the truth about youngsters

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GreenEyedMonster

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From recent experience of having my first youngster I have been lead to believe that all youngsters do the following:

rear - up and over in worst case scenarios
bolt - when tense
bronc - to the point when the rider is deposited but this often only happens at the beginning of ridden sessions

This was my first youngster who despite being very well bred and moving beautifully with a fab jump, has scared the living daylights out of me. Supposedly this is youngsters for you but I can't help thinking that not all youngsters can be like this can they?
I remember from pony club days when kids would ride youngsters and I know of two inexperienced riders who currently own two youngsters and neither suffer these same issues - both have been out competing!

So are these people just lucky or is it only some youngsters who do the above?
The horse is now being sold (she is being schooled away from home by experienced professionals) but I am afraid to get back on a youngster in case it does the same thing - this is very frustrating for me as my 19yo schoolmaster occasionally bucks, rears, squeals and jogs so it isn't like I've never dealt with quirks before, I WAS confident...
 
The truth about youngsters is that they are all different.
Some are a complete doddle and others need an experienced jockey.
The wrong reaction from a rider in the early stages can set a horse back for life.
I'm a reasonably experienced rider, and have ridden plenty of young horses but I won't do the early backing and riding away work myself these days
 
Not all youngsters are like that! It does very much depend on who has started them with regards to their reactions to things. If time has been taken to do the job properly then they can be very polite and rewarding creatures to work with!
 
My grey has a sensible sire and dam, her full siblings also appear to have the same sensible mindset. So as long as I didn't mess up her training, she should have been the same and she was. So I do think that doing your research and finding out about the close relatives' temperaments and trainability is very helpful when choosing a youngster. You still have to train them correctly of course.
 
No, properly started young horses should not do any of those things. However ANY horse (never mind young ones) can do any and all of that and more if disposed to do so, or if not trained or ridden in the right way.
 
The truth about youngsters is they are what we make them and it is imperative that the initial handling and backing is done properly. It is a skilled job. Of course temperament and type does have a big input.

I have two on the go at the moment. Both four years old this summer. The little filly was easy, did her myself with the help of a lightweight rider. It really was a case of here is the tack, here is someone leaning over you and off we went hacking. Couple of circles on lunge as I am not a big fan of lunging babies. Three months on from the backing she is testing a few boundaries. Getting her bridle on is like wrestling a box of frogs, yesterday she decided she would not stand to be mounted and earlier in the week she decided a route she knows well was a route to hell and she found herself being shoved along by a horse behind her. I have no doubt she spends her days plotting the next evasion.

The other horse was a very tricky youngster and he got sent to a specialist breaker. I fully expected him to be returned as a nutjob. He actually got a glowing report and is now streets ahead of the filly.

Very few are born bad, if any, but what we do to them along the path of education certainly can make them bad.
 
As others have said, youngsters who have been started right don't do those things. In particular, having the right foundations before being backed and time being taken to not force it on them but work with them makes all the difference IMO. You can get on a "wild" horse and "ride it through" or you can really spend time getting the horse used to the idea so that once a rider gets on their back, it's only a small step and not a drastic change. Building their confidence from the ground is also really important in my opinion.

I recently backed a horse (he was 5 at the time) who was very easy. I spent a lot of time doing groundwork with him, teaching him to school on and off the lunge and with all his tack on, teaching him voice commands for not just different gaits but different speeds within gaits too. He got used to the bridle by wearing it in his stable. Then my friend did some leaning over him while I held him and eventually he got on while I lunged him (over 2 sessions). He did a tiny bit of bucking the first time he had the saddle on and bucked a couple of times on the lunge with rider but we just kept going and reassured him and it was fine. He was able to walk/trot/canter and halt off seat and voice from the start (though he didn't canter for a little while after being first backed due to mud!) and can be ridden in a halter. We led him out in-hand and with other horses to build his confidence out hacking. Now he can go out alone. He has never, ever reared with someone on him (he rears while playing all the time) and has never bolted. He has spooked at things and napped but not to any extreme and once he is reassured he goes on. He bucks going into canter from time to time but that's normal - a lot of horses need time to get balanced and he has never unseated anyone as that's not why he does it. We started doing some in-hand jumping with him to get him used to that before someone rides him over. And he's done trotting poles without incident... He's even been used to lunge a complete beginner because he's so receptive to voice commands... And all of this was without actually having a school at our disposal at all. I'd add that he has never, ever been whipped, gets a lot of treats as positive reinforcement and is a respectful, friendly horse with no vices - the type that trots over to meet you and follows you like a puppy. He hasn't tried to do any testing of boundaries either. He is still green as not having a school where he is makes things a struggle (over winter you really can't do anything but hack) but clearly not all youngsters are difficult! And honestly, IME, it's just about how they've been started. If it's been done sympathetically and at the pace that suits the horse, it works out best in the long run.
 
GreenEyedMonster said:
From recent experience of having my first youngster I have been lead to believe that all youngsters do the following:

rear - up and over in worst case scenarios
bolt - when tense
bronc - to the point when the rider is deposited but this often only happens at the beginning of ridden sessions

This was my first youngster who despite being very well bred and moving beautifully with a fab jump, has scared the living daylights out of me. Supposedly this is youngsters for you but I can't help thinking that not all youngsters can be like this can they?
I remember from pony club days when kids would ride youngsters and I know of two inexperienced riders who currently own two youngsters and neither suffer these same issues - both have been out competing!

So are these people just lucky or is it only some youngsters who do the above?
The horse is now being sold (she is being schooled away from home by experienced professionals) but I am afraid to get back on a youngster in case it does the same thing - this is very frustrating for me as my 19yo schoolmaster occasionally bucks, rears, squeals and jogs so it isn't like I've never dealt with quirks before, I WAS confident...
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Sounds like your young horse has been badly started.
Shame.
 
No all youngsters are like that - if they have been started sympathetically and thoroughly they can be wonderful! When my mare was 3 I started doing everything with her inhand that I would expect under saddle, including hacking out. When I backed her as a 4 year old she took to ridden work like she had already been doing it and spent the first year solo hacking.

I think too many people just hop on board and because the horse doesn't buck them off, class it as broken. Then when it comes to schooling or hacking the horse doesn't know what is expected of it and gets scared/frustrated and starts showing that it isn't comfortable in the only way it knows how.

It is surprising how many horses are broken and do not even know how to move away from pressure before hand. When the leg is applied they have no idea what it means - for all they know it could be being told off.

I saw a meme the other day that made me think

Teacher 'What day is it?'
Student 'Saturday'
Teacher 'What day is it?'
Student 'The 5th'
Teacher 'What day is it?'
Student ' WTF?'

Same when we are riding - we ask the horse to move on but how many of us kick every few strides with no let up? What purpose does the leg have? The horse initially tries to guess what we want, we don't tell them when they do it right, so they become dead to the leg as their response gains nothing so they just ignore it.

With all the horses I have started I train them to move off the leg, and immediately stop the leg aid, only applying it again if the horse slows, I intend to make and upwards or downwards transition, or move laterally.

One thing to ask yourself (talks in general here) - when you are riding, what happens if you simply take your leg off (with no weight or rein aids applied)? Does your horse slow? If so, you aren't listening to them. The horse shouldn't slow unless asked to and if they do they haven't been taught to move off the leg properly. When they do - they are a joy to ride!
 
Not all youngsters are like this! Dont be put off! My current youngster is a really lovely but very big girl bred to event. During the backing process not so much as a hump, we have a fantastic relationship on the ground which 100% helped and we completed a lot of groundwork before, she is still in the early processes of her ridden career, her worst thing is if she's unsure she will stand stock still and not move until you reassure her. She before March hadn't so much as been tied up. Broke one in last year again very well bred but to showxjump, who took a long time to convince her that not everything meant she was going to kill her, bucks, mini rears but nothing to bad, again a good relationship on the ground was the making of that horse.

The above is definitely not normal at all, have met a lot of youngsters none who have done as you've listed.
 
I think they all react differently. Mine tends to ‘leap’ if startled, but that’s it, once he’s leapt and processed whatever it was he’s OK. I can generally stay with him, particularly if I know it’s coming, and he’s quite vocal so the squeak comes first if he is boiling up to react which means I can nip it in the bud, but I have been caught unawares a couple of times (ninja sheep jumping out of no-where at him......sigh....).

Good starts are important. A very good friend started my boy, and I went with him so she worked with both of us. Everything was very calm and very logical, and we’ve been back a couple of times since for refreshers. I’ve tried to carry on steadily and slowly, so while we might not be as far ahead as others may be in the same situation, we’re learning to trust each other. He is the most trainable horse I've ever worked with - he picks things up very quickly and other than the ninja sheep he just gets on with stuff.

I'd agree with one of the comments above about bloodlines - our youngsters are definitely the product of their parents (and grandparents) in that regard.
 
What an interesting thread. I hope it runs for a while with lots of knowledgeable comments.

This 4 year old was the most nervous, anxiety burdened horse I have ever known. I persevered with the ground handling as a yearling, but he was unhandled as a two/three year old due to personal reasons, and then I started again but never really got far with him and got very near to giving up earlier this year. I could not get a headcollar on him in the stable.

By chance I found a man who specialises in tricky ones and decided to send the horse. In May the horse arrived heavily sedated and travelling on an equine ambulance. On 22nd August I watched the horse win a walk and trot test. It has been a fascinating process to watch, very unorthodox but not all horses follow a set template.

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I know everyone has to start somewhere but there is no substitute for experience for ensuring a horse doesn't learn lifelong bad habits.

I despair slightly at the attitude that learning the breaking process with your young horse is a wonderful rewarding experience and a kind of rite of passage. I know it works well for lots of people, and that lot of experienced people can get it wrong but I see people doing stupid things with young horses all the time.

What experience provides is the ability to spot potential problems & sort them.

I agree it can very much vary from horse to horse, but I think it can be really hard to tell the ones which will be tricky until you start. Experimenting & feeling innately that you know better than tried & tested methods is the way to go apparently - unfortunately.

Best of all is the predictable outcome that it was because the horse was especially tricky or in some way to blame. That's always a good justification for selling it as a Professional's horse and getting another one to ruin.
 
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siennamum said:
I know everyone has to start somewhere but there is no substitute for experience for ensuring a horse doesn't learn lifelong bad habits.

I despair slightly at the attitude that learning the breaking process with your young horse is a wonderful rewarding experience and a kind of rite of passage. I know it works well for lots of people, and that lot of experienced people can get it wrong but I see people doing stupid things with young horses all the time.

What experience provides is the ability to spot potential problems & sort them.

I agree it can very much vary from horse to horse, but I think it can be really hard to tell the ones which will be tricky until you start. Experimenting & feeling innately that you know better than tried & tested methods is the way to go apparently - unfortunately.

Best of all is the predictable outcome that it was because the horse was especially tricky or in some way to blame. That's always a good justification for selling it as a Professional's horse and getting another one to ruin.
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I guess that is aimed at me and I agree with you, however there will always be the odd horse that does not suit the tried and tested route and methods, my carthorse being one of them. An experienced breaker will have to think 'outside the box' in certain situations.
 
AdorableAlice said:
I guess that is aimed at me and I agree with you, however there will always be the odd horse that does not suit the tried and tested route and methods, my carthorse being one of them. An experienced breaker will have to think 'outside the box' in certain situations.
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It's not aimed at you at all.... I agree with testing different methods. I do the same, but always have a clear view about what I;m trying to achieve. Although I think many of the techniques & methods used traditionally are just the same as those employed by Buck Brannigan and his ilk. Just dressed up differently & less trendy.
 
AdorableAlice said:
I guess that is aimed at me and I agree with you, however there will always be the odd horse that does not suit the tried and tested route and methods, my carthorse being one of them. An experienced breaker will have to think 'outside the box' in certain situations.
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I didnt think it was aimed at you AA and you are being a little harsh on yourself. There are certain methods everyone employs to bring on a young horse. The trick is to recognise when you need to think outside normal thinking and get another view or help. You never stop learning with horses and only an individual who is vastly conceited truly believes they have all answers. I have seen a mare started who was a dream to handle on the floor and it was all going BRILLANTLY until she had to be ridden. There were no pain issues but this mare was exceptionally opiniated and additional help was sought. That would look to be related to bloodlines as her breeding is very "hot". I have seen another messed up youngster from gorsebridge (not having a pop, he was an exception not the rule) and he was absolutely terrified. It took the owners a year to get him on track and they ended up ripping up the rule book and treating him like an unhandled feral horse. They bought him as a project from the dealer who was very upfront with them.
 
AdorableAlice said:
The truth about youngsters is they are what we make them and it is imperative that the initial handling and backing is done properly. It is a skilled job. Of course temperament and type does have a big input.

Very few are born bad, if any, but what we do to them along the path of education certainly can make them bad.
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Completely agree and would add that an experienced horseman will squish a bad behaviour before it becomes a bad behaviour where as a horse owner may not notice what's going on until it's become a bad behaviour.

That's the difference between making or breaking (in the wrong way!) any animal. Same with training a dog or anything. Some people have an eye and feel for the slightest nuance, most do not. Most horses are looking for the slightest weakness to exploit it.

I keep going back to my project horse who was a mental head case with an inexperienced owner. I'm no professional rider but I work with animals and have been a professional dog trainer and am always ready / consistent. Those things are why I've succeeded with this mare with very little problem at all, she's barely challenged me, because she knew at the very start of the behaviour, I was in charge, not her, so it didn't escalate. She's turning into a really lovely reliable horse with very little effort from me (the right effort goes a long way!).
 
siennamum said:
It's not aimed at you at all.... I agree with testing different methods. I do the same, but always have a clear view about what I;m trying to achieve. Although I think many of the techniques & methods used traditionally are just the same as those employed by Buck Brannigan and his ilk. Just dressed up differently & less trendy.
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Penny dropped - sorry,

Here is the less trendy training, cart horse fashion. He did many hours of this and now does not question the stand and park yourself instruction. Hope he remembers it for autumn hunting next year.

11084122_10205874737401723_645892066047749814_o_zpsh2rrqqxn.jpg
 
The initial handling is vital. One of mine was ear twitched by the Vet microchipping him as a foal. His breeder was so cross that they never used that vet again. It has left my horse with a deep rooted fear of having his ears grabbed. I have worked calmly and consistently with the horse and he has improved greatly, but it does surface every now and again, especially if he meets someone new.
 
FfionWinnie said:
The wrong handling (that doesn't even mean cruel handling!) is worse than no handling, in the majority of cases.
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Cortez said:
Yes!
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Totally agree. Ask any reputable breaking yard whether they'd rather start an unhandled youngster, or a fussed over and spoilt youngster.

My 4yo homebred mare is currently away being backed. I know that some yards dread taking on a homebred, as they can often be spoilt and brattish. I have handled her firmly but fairly from the off, and was unduly chuffed to be complimented on her excellent ground manners and disposition.

OP, I'm sorry that you have had a bad experience with your young horse. Could his reactions be down partly to pain, whether current or remembered? Have all the usual vet/physio/saddle fit/teeth checks been done?
 
Cortez said:
No, properly started young horses should not do any of those things. However ANY horse (never mind young ones) can do any and all of that and more if disposed to do so, or if not trained or ridden in the right way.
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Totally agree, I've worked for quite a few years as a backing rider (when i was younger and braver!), now I only back my own, and no, youngsters do not do all those things just because they are young.
 
Neither of the 2 3yos that hubby and I have backed have done any of those things.... thankfully....

One was a racing bred TB the other an ID x..

How was yours bred OP?

Its my experience that a lot of WBs are much hotter to work with as youngsters.

But then my just backed 5yo welsh cob was a little devil when I got him (I was a green 16 yo at the time which didn't help), and though he turned into my horse of a lifetime, it took blood, sweat and tears to get there...

Fiona
 
Riders who cannot adapt to the situation in front of them and use initiative should stick to schoolmasters.

A lot of people are so focused on an end point they take shortcuts and forget to INSTALL the basics before moving on.

I've recently started Equitation Science and its a brilliant a lot I had already taught myself but its nice to reinforce it.
 
I've had most of mine from young - several I've bred, and some I've purchased as yearlings or rising two year olds. I think of them as a book that hasn't been written. No one knows how the story starts or what happens, but it's up to you to write it. So no one can tell you how a young horse should act or react, it's up to you to read it.

Experience has taught me (the hard way - as it does), that all horses write their own story, and you start from page one with every one of them.
 
Phew. Although sad to hear of the ops experience, it's been good to read some of these comments. It's still early days with my 5yo in some ways, as I've had him 6 months now, but a few people have remarked on how good he is for his age, and that's he's obv been well started. Not by me, but I'm happy to have bought someone's else's good work. I do keep waiting for him to misbehave though, and not sure if that's a good thing or not!

There does seem to be a Kevin stage at 5/6 which is when they may test the boundaries. Not sure if that's what happened with yours op?
 
they are just different and theres no way round it, no formula to make them the same sadly.

ive backed and help back loads since i was a kid and some of the easiest were frightened feral ponies from the market who settled down and within a week of backing were in the riding school.

did a few jump bred horses who were popping down grids after just a couple of weeks work etc.

re-backed 2 ex racers one was steady as a rock and the other bronced for england.

and the most recent one has gone away to be worked on as despite months of work he is still tricky and i have no desire to be bronced off again. I think once he has had a rider on every day for a couple of weeks he will then be an easy horse, as he tends to hugely over react and then settle quickly and he really does want to do the right thing-its sticking on the huge over reaction thats the issue lol!
 
siennamum said:
It's not aimed at you at all.... I agree with testing different methods. I do the same, but always have a clear view about what I;m trying to achieve. Although I think many of the techniques & methods used traditionally are just the same as those employed by Buck Brannigan and his ilk. Just dressed up differently & less trendy.
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One of mine was sent off to be backed by someone who uses buck brannamans methods.....i can safely say any other young horse i get will be going to the same place. Espically since a friends mare went off to be backed by a eventer and she is a tense, stressy horse to ride, some much so my friend is thinking of sending her to a place like mine was backed at.
 
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