The stories we tell ourselves

[CanteringCarrot]

Think there is an art in knowing when to push and when to wait, and when to leave it for another day.

I do see people that back down too fast when horse isnt actually anxious. And horses that both lack confidence and push their owners around.

Equally I see people that push too hard with an anxious horse. It can be easy to do, particularly with a horse that introverts.

The balance of being an effective leader without being bully is quite hard to find sometimes.

Exactly this. Some of us have a good level of natural feeling or can pick up on these things easier.

One day someone told me that my young horse was nervous, but he was just having a young donkey moment of, "I don't wanna. Why do I have to do this." and the look in his eye was so indicative of this that it was almost comical. He was not scared. I swear he rolled his eyes at me and then did as I said. Cool as cucumber.

Other times people thought that my last horse was cool, as in relaxed, but he was really a pot of water about to boil over.

Misreading either of those two, could've been detrimental to the situation/training.

This is always why good instructors are worth their weight in gold, especially for those that just don't have this natural feeling and/or sense. You can learn and build skills and recognition, but it takes time and guidance.

 

[Pippity]

Then came the onrush of +R, and suddenly clicker training was the big thing. To be honest, I like +R in many contexts, and it might have got my horse over the bridge had I been prepared with a pocket of high value treats (carrots). However, I did, and still do, see tons of social media posts saying all -R is bad and you can train your horse with pure +R. I don't really buy that, either.

This idea that negative reinforcement is always bad is a widely-held misunderstanding that drives me up the wall!

Negative reinforcement is simply, "When the horse does what is asked, something is taken away." This can be something stressful like a flapping flag. It can be something as simple as a leg aid. Straightforward pressure-and-release is negative reinforcement.

Negative, in this case, doesn't mean, "nasty thing". It means, "removal of thing".

 

[DabDab]

This idea that negative reinforcement is always bad is a widely-held misunderstanding that drives me up the wall!

Negative reinforcement is simply, "When the horse does what is asked, something is taken away." This can be something stressful like a flapping flag. It can be something as simple as a leg aid. Straightforward pressure-and-release is negative reinforcement.

Negative, in this case, doesn't mean, "nasty thing". It means, "removal of thing".

I agree but think that the way people describe negative reinforcement contributes to that. Like you say, it is using the removal of something as a marker rather than the application of something as a marker, but a lot of people still describe it (and apply it) routinely as an escalation of unpleasantness until the creature being trained complies

 

[Abi90]

Horses have no pre frontal cortex so cannot apply logic to anything, therefore they cannot scheme or do things to take the mick. They literally don’t have the brain power.

They do have a limbic system though and feel emotions. And take the path of least resistance. So if a “naughty pony” bucks and then gets put back in the field when a small child falls off they learn “bucking means I can go in the field, where I would rather be”. There’s no malice. Its also why flooding them until they do what we want tends to work, they also don’t forget so will remember a horrible experience and try to avoid it.

And have a weird ability to mirror a human’s emotions, their heart and respiratory rate will drop so they feel calm if they are around a calm human and vice versa.

They also stack stress, so they will tolerate to a point then not cope anymore. Hence why some days things are fine but other days its not a problem, depending on which straw broke the camel’s back

Food for thought when considering training techniques

 

[SEL]

Unintended training.

My Appy has always been a tricky loader. She'll get in then whip round and demolish you as she exits at speed. She's now retired and I haven't really introduced her to the new lorry.

Baby cob took an hour to load on the way back from arena hire last week so the next day am and pm we did loading at home with pieces of apple as a reward. Both mares were in their stables watching.

Day 2 and Baby cob is walking straight on (the way to a cob's heart is through their stomach) & I've turned him out. Pop headcollar on Appy, lead her out of stable and find myself pulled towards lorry. She takes herself up the ramp and stands there sniffing it. After praise and a piece of the magic apple I reversed her back and turned her out. I'm not asking her to load but I have a feeling watching baby cob a few more times - getting his apple treat - and she'll be putting herself on.

She's a quirky horse. She freezes when something worries her and will explode if you try and push through it so needs to try and work it out. She's one of the brightest horses I've ever met but that actually makes her hard to work with because she needs to understand and reason and that's not a strength of her species

 

[Janique]

My horse didn't want to move out of the way of a moving car, because there was a crisp packet reflecting on a puddle on the path.
Your story is lovely, but I'm not sure it can be carried over to a prey animal with a much less developed prefrontal cortex than an elephant.

Yes, of course, you are right, you cannot compare horses with elephants.

Their are seriously smart and have a great sens of humour. Having the chance to work with them at the elephant hospital was amazing.

Along with dolphins, monkeys, they have their breast between their front legs, and they are using tools too, a sure sign of intelligence.

 

[Time for Tea]

IF ONLY people would apply this knowledge about processing more often. Horses in particular (but also people) need proper amounts of cognitive processing time and for the development of new neural pathways. Bashing away at something new without time for processing is both pointless and upsetting.

Completely agree and I have found this to be the case many times

 

[ycbm]

I LOVE this.

Sometimes I think it both. It's all about feeling and being a good horse(wo)man. Some people have it more than others.

This. It's about feeling when you can and can't and should or shouldn't pressure the horse to comply when its instinct is not to. And whether you have the ability to inspire trust from the horse to do what it's told when it doesn't want to.

I was too much "you must" when I was younger, taught by some very old school thinking trainers. I'm much softer these days but I still think it's important that a horse will in general do what you tell it when you tell it to, because you never know when you're going to meet a situation where that will save one or other or both of you from injury.
.

 

[Time for Tea]

This. It's about feeling when you can and can't and should or shouldn't pressure the horse to comply when its instinct is not to. And whether you have the ability to inspire trust from the horse to do what it's told when it doesn't want to.

I was too much "you must" when I was younger, taught by some very old school thinking trainers. I'm much softer these days but I still think it's important that a horse will in general do what you tell it when you tell it to, because you never know when you're going to meet a situation where that will save one or other or both of you from injury.
.

This is very much what I wanted to say and what I think.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I took Louis to the school next door just to do a bit of ground work and lunging and walked round to the stables where my friend is, they have workmen repairing the roofs of stables I saw the guy up there straight away, Louis clocked him after about 5 minutes of us stood there he just suddenly looked up but he didn't seem worried his little mind was ticking away and trying to make sense of the man on the roof.

He soon worked it out and then sighed and looked away wasn't bothered at all by it.