2 ponies with laminitis in the 60s and 70s, so it was definitely about then, but I think ponies worked a lot harder so this probably helped. I often used to hack 5 miles or more to a show, compete all day and hack back, they wereonly kept on grass so didn't really get overweight.
However, I don't altogether think its a bad thing that we now have more knowledge to keep our equines fit and healthy for longer. When I was young there weren't the horses around in their 20s plus that there are now, like people the longer they live the more health issues they may have.
 
scally said:
Sorry maybe ought be clear here, on another planet at the moment,

Competant people see when there is something wrong, we tend to assess our horses each day and look at what may be causing a problem. A horse eating normally you would not concern yourself with a dentist.

A lot more harm seems to be done, by over feeding, over rugging, over everything rather than let horses be what they are very good at being and that is being horses. There is not one in my yard who would not react to some sort of pain, misbehave or be out of characeter if something was up, but it seems there is a new generation that needs to have everything checked, physios or chiros every two weeks and only then are they doing there best for their horses. Yet these are the grossly overweight, over fed, under exercised, kept in their stables for more than 20 hours a day in winter as owners cant cope with mud.

Excuse spelling also, brain is no longer willing.

hence

So cruelty comes in many forms
Click to expand...

Totally agree!!!
The amount of people in my area who feed their ponies TWO full bucket of chaff and sugar beet every day is ridiculous!!! The ponies are fat enough without getting fed...their stupidity resulted in me and friends having to call a vet and the RSPCA out this summer to have a 5 yr old pony PTS due to lami, she was dying in front of our eyes, in so much pain and the owner had been up a few hours before and "didnt know anything was wrong" even though the pony was lying down, spasming and couldnt move!:mad:
My girls are out until the weather gets really bad, they`re rugged when it lashes down in a lightweight sheet and they`ll be fed when needed.
i do however get their teeth checked regulary but thats because one had a botch job done when she was younger...
saddle fitter has been up recently because the cb had a new saddle so i got the other girl checked...
never had a back man but know what to look for IF one was needed.
The vet comes when needed, injury, boosters etc.....
Now my old horse was a totally different story, he had his boosters by the vet and that was it, no teeth done, no back man no saddle fitter....studry section d`s :)
 
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Don't knock those of us who choose to take advantage of the new care and regimes. Old ways are NOT neccesarily better. I have had horses for years and years as now well into middle age and I always ALWAYS had my horses teeth done annually and my saddles checked. So you guys who boast you don't need a saddler - do your saddles never need reflocking? As for a back person - yes I also have a really good back/muscular guy who sees mine every 6 months. Preventative and also, Jose's feedback is invaluable when working on my horse. My old mare is coming home for retirement and Jose will see her asap to keep her comfy (she has had an excellent loan home and my loaner has given me the complete check list of issues) Oh and shock horror, last time round I had a really elderly horse I had annual MOT checks from my vet to check how he was doing in terms of things I couldn't see (heart etc) and that was, oh let me see, over 20 years ago. Can happily cope with most basic things to avoid my vet but won't hold back if I think hes needed.

So each to their own, but putting your point across rather strongly doesn't mean we all have to agree or that you are right!
 
Misinterpreted said:
I can't remember any lami cases when I was growing up. I had a Section A as my first pony. I hunted him! He lived until he was an ancient old thing, never had lami. I can't remember him ever needing the vet. Lots of my friends also had native type ponies too and I don't recall them having it either.

The yard I am on now, nearly all the native ponies there are laminitus prone if there grazing isn't strictly managed, and the yard has starvation paddocks especially for them.

That is odd. Why would there be more laminitus now, compared to 25-30 years ago?
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all those years ago, horses weren't put on cow grazing that had been fertilised etc so the quality of grazing was poorer also we use to ride every where for much longer. with more cars on the road we have more danger and kids don't have the freedom
 
We do teeth regularly because my OHs gelding is like jaws (think super sharp, btu also will come away in your hands). We have the mare done at the same time jsut ebcause really.

My little one (done by VictoriaEDT on here) we werent gonig to bother with but v pleased we did as she was really very sharp through her teeth.

We only have back and saddle done if there is a problem i.e. acting up or pain, bald patches appearing etc.
 
nativeponies said:
having said that, its total hogwash to think a horse could "put its pelvis out" "has bones out in its back/shoulder/neck"

"if" it has, it would need a bullet, not a 8stone, fresh out of college, yarn spinner to put it "back in"......
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i totally agree here... i have to stifle a giggle when i hear the chiropractor tell a client that their horse's back/pelvis is 'out'... if that were the case, it'd be crippled... it may have slight rotation or tilt.... but to describe a pelvis as 'out' implies it had actually come apart...

also, i heard our chiropractor tell 2 clients that their horse had a 'loose' ligament floating about on their spine... um... again, the horse would be crippled!

don't get me wrong, i think there is a time and place for chiropractors. they can be ace, and sort horses out. but... there does seem to be a real market for chiropractors to come out fortnightly... ask any vet to approve that kind of work, and, unless the horse IS crippled... i'm 99% sure the vet would say no... which means the chiropractor is working illegally... :eek:

if your horse needs its bones pushing back into place fornightly.... there is something seriously wrong with your horse! and you should be addressing WHY the bones are being moved... hence, muscle therapy should be looked into (and i'm not just saying that because that's what i do... the reason i do it, is because i believe this...)

sorry OP, off on a slight tangent... :D
 
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I don't believe I am a bad owner because I get his teeth rasped and jabs done (annually), his saddle re-flocked and a chiropractor out to him twice a year.

I don't pretend to have professional training and knowledge, but I am a competent owner and rider. There is nothing outwardly wrong with my horse - he has never bucked, reared, kicked, bitten, got lami or showed any signs of discomfort or pain when being tacked up or ridden. He lives out full time and is still naked, he is hardly 'pampered'.

So I will not apologise or feel like a muppet because I choose to give the best care I can.

I think you'll find it's very few pros who leave it to chance with their horses, re back people/saddlers etc.
 
siennamum said:
Oh and lets not forget that another reason horses then weren't as fat back then is because lots of them carried a good worm burden.
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i actually think this is one of the problems nowdays- over worming - yes i do agree they need to be wormed to a certain extent - but not to the extent they are nowdays - a small worm burden is natural and does keep weight down - i wonder if the zero tolerance to worms mentality nowdays is causing the obease horses and ponies?!

i'm afraid i'm someone who dose have the back lady (sport massage) and saddler out often - but my horse came unridable and scared due to badly fitting saddles ;)
i also get her teeth done when i can feel hooks etc
i have never however had her vetted - and i'm pretty sure she'd fail flexion tests = but she's sound enough to win local shows, do a good dressage test and hunt for a day with no problems the following day ;)

ETA - i also kleep her out 24/7 365 in any weather full hunter clipped - shock horror = and i tell you what - she;s thriving from it!
 
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QR

Shoes done every 5-8 weeks depending on time of year. Teeth done every 6 months (she's old, was annual before that). Saddler only when fitting a new saddle, then I check it myself. Had physio on my old horse, after she was hit by a pick up truck and had a badly healed broken pelvis (untreated at the time, before I bought her). Friend is a chiropractor so checked her over for me, she was basically fine, that's the only time she's been checked in nearly 30 years!! Worm every 3 months, which is a yard rule, otherwise I'd have 6 monthly worm counts done/worm if she was dropping weight etc. She's rugged according to weather, and bearing in mind her age and the fact she's from Argentina and not really designed for the British winter. Vet is called only when treatment is required (antibx, bute, stitches etc). I did ask vet to check her over last year, but only because he was out to sedate her for her teeth anyway. He said the only thing wrong with her was her age! Oh, and she's fed according to her weight, I condition score her once a week (she drops weight quickly) and feed accordingly. She gets as much hay as she'll eat, then hard feed on top of that if she needs it.

So if horses require all these routine checks (and don't even get me started on expensive and unnecessary surgery!!), why is my horse healthy, happy, fit and well aged 29? She only gets the essentials, no real extras, but she's fine. And yes, I happily admit to being rather old fashioned and letting horses be horses. Not forgetting treating every horse as an individual, something which is sadly lacking in the horse world today.
 
I bought a horse from an 'old fashioned', knowledgeable owner. Great little workman-like horse. Never seen a dentist, used yard tack and never saw a back man etc etc.
I spent the first few weeks of ownership sorting out the problems of neglect. Horse never complained of pain, loved to be ridden but her teeth were so sharp they had caused sores inside her mouth. Her back had muscle wastage through badly fitting tack and being ridden incorrectly. Their were numerous other little problems all due to a lack of attention and the attitude of 'it'll be alright, chuck it out in the field for a few days'.

There is a balance between doing too much and not doing enough. Somethings need a specialist, mine all get teeth checks done routinely, saddles are fitted by a master saddler and re flocked as required. Backs are done if I see a problem and farrier does each one according to need, not as a group.

For novice owners, experts are often vital and save money by preventing problems. Experienced owners sometimes delude themselves about their expertise. I don't rush to call the vet or backman, but they do have a place in prophylatic care too.
 
I have teeth done religiously because I have bought horses with dental issues and noticed how much happier they were in their mouth following the work.

Feet are done regularly by my most excellent farrier.

Jabs are annually or as Vet tells me.

I have never had a 'back person' either.

I can tell when a saddle fits well or not, and after some horror stories on here about saddle fitters I think I can do as well a job as most......
 
horserider said:
I bought a horse from an 'old fashioned', knowledgeable owner. Great little workman-like horse. Never seen a dentist, used yard tack and never saw a back man etc etc.
I spent the first few weeks of ownership sorting out the problems of neglect. Horse never complained of pain, loved to be ridden but her teeth were so sharp they had caused sores inside her mouth. Her back had muscle wastage through badly fitting tack and being ridden incorrectly. Their were numerous other little problems all due to a lack of attention and the attitude of 'it'll be alright, chuck it out in the field for a few days'.

There is a balance between doing too much and not doing enough. Somethings need a specialist, mine all get teeth checks done routinely, saddles are fitted by a master saddler and re flocked as required. Backs are done if I see a problem and farrier does each one according to need, not as a group.

For novice owners, experts are often vital and save money by preventing problems. Experienced owners sometimes delude themselves about their expertise. I don't rush to call the vet or backman, but they do have a place in prophylatic care too.
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someone talking sense!!! I still do not GET how you can NOT have your saddles regularly checked if just to make sure the flocking is fine - I check mine and can see when the saddles are starting to look a little "lean" - no chance of waiting till something actually goes wrong..
 
horserider said:
I bought a horse from an 'old fashioned', knowledgeable owner. Great little workman-like horse. Never seen a dentist, used yard tack and never saw a back man etc etc.
I spent the first few weeks of ownership sorting out the problems of neglect. Horse never complained of pain, loved to be ridden but her teeth were so sharp they had caused sores inside her mouth. Her back had muscle wastage through badly fitting tack and being ridden incorrectly. Their were numerous other little problems all due to a lack of attention and the attitude of 'it'll be alright, chuck it out in the field for a few days'.

There is a balance between doing too much and not doing enough. Somethings need a specialist, mine all get teeth checks done routinely, saddles are fitted by a master saddler and re flocked as required. Backs are done if I see a problem and farrier does each one according to need, not as a group.

For novice owners, experts are often vital and save money by preventing problems. Experienced owners sometimes delude themselves about their expertise. I don't rush to call the vet or backman, but they do have a place in prophylatic care too.
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I absolutely agree with this. Lots of horses worked when they were uncomfortable in the good old days - that's one thing we should be glad to be rid of.
 
siennamum said:
Lots of horses worked when they were uncomfortable in the good old days - that's one thing we should be glad to be rid of.
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Totally agree. The majority of owners didn't have veterinary insurance, nor was the equipment readily available to scan horses to investigate further, so a slight problem which was not conclusive was more likely to be pushed under the carpet.
I think we must have been lucky, we had a few dodgy experiences buying horses in the past, but all the ones we kept remained fit and healthy and were super performers.


posie_honey said:
i actually think this is one of the problems nowdays- over worming - yes i do agree they need to be wormed to a certain extent - but not to the extent they are nowdays
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This is interesting. Years ago, we wormed our horses with paste 4 time a year. But now we don’t use chemical wormers unless we need to. The fields are poo picked daily, and we have worm counts 3 times a year. Only if a count is positive is the horse wormed.

I’m a little surprised at the number of people who don’t have regular teeth checks. The annual teeth rasp and check has been instilled in me (from years ago) as being as important as good farriery. I got really excited one year, because the Dentist told us the last horse he rasped the previous day was Desert Orchid, and he was using the same tools! I was a teenager and I phoned all my friends up to tell them afterwards. Ha ha. How sad was I lol :D
 
Misinterpreted said:
I must say, people certainly never used to have all these checks, the same as we do at the yard I'm at now.
Going back 25 - 30 years ago we just had annual teeth checks, and a tetanus jab, we didn't have flu jabs back then either, and we wormed them with paste 4 times a year. If a horse had a swelling, or a cut, we'd hose it and treat it ourselves without calling the vet usually. (I spent a lot of my youth cold hosing legs). We very rarely ever had a vet out it seemed.

Now, the horses at the yard I'm at have twice yearly teeth checks, annual chiropractor back checks, twice annual neuromuscular massages, twice annual saddle checks, annual tet and flu jabs, 3 times a year worm counts instead of giving a wormer unless the count is positive. Every slight irregularity seems to initiate an immediate call to the vet these days.

Strangely I clearly do not remember there being so many unsound horses back then, as there seem to be now.
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Oh wow! I am so pleased I am not alone in feeling that these days a lot of horse owners seem to "over do" their animals. I had a break for 10 years whilst bringing up kids and was amazed by the attention to detail that goes on now. Not that it is really a bad thing but sometimes it is best to leave horses to be horses. If it aint broke.... don't fix it.
 
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