The truth, the whole truth - barefoot footiness

cptrayes said:
i think Boa's go to carthorse size now?? Nope, just checked, nowhere near big enough!
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Thanks for having a look for me, methinks we will just need to soldier on as best we can. :) I try to make sure he is worked on a variety of surfaces so will up the roadwork, schooling and looning around the fields, giving the tracks a miss for the moment and see if that helps.
 
my 3 are barefoot, only the mare has footiness issues but this week she has turned a corner and no longer footy! They have eaten off all the grass in their paddock though so I am putting the improvement down to this. She also had white line disease before. I put her boots back on to work her while footy (fronts only).

Hope you find whats causing the probs soon :D
 
Oberon said:
Is there any scientific research that proves a link between poor horn growth and genetics?
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There have been studies about horn quality and genetics in sheep and cattle, not sure about horses.

However you only have to look at different breeds to see a link between genetics and hoof quality/growth. i.e. compare dartmoor ponies to TBs to cobs- all different.

Any trait is a product of genetics and environment. For example, you could have a horse with genetically fantastic feet but if its management is wrong then you won't see it. You could also have a horse with genetically poor feet that with good management the quality/function can be maximised within the limits set by genetics. But poor genetics and poor (or incorrect) management obviously is the worse scenario.

Its all dynamic of course, because although the genetic predisposition for hoof quality wont change, it is very hard to have static management due to fluctuations in weather, feed, grass, etc, which all have an effect on the feet. As evidenced by the OP! :)
 
teddyt said:
There have been studies about horn quality and genetics in sheep and cattle, not sure about horses.

However you only have to look at different breeds to see a link between genetics and hoof quality/growth. i.e. compare dartmoor ponies to TBs to cobs- all different.
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There is obviously no doubt that different breeds have different hooves (and shapes) but that doesn't mean that within each breed or mixture of breeds genetically poor hooves are produced. Thin hoof walls, poor horn growth, thin soles and flat feet are all not necessarily permanent issues for horses if diet and environment / management are good. It would be interesting to see if there were actually genetically poor hooves that couldn't be improved in an environment like Rockley Farm. Genetics do obviously affect how a horse will deal with and process a diet which affects how well the hooves cope, but I'm not sure that's what most people think of when they say "it's genetics" as I imagine they might think of poor TB hooves (which might have been permanently damaged from being shod at 2yrs), but that could be me just making assumptions.
 
This is what confuses me. Some people will say "it's genetics" with absolute certainty as to why a horse needs shoes.

Yet there is no scientific research to back it up?
 
Oberon said:
This is what confuses me. Some people will say "it's genetics" with absolute certainty as to why a horse needs shoes.

Yet there is no scientific research to back it up?
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Perhaps that comes from the belief that things like flat soles or thin walls, or footines are not changeable and therefore must be genetic. I think these things are changeable in most / many horses so to me it can't be genetics, but is a product of environment.
 
Clava said:
Perhaps that comes from the belief that things like flat soles or thin walls, or footines are not changeable and therefore must be genetic. I think these things are changeable in most / many horses so to me it can't be genetics, but is a product of environment.
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Have to say, after pulling my horses backs (and these were terribly flat) and seeing them now 9 weeks later looking concave, healthy and textbook like, I am inclined to agree. I thought my horse was genetically predisposed to flat feet, being a TB, and now I have discovered that is not the case....
 
Oberon said:
This is what confuses me. Some people will say "it's genetics" with absolute certainty as to why a horse needs shoes.

Yet there is no scientific research to back it up?
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Some horses have thin manes, some have thick manes. Thats genetics. But the mane can still be affected by management. Theres a saying 'you cant make a silk purse out of a sows ear' or something like that! Clava is right, many things are a product of the environment but there is only so much this can do if the genetic 'fingerprint' is set for a horse to have a certain characteristic.

And in some cases, genetics mean a horse is predisposed to a certain foot shape or hoof quality, which in certain environments is triggered. Improved management may optimise function and quality but it is not going to be able to completely change a foot if the genetics aren't there to allow it.

Environment is very, very important but it can't change the genetic make up of a horse. But until you have been through the environment/management with a fine tooth comb then you cant say its genetics with 100% certainty, but if everything else is optimised what else is there to affect the feet?

Not sure if thats made what i am trying to say any clearer?
 
Genetics definitely affect how easily horses find it to go barefoot. Some never notice the shoes come off and are out 24/7 all spring summer. Some don't notice the shoes come off and are fine in winter and footie in spring. If both horses are on the same diet, exercise and management regime, then that's probably genetics.

Having said that, I have yet to find a horse that I could not get happily barefoot, though one required total exclusion from grass.

So while I do believe genetics plays a part in hoof quality, I don't believe that there are many horses which could not go barefoot if the owner was able to fine tune the diet, exercise and management. Many owners are not in a position to do that, and some don't want to, and for those, shoes or boots are a necessity.
 
PROGRESS :)

The horse I was concerned about was happy to do my stony path again today. He wasn't quite rock-crunching but he was not pulling his feet sharply off any of the stones and I'd be happy to ride him on it again even if he stays where he is now.

So what changed?

I muzzled him overnight a week ago.
I put him on activated charcoal and Naf Haylage Balancer with live yeast in five days ago.

I don't know which of the three it is, but in another couple of days I will leave the muzzle off and see what happens. One things for sure and that's that it isn't having had less food, because he's been eating over ten kilos of haylage during the day when he's in! It is definitely the grass that's the issue.

I'm very relieved that he is almost back to normal, I really don't want to go back to a variable/untrustworthy supply of brewers yeast even if it is dead cheap (10p a day) in 25kg sacks.
 
My horses live out on this-
May11.jpg


Are barefoot, 100% perfectly sound on ALL terrain, never footy, have fabulous feet, are trimmed when they need it by a farrier and are both competing (1 events/ BSJAs to 1.15, the other is an ex-racehorse just pootling at RC)
They dont receive any faddy balancers, supplements, feeds. No hoof boots, no nothing.

Hmmmmmm so how does that work?!
 
TheMule said:
My horses live out on this-
May11.jpg


Are barefoot, 100% perfectly sound on ALL terrain, never footy, have fabulous feet, are trimmed when they need it by a farrier and are both competing (1 events/ BSJAs to 1.15, the other is an ex-racehorse just pootling at RC)
They dont receive any faddy balancers, supplements, feeds. No hoof boots, no nothing.

Hmmmmmm so how does that work?!
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how DOES that work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????????????????

You must have plastic grass...
 
TheMule said:
My horses live out on this-
May11.jpg


Are barefoot, 100% perfectly sound on ALL terrain, never footy, have fabulous feet, are trimmed when they need it by a farrier and are both competing (1 events/ BSJAs to 1.15, the other is an ex-racehorse just pootling at RC)
They dont receive any faddy balancers, supplements, feeds. No hoof boots, no nothing.

Hmmmmmm so how does that work?!
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I've had several the same. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Lots of horses find it very easy, and therefore the owners find it very easy. I have a Shetland who doesn't get lami no matter how fat he gets, others have Shetlands who are crippled on a slice of unsoaked hay a day.

You don't have one that is sensitive to grass? Thank your lucky stars, some other people else wish theirs were as easy as yours. You have a very easy timekeeping barefoot horses.

Are you suggesting that you think all horses can do what yours do, or just showing people that it isn't always as tricky as the horse I started this thread about (which is true in MANY ways of this particularly odd horse!) If the first, can you give us advice about the, to my guess, 1 in 3 horses are more sensitive to grass intake than your two are?
 
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maggiesmum said:
I'm always amazed that this isn't common knowledge, and I'm not criticising anyone - until I became a fully paid up member of the barefoot brigade I didn't know it either!!

How can Laminitis be so common yet so many people don't realise that its a gut problem and that sore feet are a symptom? Why are vets not explaining this to people? Why is it not part of the laminitis article in every magazine every spring? Someone mentioned that they'd asked their farrier and he'd never heard of it, why not?

It frustrates me so much that owners are struggling to manage horses without the proper information about exactly how the problem occurs, knowledge is power and all that!!

Just to re-iterate, i'm not criticising anyone who didn't / doesn't know this, there is no such thing as a bad student only a bad teacher!!
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people need to take responsibility. we can't know everything about everything but we should know something about common ailments in the horse ie colic, lammi, toxic plants which means picking a damn book up once in a while. owning a horse is hard work and it's a huge responsibility looking after such a specialised animal, the information is out there but won't fall in your lap, own it!

I had a 'horsewoman' tell me there was no poisonous plants on the estate where I keep my horses. well, there arent in the paddocks but I was standing next to a yew tree, the manege is lined with privet, there are oak trees in one paddock and there are rhododendrons elsewhere. she honestly didnt know-how can you not know this frankly, basic stuff?!
 
horsemadmum1 said:
Just thought I'd mention that a farrier is within his rights to refuse to shoe a difficult/dangerous horse. It's the owners job to present the horse as suitable for shoeing. Why should the farrier get his head kicked in? Its like going to the hairdressers and moving about while the scissors are being used, getting up and wandering off, or maybe kicking the hairdresser. What kind of haircut would you end up with then? If the hairdresser was willing to carry on that is.
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I agree with this, however, "problem" horses out there still need to be shod/trimmed so Cassiethecob is well within her rights to ask for advice on the matter.
My mare is sedated for her trims now because she's had a very bad experience with a farrier in the past and will now kick and bite like a beast from hell as soon as she lays eyes on the overalls. My horse wasn't born "difficult", she was made so by mistreatment. Thankfully I have now found a fantastic farrier who doesn't mind trimming her while she's under sedation (even though sometimes she is known to fight sedation - this is a nightmare as you can imagine!)

I am one of the barefoot brigade too. My mare could once walk across all terrains - but the insane amount of stones and gravel on our yard combined with overly lush grazing is causing her a bit of difficulty with her front hooves chipping :mad:
 
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