The truth about barefoot

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Are there any horses competing au natural at the top levels? Have you ever seen a horse at Badminton without shoes?
(Genuine question)

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Actually, I would like an answer to this as well. It is not just the competing, I was wondering whether an unshod hoof could withstand the level of training required to get to this level - does anyone know?



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A (now former) eventer called Tom Robinson evented some of his horses whilst they were unshod, to a high level.

Others compete at the lower levels unshod, where the need for studs is less; I don't believe that all unshod horses have the balance to jump big, technical xc tracks with no studs so I wonder if we'll see the careers of such horses coming to a premature end given that they can't be studded.

I'll obviously have various people saying that unshod horses have better balance and grip and hence will be able to cope with such tracks with no studs, but until there are a reasonable number of horses at Int/Adv completing happily and confidently without shoes and studs then I can't see how that can be argued yet.

(And can I please ask not to be given a lecture on the demerits of studding, as I am well aware of them.)
 
I think the level of work thing is probably answeed by barefoot endurance riders, of which I think there are many at all levels, including the top.

That of course excludes the jumping grip argument, which I will stay out of, as I know diddly squat
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I don't actually think there are many (any?) barefoot endurance riders 'at the top' in the UK - they may be doing the distances, but they aren't fast enough to be competitive. It is a different picture in the States, where rides tend to be slower - and of course it is a completely different climate. However, many of the horses compete in hoofboots, so they aren't really 'barefoot' as a boot is just a different sort of shoe (when I wear boots I don't consider myself to be barefoot
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Wow, this thread is actually really really civilised!
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Thanks cptrayes for a well-reasoned and balanced account.

Arabelle: true, hoofboots are a type of shoe, but they do differ from metal shoeing on two important counts: they are flexible/stretchy, and they come off!

Re. studding: some newer kinds of hoofboots allow for the attachment of studs. It'll be interesting to see if they work well/catch on!

Re. qualifications/registering: as I understand it, many barefoot trimmers are very much in favour of the imposition of standards and the establishment of recognised credentials. There also seem to be a fair number of farriers open to learning from the newer insights on natural hoof wear and corresponding trimming.

Someone asked why use a barefoot trimmer rather than a farrier? In my case, it's because of recommendation and seeing the evidence of the trimmer's work. There is one (apprentice) farrier in our area especially who also does a fantastic trim, and I wouldn't hesitate to use her if my regular trimmer was unavailable.
 
I have done both barefott, half shod shod all round and I know which I'd have, if I could. Unshod. But all mine have well-shaped, hard feet and correct action, so don't wear their hooves (or shoes) into irregular shapes. As the OP said, genetics and your environment/situation will be the governors of any outcome of the exercise in trying barefoot and that shoeing is the lesser of two evils if discomfort whilst going barefoot is experienced.

We too came up against peer pressure (or really professional pressure) jumping ours barefoot and shod in front - but the issue was mostly when the going required studs. I would prefer to jump on a surface only and then the argument for shoes would be greatly altered, in our case, towards going unshod.

Not sure how eventers and fittening hours on roads would work, but then the concussion I am totally sure which is experienced by the hoof during roadwork whilst shod has to be considerable.

I'd like there to be a huge leap forward in the develooment of rubber shoes then we at least might be at an acceptable halfway house.

As for the person who went on a dude ranch - well, those horses will probably be direct descendents of the mustangs and QH and have excellent, purpose-built hooves
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I will be taking most of our shoes off again this winter, we have a school at home, the beach nearby and plenty of decent surfaces to work on. We have been in shoes only since August and prior to that, hardly much at all.

Really not ready to buy hoofboots as the trial and error involved, plus the expense of finding they are no use, is too much right now.
 
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The UKNCHP have worked with the farriers and indded UKNHCP courses give points for Continuous Professional Development to Farriers.

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Thank you. So am I right in thinking that what you say there is that UKNHCP courses are available to farriers, who can gain CPD points from them?

Are UKNHCP the main recognised body for barefoot trimmers? Do they have a code of practice and a registered members list (Like the NFC does)?


Is there any move being made to force every barefoot trimmer to be qualified in some way shape or form? Would UKNHCP support this?

Again, not trying to be aggressive in these questions, just things I would like to know, and think others on here would too
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FWIW I am "for" natural horsemanship, and joined here to try to provide some very reasoned posts to the "non-believers" and people who labour under common misaprehensions. Much as I think you are trying to do for barefoot, so I completely see where you are coming from
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Correct about the CPD points.

I don't know what the recognition is of other groups, sorry. Also I'm not a member, so I don't know what their code of practice is but I'm sure they'll tell you if you ask.

They worked very, very closely with Lantra and the Farriers registration council to draw up the new code of practice for barefoot trimmers.
 
I read the whole original post - phew.
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Unfortunately it just confirms my view that the main proponents of 'barefoot' really don't understand how to put forward a rational argument.
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It is not enough, for me, for you to say 'Research shows...'. I am afraid I am the sort of person who will read the research, and therefore I expect such statements to include references, in order that I may follow up the papers referred to.

I also note a number of contradictions in the OP - you seem to confuse 'Genetics' with 'Breed' for example in your discussion. And first you say that some horses do require shod, later you say that all horses can be barefoot - your overall position remains unclear.

I did however, love the part where you claimed that keeping horses unshod required more work - that made me laugh.
Two of my horses are not shod, the third cannot walk without shoes, all three are kept under the same management, incidentally.

I would hope that someone with true expertise in this area would answer ALL the questions, not just those which they deem 'the questions worth answering' (that somehow reminded me of the BNP debate, and instilled little confidence in your knowledge).

I suspect many owners of 'barefoot' horses both during and after 'transitioning' (a great term for 'lame') won't have the expertise/experience to spot bilateral lameness.
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I do hope anyone considering working horses ('barefoot' or shod) consult a qualified farrier (not a self-declared 'trimmer') and a vet, to avoid equine suffering, which I feel strongly about.
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I read the whole original post - phew.
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Unfortunately it just confirms my view that the main proponents of 'barefoot' really don't understand how to put forward a rational argument.
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It is not enough, for me, for you to say 'Research shows...'. I am afraid I am the sort of person who will read the research, and therefore I expect such statements to include references, in order that I may follow up the papers referred to.

I also note a number of contradictions in the OP - you seem to confuse 'Genetics' with 'Breed' for example in your discussion. And first you say that some horses do require shod, later you say that all horses can be barefoot - your overall position remains unclear.

I did however, love the part where you claimed that keeping horses unshod required more work - that made me laugh.
Two of my horses are not shod, the third cannot walk without shoes, all three are kept under the same management, incidentally.

I would hope that someone with true expertise in this area would answer ALL the questions, not just those which they deem 'the questions worth answering' (that somehow reminded me of the BNP debate, and instilled little confidence in your knowledge).

I suspect many owners of 'barefoot' horses both during and after 'transitioning' (a great term for 'lame') won't have the expertise/experience to spot bilateral lameness.
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I do hope anyone considering working horses ('barefoot' or shod) consult a qualified farrier (not a self-declared 'trimmer') and a vet, to avoid equine suffering, which I feel strongly about.
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You didn't read it very well, did you?
 
I just want to say that on certain points the 'barefoot' world seems to be back peddling.
Ive nothing against horses being unshod and hated the insinuations that farriers are all for shoeing. I also hated bieng told that i am no good at my job (and dont know how to trim a horse) and that all my years of training can be undermined by anyone who has purchased a rasp.

I have a client who decided to trim her own horses feet after watching Pete Ramey's DVDs. I had an unbelievable mess on my hands to clean up and luckily i could(perhaps something to do with the training i received).

I would also like to add that i borrowed her DVDs and watched all 11 or so hours of them. I didnt really learn anything that i didnt already know in some shape or form.

I certainly dont need to be told how to trim a horse as the trims i do were no different than his and to be told that all i can do is trim a horse for shoes??????? This is something i find quite untasteful

and the barefoot community wonders why they were met with agro?

I personally (i will not argue for other farriers but most are the same) will do what is best for the horse.

Not every horse can go unshod, i have been farrier on duty at an endurance event where a horse was pulled up lame, one of the other farriers looked at it. when he picked up the foot to clean and look at it, one swipe of his brush had the foot bleeding. The vet gave the owner two choices, pull up or put shoes on.

It seems like there is sometimes a lot of work required to enable a horse to go barefoot, the UK is one of the harder countries to have an unshod horse. My wife is from Africa and none of their horses were shod. They didnt ever ride on roads ((tarmac roads) although the tacks they rode on were very hard and dry as was the weather) the temperature was consistant, the moisture levels were consistant and the horses had huge areas that they roamed in during the day coupled with a different grass quality.
none of her horses EVER had laminitis or thrush.

Some horses can go unshod easier than others and for some people its not worth the extra effort. And some horses need shoes.
 
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You didn't read it very well, did you?

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I expected this response, but it does you no credit.
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You think it did you credit to compare me with the leader of the BNP? The fact that you keep posting with grin emoticons does not take away from the fact that you are simply looking for a fight. You quote your location as Hades, and that seems about spot on to me.

Why don't you just go way and let people who want a reasonable discussion have one in peace?

Thanks to everyone who has come into this discussion in the spirit which was intended, and those who have PM'd me. The thing took me a long time and a lot of thought to write, and your responses have made it worthwhile. History shows that this thread may well now simply degenerate into a bunfight amongst trolls. If so, and you want to contnue in a more adult way, please feel free to PM me and I'll give you my email address.
 
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You didn't read it very well, did you?

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I expected this response, but it does you no credit.
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You think it did you credit to compare me with the leader of the BNP? The fact that you keep posting with grin emoticons does not take away from the fact that you are simply looking for a fight. You quote your location as Hades, and that seems about spot on to me.

Why don't you just go way and let people who want a reasonable discussion have one in peace?

Thanks to everyone who has come into this discussion in the spirit which was intended, and those who have PM'd me. The thing took me a long time and a lot of thought to write, and your responses have made it worthwhile. History shows that this thread may well now simply degenerate into a bunfight amongst trolls. If so, and you want to contnue in a more adult way, please feel free to PM me and I'll give you my email address.

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Firstly, if you decide to open a thread entitled 'the truth about barefoot', which appeared to invite questions/discussion, then surely you would be willing to answer all questions?
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When I've been teaching in the past, I've certainly never told a student that their questions are not 'questions worth answering' as you did above.
Secondly - so - anyone who doesn't agree with you isn't reasonable, or is in fact, a 'troll' looking for a fight?.
I think not.
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I completely agree with you The Farrier. One of the problems is that right now there is no "barefoot world" and until the whole foot trimming thing is brought under licence, there will continue to be factions who upset professionals who are doing a perfectly good job.

Meanwhile, we have unreasonable barefooters slating "all farriers" as being useless when they are not, unreasonable other people slating "all trimmers" as being useless when they are not and it really would be better if we could stop this nonsense and work out what's best for each individual horse/owner combination.

Did I see a pink pig fly across the sky then?
 
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Meanwhile, we have unreasonable barefooters slating "all farriers" as being useless when they are not, unreasonable other people slating "all trimmers" as being useless when they are not and it really would be better if we could stop this nonsense and work out what's best for each individual horse/owner combination.

Did I see a pink pig fly across the sky then?

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No pink pigs here - just sunshine for once.
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I agree entirely - I have nothing against people who don't want/need shoes, but would love things tightened up so there aren't 'cowboy' trimmers allowed.
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Unfortunately it seems to me that the whole barefoot world is slating farriers and so are their clients(trimmer clients).

I personally dont see the need for trimmers if all they are doing is the same job as i am and charging more for the pleasure.

I would be a laughing stock if i charged the same as a trimmer yet i have done more training than most.

Personally i dont get it. But there you go. Trimmers are now here and as long as they are regulated and governed like the rest of us with appropriate training... and they stop with the subterfuge then i have no major quarrels with them
 
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Many horses can go barefoot easily, most without much trouble, and a much smaller number with much more difficulty. Many owners cannot provide what their particular horse needs for barefoot.

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What do horses need to go barefoot. I've seen you comment on a few ocassions that many owners cannot provide what's needed for their horses to go barefoot - but you've never actually said what is needed to be provided??
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There are many farriers who are members of the UKNHCP. I cannot vouch for any other organisation but I'm positive that you will not find the UKNHCP organisation slating any farrier, and if a member farrier did consider their fellow professional's work incompetent, their complaint would be made through the FRC.

Serious question The Farrier - did your training cover feeding, mineral and trace element balances, the amount of movement required to create foot growth, the amount and type of work required to build really hardworking feet, metabolic disorders, blood supply to the feet, dissection of barefoot and shod feet to analyse differences in cartilage thickness and blood supply to cartilage? There's more but I'm not UKNHCP trained myself so I don't know it all.

I'm NOT poking at you, honestly, I'm just trying to point out that UKNHCP trimmers are not trained "just" to trim, but taught to consider that the trim is only 10% of successful, hardworking, performance barefoot. People pay them for the support and knowledge, not just the trim.
 
I know you are addressing the farrier, CPTrayes, but my 'training' covered all of your points above, bar any history of the dissected feet (often past history is not known by the suppliers).
I still don't reckon I could trim feet without laming some poor victim though.
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my major problem with this is the trimmers and this was brought up at a major fariery conference with vets, farriers , trimmers etc, as trimmers are in no way trained in remedial farriery which will arise i shod and unshod horses there advice should be see a farrier/vet so why not cut out the middle man and just always use a farrier?????????
 
Well you haven't learnt how to trim then, have you? Seemples!

Perhaps I should have mentioned that the UKNHCP also teach their trimmers how to trim, but somehow I thought that might be obvious?
 
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Reread the original post Sally, it's all there.

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I have - sorry I can't see a definition of the environment that is required, that I may or may not be able to provide.......
 
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Well you haven't learnt how to trim then, have you? Seemples!

Perhaps I should have mentioned that the UKNHCP also teach their trimmers how to trim, but somehow I thought that might be obvious?

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Ah, glad to hear it!
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But my point is that there are already specialists in all of the aspects you discussed above - vets, nutritionists, dentists, saddlers, etc.
Any farrier/trimmer cannot be expected to provide nutritional advice/metabolic disorder treatment, at an appropriate level.
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There are many farriers who are members of the UKNHCP. I cannot vouch for any other organisation but I'm positive that you will not find the UKNHCP organisation slating any farrier, and if a member farrier did consider their fellow professional's work incompetent, their complaint would be made through the FRC.

Serious question The Farrier - did your training cover feeding, mineral and trace element balances, the amount of movement required to create foot growth, the amount and type of work required to build really hardworking feet, metabolic disorders, blood supply to the feet, dissection of barefoot and shod feet to analyse differences in cartilage thickness and blood supply to cartilage? There's more but I'm not UKNHCP trained myself so I don't know it all.

I'm NOT poking at you, honestly, I'm just trying to point out that UKNHCP trimmers are not trained "just" to trim, but taught to consider that the trim is only 10% of successful, hardworking, performance barefoot. People pay them for the support and knowledge, not just the trim.

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That in itself is fair enough but i would not assume to be rude enough to put nutritionists out of business either.

It is fairly simple to understand that nutrition plays a part in hoof health whether shod or not.

I can advise on suppliaments and what may be appropriate but i would not assume to know all about them.

for example i know as much as i need about sugars in grass in laminitic cases and know the options feetwise, and can advise owners what to do with their laminitic horses yet my major advice (besides being in consultation with the vet where necessary) is for the owner to contact their vet and the laminitic trust who are the most versed on the disease.

I dont claim to know everything but know a bit about most things pertaining to the feet but most of all about the feet themselves and refer the owners to those that know more where necessary

Work types/dissections/hoof anatomy all of course covered in our training. Like i said i wantched Ramey's DVDs and knew most of what he said and then just applied common sense and what i already knew to the rest. I picked up a few pointers as any farrier should from anothers work

I hope that sufficiently answers your questions
 
Quadro the whole "barefoot" as opposed to simply "shoeless" movement arose out of the desperation of owners whose horses had been through remedial shoeing and were still lame and faced with a death sentence. I do not share your faith in remedial farriery.
 
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Reread the original post Sally, it's all there.

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I have - sorry I can't see a definition of the environment that is required, that I may or may not be able to provide.......

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There is a lot to be said for horses being able to be unshod in conditions more similar to that of wid horses.
See my post about mywifes horses for more info.
I hope that helps explain where Cp was gong with their point.

A lot of environmental factors affect the hoof qaulity (andso i assume their bility to go usho and work) such as sugar levels in the grass (which will make an ushod horse footy before a sho one is, and constantly changing moisture(rain) levels.

Horses that live in dry regions 'tend' to have harder fee on the whole that the ones here in the UK.
That i think was the point being made?
 
i have to say a vet has been through a degree and 6 years of trainning and a farrier 4 years at collage, a 4 day trimming course is no subsitute at all for all that wealth of experiance
 
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Well you haven't learnt how to trim then, have you? Seemples!

Perhaps I should have mentioned that the UKNHCP also teach their trimmers how to trim, but somehow I thought that might be obvious?

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Ah, glad to hear it!
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But my point is that there are already specialists in all of the aspects you discussed above - vets, nutritionists, dentists, saddlers, etc.
Any farrier/trimmer cannot be expected to provide nutritional advice/metabolic disorder treatment, at an appropriate level.
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What i was attempting to say.
I have basic knowledge of things that are(and not) foot related since the whole horse ca effect the feet and visa versa but i cannot know it all ad will refer owners on where appropriate.
 
The Farrier what would you advise that I do if my horse was laminitic? (joke question!) My own vet's opinion of the head of the Laminitic Trust was unrepeatable in polite company!

I also don't share your faith in vets. My current vet, in spite of passing three of my barefoot horses for sale with a five star vetting (through gritted teeth) and seeing me hunt several others still doesn't "believe" horses can do hard work without shoes. And because of that he closes his ears to things that the UKNHCP have learned which he was not taught in college. He's far from alone, unfortunately, and will probably still recommend the owner of a horse with navicular to have it shot if bar shoes fail.

He's far from alone.
 
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