The stories we tell ourselves

[Caol Ila]

Some late night musings. Even with the best vets, physios, behaviourists, and animal communicators, unraveling their behavour is still a lot of inference and storytelling.

Today, we went to Red Bridge, a small bridge with red railings that's slightly wider than your average horse and has clangy metal underfoot. Hermosa has not done the Red Bridge before. Fin went straight across, and she slammed on the brakes. Due to the width and height of the railings, I did not want to be on board if she got weird in the middle of it, plus she can be braver when led, so I jumped off and tried to coax her over. She wasn't having it. Firmly planted. The park was busy, so we were in the way of other people using the bridge, and the flies were annoying. After 10 minutes, I decided it wasn't our day for Red Bridge, called chaps89, OH, and Fin back, and we went the other way. The bridge is not critical. There is another slightly longer trail between A and B.

Story #1: Horse was being stubborn and taking the piss. I should have made the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard by putting on pressure until she gave in and went over the bridge, which would have taught her an important lesson. She was rewarded for her stubborness by turning around.

Story #2: Horse was genuinely frightened by narrow bridge, despite seeing me, Fin, OH, and other people on it. Coercing her onto it would have taken a significant escalation of pressure and associating it with more fear. If she was okay enough with it, she would have gone, as she does with other things. By turning around, I showed that I will listen to her and won't intimidate her into doing things, and we will save the bridge for a day with less flies, more time, and more carrots.

We tell ourselves lots of stories about our horses. Do they come from an adversarial place, where the horse wants to challenge us, and we need to show it who's in charge? Do they come from a cooperative place, where we assume the horse wants to do what we ask, but don't feel they can for whatever reason? Is it both, and we need to figure it out the difference?

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I LOVE this.

Sometimes I think it both. It's all about feeling and being a good horse(wo)man. Some people have it more than others.

 

[Red-1]

Some late night musings. Even with the best vets, physios, behaviourists, and animal communicators, unraveling their behavour is still a lot of inference and storytelling.

Today, we went to Red Bridge, a small bridge with red railings that's slightly wider than your average horse and has clangy metal underfoot. Hermosa has not done the Red Bridge before. Fin went straight across, and she slammed on the brakes. Due to the width and height of the railings, I did not want to be on board if she got weird in the middle of it, plus she can be braver when led, so I jumped off and tried to coax her over. She wasn't having it. Firmly planted. The park was busy, so we were in the way of other people using the bridge, and the flies were annoying. After 10 minutes, I decided it wasn't our day for Red Bridge, called chaps89, OH, and Fin back, and we went the other way. The bridge is not critical. There is another slightly longer trail between A and B.

Story #1: Horse was being stubborn and taking the piss. I should have made the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard by putting on pressure until she gave in and went over the bridge, which would have taught her an important lesson. She was rewarded for her stubborness by turning around.

Story #2: Horse was genuinely frightened by narrow bridge, despite seeing me, Fin, OH, and other people on it. Coercing her onto it would have taken a significant escalation of pressure and associating it with more fear. If she was okay enough with it, she would have gone, as she does with other things. By turning around, I showed that I will listen to her and won't intimidate her into doing things, and we will save the bridge for a day with less flies, more time, and more carrots.

We tell ourselves lots of stories about our horses. Do they come from an adversarial place, where the horse wants to challenge us, and we need to show it who's in charge? Do they come from a cooperative place, where we assume the horse wants to do what we ask, but don't feel they can for whatever reason? Is it both, and we need to figure it out the difference?

I think there is a 3rd option...

I used to have to go over a Trip Trap Bridge. It was made of wood so it thudded: it was slatted so you could see through; it was over a chasm; there was a wooshy stream at the bottom; it was slippery at the entrance/exit; it was narrow with low sides; there were overgrown trees at the side, so you had to duck; it was downhill to step onto it, so that was spooky too and took our balance; it was middle of nowhere, so no support.

One of my horses took an instant dislike. It took 2 hours, but no escalation of force. We approached it and I had him think about the problem. We did a bit of back and forward, with him thinking about the problem. I then dismounted and we thought about the problem. Little by little he got closer (initially just getting close was an issue as the noise, downhill, slippery surface was too much). We hung out there. If he took a stap forward I would reward by turning away and chilling. If he was stuck, I would move his feet sideways.

Eventually, he crossed. 2 hours, no escalation.

Next time, we did the same but it took considerably less time. That day, we crossed back and forward with me leading, and by the end, I also rode over. That too took 2 hours in total, with time to chill out.

Next time, it will have been lead over, rode back, ride over. 5 minutes and all done. After that, the bridge wasn't a problem.

It was a horse where escalation pressure would probably have ended with us both in the chasm LOL.

He was an eventer so refusing to cross a bridge was not an option, as he may have to canter over an unfinished one and jump off the end.

I knew the bridge may be a problem, so went when I had all the time in the world. Yes, it may have been nicer to have a companion, but then I didn't know anyone who would want to hang out in a fly infested chasm LOL. Also, it taught us to work it out together. He learned that I would help him to work it out, keep him safe and not lose my head.

My current horse, BH, isn't the bravest, so when we had to cross a different bridge, the metal bridge over the canal, I did it very early morning as I knew he would likely take some time. That bridge is on the village main road, it's metal and thuds, has side mesh that vibrates and sounds like many cymbals when a horse thuds on the bridge, is over water, is on a bit of a blind bend. We went when it was quiet, had a foot walker who was confident to stop traffic and did similar. We waited it out, no escalation of pressure. Back and forward, rewarded for thinking forward. I had the foot soldier stomp on the bridge, so the cymbals set off before he had to be trapped with them. It made stepping on more scary initially, so it took longer, but then the CcchhhhhhCCcssssh sound wasn't as aversive when he made the correct decision.

2nd time we actually had a friend with a horse. 3rd time he led over. Now he does still hold his breath a little (not the bravest!) but goes straight over.

Time and patience, rewarding the try, that would be my suggestion. Only going to something new like that when you have the time and resources to work through it. No escalation of pressure, no increase in fear. A chance to teach her that you can make the good decisions and keep her safe: that if she even tries, she will be rewarded. So not waiting for the horse to do the action before rewarding, just that they are attending to the issue and trying. Then the pressure doesn't need to escalate.

 

[Jellymoon]

I think we tell ourselves many stories about our horses, yes, including that they actually ‘enjoy’ things we want them to enjoy, when actually, they are just Co-operating for an easy life! I don’t think there’s too much harm in that as long as there’s not abuse involved.

I also think we need to lose the ‘they are out to get us/taking the piss/being a dick’ attitude. These are human traits. They are just horses, I honestly don’t believe they think those things. I think they object to things they find physically or mentally difficult.

Also, I love the one that I hear do many people say: ‘I turned him away for a few days/months to digest and think about what lessons he’s been learning’. And you actually hear quite intelligent people saying this.

Tbf though, they do often come back better after a break, so I can see how one might think they’ve been thinking about their flying changes, but it’s probably because their body has had a rest and when you ask them again, they remember the cues and are physically more able to do it. Or they got mentally wound up before and are nice and relaxed after a rest.

 

[eahotson]

I think we tell ourselves many stories about our horses, yes, including that they actually ‘enjoy’ things we want them to enjoy, when actually, they are just Co-operating for an easy life! I don’t think there’s too much harm in that as long as there’s not abuse involved.

I also think we need to lose the ‘they are out to get us/taking the piss/being a dick’ attitude. These are human traits. They are just horses, I honestly don’t believe they think those things. I think they object to things they find physically or mentally difficult.

Also, I love the one that I hear do many people say: ‘I turned him away for a few days/months to digest and think about what lessons he’s been learning’. And you actually hear quite intelligent people saying this.

Tbf though, they do often come back better after a break, so I can see how one might think they’ve been thinking about their flying changes, but it’s probably because their body has had a rest and when you ask them again, they remember the cues and are physically more able to do it. Or they got mentally wound up before and are nice and relaxed after a rest.

Like a lot.

 

[DabDab]

Dunno, I think horses can have lots of things going on in their heads/instincts simultaneously and it is not as simple as one single thread of motivation behind their actions.

Often when a horse doesn't 'comply' with what we are asking there are several layers of stuff going on. So instinctive fear of the bridge, overlayed by not feeling completely confident with the handler, overlayed by an independent nature, overlayed by they didn't feel so good that day because tired/achey/commotion in the night/whatever, overlayed by etc etc....Often it is only when you get lots of layers of stuff going on that you actually get the "no". And then as a handler/rider you can work on the factors that you can make an obvious impact to, which are usually lessening the instinctive fear by using a lead etc to demonstrate safety of the situation, and increasing the confidence in handler by acting with clarity, asuredness and consistency but not escalating the situation

And no, I don't believe horses are ever "adversarial" (not sure if you really meant that word, it seems quite an outdated notion...)

 

[Caol Ila]

Yeah, my decision was to bail on trying the bridge that day. Red-1's third option will be used later. I thought she might follow me Fin/me over it, because she is generally quite brave about trying stuff, especially if you get off and lead it the first time. I didn't expect it to be a Thing. It definitely wasn't the day for a Thing, and I would not have tried it if I thought it might be. But there we were.

We'll go back with a plan now we know we need one. When the park is less busy, when she's not in season, when we're not being assaulted by flies, and I have endless time. Probably just with myself and OH. She is as likely -- if not more -- to follow us as another horse anyway, and having other people waiting while I do some very boring (hopefully) horse training, i.e. standing on a bridge, makes me feel stressed and impatient. Which is not a good headspace to be in for a tricky question.

She is a funny horse because 'scared' can look very similar to, 'Do I have to?' or 'Can I talk to that cute coloured cob in the field instead of go forward?' (I did say she was in season, and she loves coloured cobs!). However, in the case of the latter two, telling her to get on with it works pretty well. However, with scared, she glues her feet to the floor. But she doesn't do anything dramatic like rearing, spinning, dancing around. I have had people say to me, "She doesn't look scared," and I have to say, "Oh she is."

 

[Janique]

I used to work with elephants in Thailand, we were riding them on the neck and had some tourist with us. 5 elephants, all quiet and normally well behaved going on a treck in the forest.
Suddenly, they all stopped, putting to their trunk in the air, trumpeting, getting worried and refusing to go forwards.

One of the young mahouts started to get angry and used his hook to make his elephant move forward, without any succes.

The older mahout in charge told him to stop and said that the elephants must have smelt a danger and that we must turn around and go back.

The tourist were disapointed but we had no choice, it's impossible to make an elephant go when he doesn't want to.

We went back and later on, we learned that there was a forest fire only 3 km away from us. We never noticed anything but the elephants could smelt it from miles away !

Since that day, i firmly believe that if an animal doesn't want do something, there is often a good reason even if we mere human can't figure it out !

 

[JFTDWS]

I have a bridge like this which I have to cross to get to most of the local hacking. Both ponies traverse it happily. My mare crossed it with some convincing initially but has since decided it is evil. She will cross it on the way back, but is very reluctant on the way out. I could argue with her, but between low hanging branches and a drop / low railing into a deep, fast flowing river, I’m not inclined. So I ask her to engage with the idea, to approach it, but if she’s not going to walk over happily, I jump off and lead her. She always comes across in hand, and stands politely to be re-mounted.

I could decide she’s napping because she crosses it on the way home. Personally I think the approach is nicer on the way back and the lure of getting home outweighs the stress of the bridge. She isn’t the sort of horse to “look” scared, her idea of rebellion is to just drop anchor and clam up as much as possible. That certainly looks like “don’t want to” to an outsider, but the subtle stress markers are there so it just isn’t.

Similar to the elephant story, I’ve had several occasions where she has stopped unexpectedly and refused to move, because of a danger I wasn’t aware of - twice because of traffic / blind bend situations, once on a bridleway in the woods with people shooting. When she stops unexpectedly, I listen.

 

[Dexter]

I think we tell ourselves many stories about our horses, yes, including that they actually ‘enjoy’ things we want them to enjoy, when actually, they are just Co-operating for an easy life! I don’t think there’s too much harm in that as long as there’s not abuse involved.

I also think we need to lose the ‘they are out to get us/taking the piss/being a dick’ attitude. These are human traits. They are just horses, I honestly don’t believe they think those things. I think they object to things they find physically or mentally difficult.

Also, I love the one that I hear do many people say: ‘I turned him away for a few days/months to digest and think about what lessons he’s been learning’. And you actually hear quite intelligent people saying this.

Tbf though, they do often come back better after a break, so I can see how one might think they’ve been thinking about their flying changes, but it’s probably because their body has had a rest and when you ask them again, they remember the cues and are physically more able to do it. Or they got mentally wound up before and are nice and relaxed after a rest.

Actually, while they don't go away and think about it, they do go away and grow the neural pathways needed. Teaching them gets those started but it's not an instantaneous process. Leaving them a few days completes the pathways and the learning is more established. Same as for people.

 

[Pinkvboots]

We used to cross a bridge over the M25 when I rode in Epping it was horrible my mare hated it and I always got off and led her but only ever did it a few times as it wasn't a necessary route so I avoided it.

The noise of the traffic below was bad enough let alone the sound of them walking across it and I wasn't a fan of it either.

I remember taking Arabi on a sponsored ride and there was a very small wooden bridge he really didn't want to go on it, I got his front feet on it and he stood there shaking then just ran across it I do think he was genuinely worried about it.

I'm not a person to really make a horse do something if they seem genuinely unhappy or if they start to stressed and upset, I would rather leave it I just think we should make each outing a good experience I don't think it's good for me or the horse to get in a state.

 

[Caol Ila]

We used to cross a bridge over the M25 when I rode in Epping it was horrible my mare hated it and I always got off and led her but only ever did it a few times as it wasn't a necessary route so I avoided it.

The noise of the traffic below was bad enough let alone the sound of them walking across it and I wasn't a fan of it either.

There was a footbridge over the M80 near my last yard. It made clangy, hollow metal sounds as you walked and vibrated every time a lorry passed underneath. She had no problems going over this one. But a little tiny bridge over a bog? Nope!

 

[Pinkvboots]

There was a footbridge over the M80 near my last yard. It made clangy, hollow metal sounds as you walked and vibrated every time a lorry passed underneath. She had no problems going over this one. But a little tiny bridge over a bog? Nope!

Sounds a bit like my Arab's one is not bothered by farm machines or lorries, but if he sees a bicycle he has a proper melt down he hates them

 

[maya2008]

Only try new things when you have hours and hours if needed is my motto!

Some horses need you to be bossy, some need reassurance, some need you to wait it out. They are just as much individuals as humans are. I hope next time goes better!

Saying that, I wish they could talk. It has just taken me a few weeks to compare a lead rope to a picture of an adder, confirm there are adder populations on Dartmoor, try new pony with a ‘flat’ single coloured lead rope…and relax when she reacts to that more in the way I would expect! Phew!

 

[Tarragon]

One of the approaches to getting a horse to do what you want it to do, is to make what you want them to do an easier option than not doing it, by applying pressure. The hard bit is only asking for something that is reasonable and achievable to the horse at the time you ask, and the amount of pressure applied is appropriate to the horse and situation at the time you ask!
Story #1 sort of implies a rather hard-nosed approach by the rider, and you get the impression that the rider is asking too much and has to apply too much pressure to achieve it. I don't think that this achieves anything positive other than a cross and confused horse and a red-faced rider
I don't believe that any horse sets out to deliberately not do as asked in spite, and like Jellymoon above, I also don't like it when people refer to their horses using language like "they are out to get us/taking the piss/being a dick" - it seems disrespectful, unnecessary and wrong!

Story #1: Horse was being stubborn and taking the piss. I should have made the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard by putting on pressure until she gave in and went over the bridge, which would have taught her an important lesson.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I used to work with elephants in Thailand, we were riding them on the neck and had some tourist with us. 5 elephants, all quiet and normally well behaved going on a treck in the forest.
Suddenly, they all stopped, putting to their trunk in the air, trumpeting, getting worried and refusing to go forwards.

One of the young mahouts started to get angry and used his hook to make his elephant move forward, without any succes.

The older mahout in charge told him to stop and said that the elephants must have smelt a danger and that we must turn around and go back.

The tourist were disapointed but we had no choice, it's impossible to make an elephant go when he doesn't want to.

We went back and later on, we learned that there was a forest fire only 3 km away from us. We never noticed anything but the elephants could smelt it from miles away !

Since that day, i firmly believe that if an animal doesn't want do something, there is often a good reason even if we mere human can't figure it out !

My horse didn't want to move out of the way of a moving car, because there was a crisp packet reflecting on a puddle on the path.
Your story is lovely, but I'm not sure it can be carried over to a prey animal with a much less developed prefrontal cortex than an elephant.

 

[eahotson]

Like a lot.

Actually, while they don't go away and think about it, they do go away and grow the neural pathways needed. Teaching them gets those started but it's not an instantaneous process. Leaving them a few days completes the pathways and the learning is more established. Same as for people.

You might be right about the neural pathways.

 

[FlyingCircus]

It's always refreshing to hear the different approaches people have to horses.

Yesterday I was hacking on my boy. Despite feeling raring to go on our previous rides, he wasn't really into it yesterday. So I let him pick the route we took back until we were half an hour from home and then walked him in hand the rest of the way.

Did I need to? No. Was he lame/showing negative behaviour? No. But he wasn't feeling it and neither am I some days...!

 

[Tarragon]

It wasn't until I started running myself that I realised that some days were harder than others! I would wake up and just be lacking in energy. I wasn't ill or suffering, but I would just feel dull and heavy. I wouldn't have liked it if I had had a personal trainer just shouting at me to work harder! I was much more aware of my horse's energy levels after that

 

[Meredith]

Sometimes, they just know best.

On Friday I was lead pony on a walk and trot road exercise. Behind F were ride and lead TB types and another ridden TB.
Walking down the single track windy lane we met a car. Driver pulls into car hedge as far as is possible.
We pass safely.
A few yards further on F stops dead. I ask him to walk on.
Nope.
He takes one step forward and stops again.
I can hear the first car pulling away behind me.
Another car comes round the bend towards us a tad too fast and has to stop sharply.
Did F hear 2 engine sounds? Did he feel vibrations through the road?
Who knows?
I know one thing, he knew better than me.

 

[smolmaus]

My horse didn't want to move out of the way of a moving car, because there was a crisp packet reflecting on a puddle on the path.
Your story is lovely, but I'm not sure it can be carried over to a prey animal with a much less developed prefrontal cortex than an elephant.

Yeah, if you're scared of everything unfamiliar occasionally you will be correct to be scared 90% of the time it will be a weird leaf tho. Doesn't mean we don't have to respect that the fear is genuine! But we also don't have to tell ourselves the story that they don't have a logic processor the size of a pinto bean.

standing on a bridge, makes me feel stressed and impatient. Which is not a good headspace to be in for a tricky question.

This is what catches me out far too often. As soon as I get stressed I've already "lost" and thats my fault and my responsibility, not the ponys. I need that tattooed on the inside of my eyelids, if I'm already hungry or tired or stressed *I* need put away for the day.

 

[Red-1]

Actually, while they don't go away and think about it, they do go away and grow the neural pathways needed. Teaching them gets those started but it's not an instantaneous process. Leaving them a few days completes the pathways and the learning is more established. Same as for people.

I believe this, from my own observation. When I taught people, I would finish with something positive and say, "we'll bank that." After the weekend or whatever it would be cemented. Even if someone didn't 'get' something but could say what we were trying, leave it for a weekend and it would be as if they'd been practicing. The brain had been playing it "on the B screen" as a wise friend called it. They explained it as a separate tab on a computer, so not visible or in your thoughts, but playing on the B screen all the same. Same for me, if I have a report or speech to write. I think about it, go muck out and when I come back, I have new ideas. They come to me when mucking out or whatever, my B screen was obviously till working on it.

I believe it was Mark Rashid (but could be another wise trainer) who said that the horse's brain doesn't have the left/right connections that ours do. They have far fewer. That is the reason they can walk past something on the way out, but not the way back - it looks different through the different eyes. They said to leave it 24 hours and it will have processed. They also advise teaching something new, like yielding quarters, to the right (or left) one day and then leave it for a day. When you come back, the connection will be partly made for doing it on the other rein. But, if you go straight from right to left in the same session, they are essentially learning it as if for the first time as there hasn't been enough time for left/right brain connection.

 

[Caol Ila]

Usually she is far more reliable and sensible than Fin -- hacking alone, etc. Tbh, I think if the bridge had been the same width as all the other weird bridges we have met, she would have gone straightaway. It isn't that much wider than the horse. Fin was never any bother with it, but for all his quirks, he is extraordinarily confident and skilled at judging footing and space.

If he'd been a coloured cob, she might have just followed! LOL. If she could choose her next boyfriend, it would be a coloured cob. Be an interesting cross....

Like JFTDW's mare, she will "drop anchor and clam up as much as possible." I like that phrase.

Back in the early 2000s, I watched a natural horsemanship trainer do a trailer loading demo. The horse was not happy about going in the trailer, and the trainer explained that he was going to 'make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard.' At which point, he used a flag to chased it around in little circles whenever it tried to turn away from the trailer and only let it rest when it would stand facing the trailer. The horse was getting quite worked up but eventually went in the trailer. For a while, it seemed like everyone was doing this. Applying extremely aversive amounts of pressure to get the horse to go where you wanted. I know there are plenty of trainers out there primarily relying on this, though I think it has gone out of fashion somewhat.

I did not find it that useful for my old mare, who was a tricky loader. Some trainer I had helping me used it once or twice and she went in. Great! But then she learned to amp up the adrenaline the moment you went near a trailer and would start running in circles around you, off her nut before you'd asked for anything. Not great! I moved here and no longer had access to a trailer, so I never did quite fix it. But getting her to stand calmly next to it and associate it with good things and not being chased in circles would have been where I'd start.

Then came the onrush of +R, and suddenly clicker training was the big thing. To be honest, I like +R in many contexts, and it might have got my horse over the bridge had I been prepared with a pocket of high value treats (carrots). However, I did, and still do, see tons of social media posts saying all -R is bad and you can train your horse with pure +R. I don't really buy that, either.

These days, I think people like Warwick Schiller and Andrea Mills at Mills Consilient Hosemanship are on a good track, kind of a middle ground that is horse centric. I use pressure-release but don't want to escalate the pressure to trigger the horse's fear/flight response. Too many people (including me, in more naive years) did that with Gypsum's trailer issues and it made a bigger mess. I like backing the pressure-release with the clicker. For Hermosa, anyway. It clarifies 'the yes.' And she is very polite, so she doesn't get wound up by treats (some horses do).

With Fin, you have to really get him to engage with you, and I haven't found clicker training that helpful. He is very, very good at overshadowing, taking the click/treat while seemingly accepting the scary thing, but he actually isn't okay with it at all. Counterconditioning fails because he disconnects his brain from processing the scary thing while accepting the treat and doesn't make the positive association between bridling (or whatever) and the treat. This post from Andrea Mills could be about him.

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Here's an example. When I first bought him, he was funny about accepting the bridle. He would raise his head and step back, with tight eyes and mouth. I tried counterconditioning it by giving him a treat with the bridle and asking him to lower his head. His bridling behaviour still showed signs of tension, but I could get it on, until one day I couldn't. He just said no. Would spin away from you in his stable. I had the vet out and all was copacetic. Then, after trying a few things, I figured out that if I took the bridle apart at the cheekpiece and put it on like a headcollar, he would accept it very quietly, head lowered, jaw relaxed. No treat needed. Cool! I did that for months. Then one day I tried putting the bridle on the 'normal' way, over the head, and he acted like a old school pony, even dropping his head to help.

Classical counterconditioning was useless in this case, but finding an approach that helped him genuinely feel okay about the bridle solved the problem on a much deeper level.

 

[oldie48]

If you had seen the way Mr D napped when he was younger you would never believe that he is now used to nanny the youngsters out on hacks. He'd spin, rear and given the chance, go home at speed. His owner is an extremely competent rider as is owner's daughter, so they stuck it out and when he napped, once they had gained control they just asked him to go forward. They never turned round, never abused him but very firmly asked him to get on with it. Years later and I am riding him out accompanying his owner on her young Spanish mare, who can be tricky in traffic. Mr D is absolutely rock solid in traffic, might spook at a leaf but doesn't rear and hasn't taken anyone home at speed for very many years. The mare is getting increasingly confident, I will still shield her from big stuff and give a lead when we feel she needs it but gradually she's improving and trusting her rider to keep her safe. I remember watching event horses leaping off ski jumps without knowing where or what they would land on but they did it because they trusted their rider and had been trained to respond to the rider's aids.

 

[palo1]

To be honest, if I can't see or understand why a usually sensible horse is refusing to go forwards then I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt. Tigers and Lions are not likely in the UK but there are a number of hazards that a horse is far more alert to than I am!! If a horse is planting/napping at something 'reasonable' it can be really interesting to work out why. New stuff can be either reasonable or unreasonable lol!! My mare HATES the tiny overgrown runnels that have water in on the hills here. She is not ditchy and is generally bold but in some places she will have none of the suggestion of just stepping over a 3 inch drain. I let her have that as I have no idea on any occasion how wide or deep that drain or hole potentially is. I thank her for noticing!

 

[palo1]

I believe this, from my own observation. When I taught people, I would finish with something positive and say, "we'll bank that." After the weekend or whatever it would be cemented. Even if someone didn't 'get' something but could say what we were trying, leave it for a weekend and it would be as if they'd been practicing. The brain had been playing it "on the B screen" as a wise friend called it. They explained it as a separate tab on a computer, so not visible or in your thoughts, but playing on the B screen all the same. Same for me, if I have a report or speech to write. I think about it, go muck out and when I come back, I have new ideas. They come to me when mucking out or whatever, my B screen was obviously till working on it.

I believe it was Mark Rashid (but could be another wise trainer) who said that the horse's brain doesn't have the left/right connections that ours do. They have far fewer. That is the reason they can walk past something on the way out, but not the way back - it looks different through the different eyes. They said to leave it 24 hours and it will have processed. They also advise teaching something new, like yielding quarters, to the right (or left) one day and then leave it for a day. When you come back, the connection will be partly made for doing it on the other rein. But, if you go straight from right to left in the same session, they are essentially learning it as if for the first time as there hasn't been enough time for left/right brain connection.

IF ONLY people would apply this knowledge about processing more often. Horses in particular (but also people) need proper amounts of cognitive processing time and for the development of new neural pathways. Bashing away at something new without time for processing is both pointless and upsetting.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I have found with Dex that if he plants/spooks or does his full body tense up, I just stand and wait and eventually I can see his brain going round and he starts to think and then usually will go up to it and put his nose on it (which to date I have been giving him a treat for). That is as long as it's not flapping or making a noise, which I understand, as it's the same as upping the pressure before he's processed, it just takes longer and he might have to process it from a few more steps away. I don't ask any more of him while he is processing, I just scratch him on the neck and wait, then when I can see his body relax I go to walk forward, if he comes then he's processed, if he's doesn't then he hasn't finished. I have found this to be 100% successful thus far in not escalating the situation, but then again I am pretty lucky that whilst he is quite worrisome about things, he is not prone to huge dramatics.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Here's an example. When I first bought him, he was funny about accepting the bridle. He would raise his head and step back, with tight eyes and mouth. I tried counterconditioning it by giving him a treat with the bridle and asking him to lower his head. His bridling behaviour still showed signs of tension, but I could get it on, until one day I couldn't. He just said no. Would spin away from you in his stable. I had the vet out and all was copacetic. Then, after trying a few things, I figured out that if I took the bridle apart at the cheekpiece and put it on like a headcollar, he would accept it very quietly, head lowered, jaw relaxed. No treat needed. Cool! I did that for months. Then one day I tried putting the bridle on the 'normal' way, over the head, and he acted like a old school pony, even dropping his head to help.

Classical counterconditioning was useless in this case, but finding an approach that helped him genuinely feel okay about the bridle solved the problem on a much deeper level.

Some people would see that as giving in to the horse and doing it their way. You have to be the boss and the horse does it your way! This way! The only way! (I'm being facetious). That thinking is all too common. It's not that the issue is being avoided or that it's a sign of weakness from the handler at all.

There are quite a few ways to get to the same end goal. I describe it like this:

Say that you're going from point A to point B and there are a few ways to get there. Sometimes you like to take the longer scenic route because you have time and the mindset. Mostly you take the direct route because it is efficient and uses the least amount of fuel.

One day there was construction on the direct way which made it longer and more difficult. The scenic way was closed because a tree had fallen. You had to navigate a 3rd way to get there, and you did. You found a new way to get there.

No matter which of the 3 ways you take, you still ultimately arrive at the same destination. None of these 3 ways are technically "wrong" or "right" but rather fit for a specfic purpose. There can be more than one way to reach a final destination. Sometimes you have to find a new route, or reroute.

Eventually the construction was finished on the direct route, and you now had an efficient and smooth way to get there.

So with horses, we have to keep that in mind. One day you just keep encountering roadblocks with the horse or the road is still under construction (your training is still ongoing), so you've got to reprogram your GPS and navigate a new way. It doesn't mean that it's wrong. You can't always take the same road. You can't always take the same approach with horses. You make just take the other way, until the construction is finished, and then you'll have a smooth and direct way to get there.

My youngster is a world traveler (trailers, lorry, and plane) but never truly learned how to load. He was easy/small enough to force on for a time or lure on with food. When it came time for him to properly learn I had to figure out which approach would be best for him. Get after him too much and he just leaps around on the end of the lead like a deer. If you're too lenient with him then he'll take a mile if you give him an inch. However, he can be curious and interested in what you're doing.

One day I walked into the trailer and he planted at the bottom of the ramp, but I just leaned against the divider and stood there, in the trailer, looking out the side window, casually, and in a bored manner. Like I gave zero f*cks and we'd stand here all day. After a minute he just began walking up the ramp and into the trailer. It's almost as if he was like, well, she seems comfortable in there and doesn't seem like she's coming out, or that we're going to have other options here, so let me come in there because maybe it's not a bad place to be, and she's not giving me the option to leave (go back to the field, or barn, or wherever). He also got to take it all in (some horses need a moment to process). It seemed like the most "interesting" option to him at the time vs standing at the end of the ramp. Would that have worked for all horses? Probably not, but I knew, for some reason, that it'd work for him. Some would say that I let him do it on his terms (and yeah, I kind of did!), or I should've done this or that, or I was too relaxed about it, but it was a learning environment and since then he goes directly on and off comfortably. I could've done it with force, but lost the comfortable aspect, I think.

We took the longer route, it was slower, but eventually the barriers came down, and the direct way (getting on and off quickly and easily) became available.

With a different horse or in an emergency I would've taken a different route. Same end goal, but a different journey. Some journeys are more meaningful than others and make you want to return to that destination.

There are some horses that the moment you relax, and give the "comfortable and I've got all day vibe" they just sort of...get it. I spent years with horse who lived with his hoof hovering over the panic button, and I learned that meant that I could have zero panic, drama, tension, forcefulness, or certain emotions, because he'd press that panic button. I learned that it's OK to choose your battles or a time and place for them. I learned that boundaries need to be clear, and you need to be firm and fair, but that doesn't mean forceful, overwhelming, or emotional.

We should open our minds and realize that we can take different roads to get there, or that there are some days when some roads just aren't passable, or that the destination simply isn't reachable on that day but we can come up with a plan to get there another day.

Probably using terrible analogies and metaphors here, but it makes sense in my head I'm probably telling myself all sorts of stories, but hey, my 2 year old is in a good place at the moment, so whatevs.

 

[bouncing_ball]

Think there is an art in knowing when to push and when to wait, and when to leave it for another day.

I do see people that back down too fast when horse isnt actually anxious. And horses that both lack confidence and push their owners around.

Equally I see people that push too hard with an anxious horse. It can be easy to do, particularly with a horse that introverts.

The balance of being an effective leader without being bully is quite hard to find sometimes.

 

[jules9203]

Slightly different but I have a mare (now retired) who would jump off the end of the ramp of our first lorry. Nothing else did. A few yrs on and she had been at the vets and we went to collect her. She was still a bit groggy from the sedation and she stood on the section she normally jumped over. Her hoof went straight through. She was fine but I totally trusted her instinct from then on