The Unspeakable?

[Fiagai]

A very good post. I have also witnessed a lot of the things you mention.
However, a lot of hunting people clearly don't see or care how much they can annoy and disrupt other people.

I would respectfully disagree. To a point all the listed things do happen on occasion - despite the best efforts of people who hunt to maintain to maintain good relations with those that do not. It is also important to remember many who hunt are also locals and like all equestrians have the same use of the roads and public access that others do. Tolerance is a two way street.

What I really really hate in this case is that those against hunting are not happy enough to state that they hate / dislike all types of hunting whether trail or otherwise - but insist on throwing everything including the proverbial kitchen sink at those that hunt and then some - so it becomes that all hunt activities become stretched into a popularised imagining of rampaging red faced alcohol swilling fence trampling loud mouthed rude toffs who ride their horses to death.

Like all such generalisation - it does no one anyone any favours - whether that is those who dislike hunting or those that love it.

 

[ycbm]

I would respectfully disagree. To a point all the listed things do happen on occasion - despite the best efforts of people who hunt to maintain to maintain good relations with those that do not. It is also important to remember many who hunt are also locals and like all equestrians have the same use of the roads and public access that others do. Tolerance is a two way street.

What I really really hate in this case is that those against hunting are not happy enough to state that they hate / dislike all types of hunting whether trail or otherwise - but insist on throwing everything including the proverbial kitchen sink at those that hunt and then some - so it becomes that all hunt activities become stretched into a popularised imagining of rampaging red faced alcohol swilling fence trampling loud mouthed rude toffs who ride their horses to death.

Like all such generalisation - it does no one anyone any favours - whether that is those who dislike hunting or those that love it.

I am very much in favour of drag hunting. I'm afraid your response to my post simply confirms the point that I was trying to make. Even as someone who loves it I can see the picture it gives to people who don't do it. If hunting is to survive, it needs to develop the same self awareness.

It is not sufficient to respond to people who are held up on an A road for ten or fifteen minutes 'we have a legal right to be here, you should tolerate us' while a mass of riders make no attempt whatsoever to allow traffic to pass, or hunts station people in the road to physically stop traffic while fifty riders drift across the road in dribs and drabs.

I made it clear that my list of points was not about every hunt every week, but those things (barring hopefully cubbing) happen too often for the non hunting public to ignore. If hunting wants to stop being hated, it needs to stop doing hateful things.

 

[Sandstone1]

The truth? Most of the justifications to promote the continuance of hunting and by those who ride to hounds, or course for that matter, was complete and utter tosh offered as a way of placating those who were simply unable to accept that for many it was an inbuilt and important part of their lives. It all boils down, eventually, to having a management system in place which allows the focus of our interest to prosper and survive whilst we effectively pick blackberries in the autumn. The management which was in place was such that our vulpine population prospered and were healthy …….. now on the other hand, every other 'sniper' in the County is armed with a C/F rifle, vixens with cubs to feed are bing killed, foxes are being maimed through complete incompetence and inexperience and by and large, our vulpine population receives NOTHING by way of support. The hand of everyone is now turned against the fox whilst previously, foxes were given sanctuary in established hunting country …. but no longer.

I have a flight pond where I feed wild ducks, I enjoy watching from a distance as they come in to feed in the evenings and as the sky darkens I try to identify the different species. Perhaps 3 or 4 times a year I may invite a chum and we shoot a few brace, and then leave before the end of the flight to let the stragglers come in. I don't feed the pond just to shoot ducks because it would be cheaper and vastly so, to go to the game dealer and buy my wild duck that someone else has shot and are presented on polystyrene trays. The time involved and the cost of the barley FAR outweighs the return in duck fashion, unless of course the value in what I do is that I manage and feed our local duck population, as others do and so ensure that they're fed through the winter and so that I can seek out their secret sites where they nest and then from a distance watch in the spring as they hatch and move their little squadrons to safety.

I really don't expect you to understand or in any way accept that the wildlife which surrounds me and which in my own small way I manage and influence, hopefully for the better, matters to me, a great deal.

Alec.

I understand what you are saying to a point. You enjoy feeding and watching the ducks. You shoot a few which can be justified as you presumably eat them.
What about the hare though?
Excuse my ignorance but by the time your dogs have finished with them I'm guessing they are not suitable for eating?
So that leaves the pure enjoyment of watching your dogs work?

 

[Alec Swan]

……..

What bothered me was the geeky feeling that you hadn't explained correctly what you were doing and were misleading yourself and the forum slightly. …….. .

I've been called many things, on here and elsewhere previously, and now I can add Geek to the list, thanks for that! Of course I care passionately about the rural aspect of the world which we live in and I have views which are, or would be, open to change were I ever presented with any cogent argument which would convince me that the system by which our countryside has evolved and over centuries, was wrong.

Just out of interest, a question for you and perhaps anyone else if they care to answer; 'What do you feel has been the greatest influence over our rural life — ever'? For the better or worse, makes no difference.

Alec.

 

[GirlFriday]

'What do you feel has been the greatest influence over our rural life — ever'?

There are those who would argue mechanisation (both in terms of rural careers and also transport) but I suspect 'wheat' is the answer.

(I was calling me a geek for liking correctness)

ETA: as far as I'm aware fox hunting (pre and post ban) is immaterial in terms of fox death - roads account for the majority and are pretty indiscriminate...

 

[Alec Swan]

……..
What about the hare though?
Excuse my ignorance but by the time your dogs have finished with them I'm guessing they are not suitable for eating?
So that leaves the pure enjoyment of watching your dogs work?

When a Coursing dog, in my case a Lurcher(s) has taken a hold and crushed the ribs and so the lungs, death is but a few seconds away. Only ill-disciplined dogs or those which lack experience would break up a hare and damage it, occasionally saplings do, but mostly they grow out of it and learn that there's no point in waisting energy when there's further sport to be had. Mostly, sporting dogs and hounds learn how to be economical and pace themselves. As I'm ageing so the number of hares caught is dwindling, but those which succumb are certainly eaten.

Those who are involved in Coursing will tell you that there are few pleasures known to man like watching your own dog when it's tucked in behind a hare and when it sees those 3 or 4 strides and as with patience it waits until it can make contact. Perhaps owning a racehorse and watching it win is a similar sensation, but being a pauper, I wouldn't know!

Alec.

 

[Sandstone1]

When a Coursing dog, in my case a Lurcher(s) has taken a hold and crushed the ribs and so the lungs, death is but a few seconds away. Only ill-disciplined dogs or those which lack experience would break up a hare and damage it, occasionally saplings do, but mostly they grow out of it and learn that there's no point in waisting energy when there's further sport to be had. Mostly, sporting dogs and hounds learn how to be economical and pace themselves. As I'm ageing so the number of hares caught is dwindling, but those which succumb are certainly eaten.

Those who are involved in Coursing will tell you that there are few pleasures known to man like watching your own dog when it's tucked in behind a hare and when it sees those 3 or 4 strides and as with patience it waits until it can make contact. Perhaps owning a racehorse and watching it win is a similar sensation, but being a pauper, I wouldn't know!

Alec.

So basically it's for sport.

 

[ycbm]

'What do you feel has been the greatest influence over our rural life — ever'?

Cheap oil. As we are going to find out when it runs out.

 

[Alec Swan]

There are those who would argue mechanisation (both in terms of rural careers and also transport) but I suspect 'wheat' is the answer.

(I was calling me a geek for liking correctness)

ETA: as far as I'm aware fox hunting (pre and post ban) is immaterial in terms of fox death - roads account for the majority and are pretty indiscriminate...

Excepting that I don't quite get 'Wheat', unless you mean the advance in agriculture, but otherwise I agree with you. The pressures upon our rural world, summed up in the one word 'Advancement', are colossal. Rural life still hasn't come to terms with the 'engine' and I doubt that it ever really will.

I apologies, I misunderstood your remark — even though you may have been unintentionally correct!

It really is a curious thing, I'm sure that you'll agree and that it's an anomaly; pre-ban Hunting really didn't directly, through the numbers killed by Hounds, have much influence upon our vulpine population — now we have the hand of just about everyone it seems, turned against our foxes, cubs are being killed at the drop of a hat, litters of cubs are dying of starvation because one or both parents are being shot under lamps, the road casualties (around here, anyway) are at an all time high— and yet, we have more foxes nationally, the disease level is on the increase, though only a personal belief but I feel that foxes are now generally smaller, and do we wonder why?

I've a plan, and I'm sure that you'll see the sense of it D) — Let's abolish this ridiculous and unworkable Law, Let's return to the days of Hunting as it was, Let's establish the sanctuaried influence which Hunting provided, just as an experiment and then let's see if our fox population returns to the previous numbers and health status which it once had. No? I thought not!

Alec.

 

[Alec Swan]

So basically it's for sport.

Got it in one except that we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that with a love of Sport comes a sense of responsibility.

Alec.

 

[cobgoblin]

Just out of interest, a question for you and perhaps anyone else if they care to answer; 'What do you feel has been the greatest influence over our rural life — ever'? For the better or worse, makes no difference.

Alec.

Townies!

 

[ycbm]

Got it in one except that we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that with a love of Sport comes a sense of responsibility.

Alec.

Where is your sense of responsibility in using your dog to kill a wild member of an endangered species, Alec? I genuinely do not understand how you can say that?


I also don't understand why you think fox need sanctuary when they are, as far as I can tell, flourishing as a breed.

 

[GirlFriday]

Excepting that I don't quite get 'Wheat'

Globally it makes a huge difference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Borlaug for example

 

[Alec Swan]

Townies!

Well, yes, that's one way of putting it — the urban influence which screams at us just that and about just how much they really do care, and that some half-wit academic from a Uni of which no-one's ever heard, or some well intentioned clown who was in a pop band and who seem to be the chosen voice to listen to, rather than those who attempt to explain that in reality, life aint quite like that …….. it goes on and on.

I suppose that well intentioned ignorance [sic] and mechanisation are equally at fault.

Alec.

As an edit, it's only a shame that those who would wish for their own and often unrealistic ideas to be heard, don't listen to those who live the life daily and that the two sides don't join forces and work together to affect change, rather than the existing platform where one lectures the other and tells them that even though that's how their life has been lived, for centuries, all this time, they've been wrong.

 

[Fiagai]

I am very much in favour of drag hunting. I'm afraid your response to my post simply confirms the point that I was trying to make . Even as someone who loves it I can see the picture it gives to people who don't do it. If hunting is to survive, it needs to develop the same self awareness.

How so? Do explain. On point dislike trail hunting or whatever stance you chose to take but attempting throw in all the kitchen furniture as part of your argument renders it less than convincing.

It is not sufficient to respond to people who are held up on an A road for ten or fifteen minutes 'we have a legal right to be here, you should tolerate us' while a mass of riders make no attempt whatsoever to allow traffic to pass, or hunts station people in the road to physically stop traffic while fifty riders drift across the road in dribs and drabs.

Absolute biblox. Nowhere did I infer any of the above. Again your argument involves some serious misrepresentation and gross generalisations of what was detailed

As I said tolerance is a two way street. Country fairs, golf tournament, even bike races all involve crowdes of people using shared resources. Yes this may cause conflict - often unintentional - however taking overt offence and screaming will help no one.

I made it clear that my list of points was not about every hunt every week, but those things (barring hopefully cubbing) happen too often for the non hunting public to ignore. If hunting wants to stop being hated, it needs to stop doing hateful things.

Do you know what? - you claim to have once hunted. It is said that there is none so unforgiven as those with reformed beliefs.

Time and time again it would appear we have posters who turn up to barage, question and discedit those who hunt.

I do not know of another single forum on H&H that are targeted by some to defend their equestrian activities again again and again. I frequently take long sabbaticals from the Hunting forum for exactly that reason. I would like that the Hunting forum be what it should be - a place for those with shared interests.

As in this instance - I have noted sone posters posting the exact same questions and generalised (and frankly rubbish imo) statements when a little bit of research would show that these questions have been answered here previously (I will hold up Alex as a shining light in this regard) - often politely and with significant detail. And yet we are here again.

If you are not an equestrian - may I politely suggest you take up an interesting hobby to occupy your time ...

 

[GirlFriday]

rather than the existing platform where one lectures the other and tells them that even though that's how their life has been lived, for centuries, all this time, they've been wrong.

At the risk of 'lecturing' - there isn't a great deal of evidence that fox hunting, in it's pre-ban form, had existed for many centuries at all really. Less than a handlful. Which in the the history of agriculture is pretty small.

 

[Alec Swan]

At the risk of 'lecturing' - there isn't a great deal of evidence that fox hunting, in it's pre-ban form, had existed for many centuries at all really. Less than a handlful. Which in the the history of agriculture is pretty small.

I wasn't linking Agriculture to Hunting, except that the former influences the latter, mostly and that the latter should be (and in the main is) grateful for the freedom which is offered.

Accepting your wrongly assumed five centuries when man has ridden to hounds, how long do you feel that it would take for tradition and so, a rural management system, however unplanned, it evolved, to become established?

Alec.

 

[cobgoblin]

At the risk of 'lecturing' - there isn't a great deal of evidence that fox hunting, in it's pre-ban form, had existed for many centuries at all really. Less than a handlful. Which in the the history of agriculture is pretty small.

The first recorded evidence of fox hunting for pest control was in 1534. Prior to that it was probably just called 'hunting' and lumped in with deer and boar etc.
Not really surprising that there is little recorded evidence before that as most people couldn't read or write, but wherever there was livestock I would imagine there would have been farmers trying to eliminate predators.

 

[Alec Swan]

……..

If you are not an equestrian - may I politely suggest you take up an interesting hobby to occupy your time ...

That, I feel compelled to advise you, is ice sooo thin!!

Alec.

 

[cobgoblin]

Popcorn anyone?

 

[ycbm]

Popcorn anyone?

Only if it's Butterkist

 

[Clodagh]

I got a bit bored here, but generally the brown hare is doing very well, thank you, and we now ought to cull them to keep numbers down. When I had a lurcher we had none at all, which was not good either. All things need a balance. We are so overstocked with hares now that they are dying of a viral disease, stocks of most wild animals are self limiting. We pick up dead hares quite often. Even with buzzards taking many leverets we are still over run.
Coursing is the most fabulous sport, when done properly, and the best thing in the world is watching a long dog course a hare. Only really equalled by a good days ratting, but thankfully as no one likes rats that is still legal.
I no longer fox hunt, or course actually, as a labrador would not be very good at it.

 

[Fiagai]

Alas Alec- I lack your absolute patience but yes I do prefer to call a spade a spade. At times I resort to the hunting forum for a little r&r only to find the same old. I promise to put it behind me - I'm hunting tomorrow : )

 

[Theocat]

I don't think it is possible that anyone can extrapolate from a small number of posts that an entire community is or is not "open-minded, tolerant or intelligent"

The point (although I did not make it well) is that both sides of this debate extrapolate from a small number of incidents / facts / examples, and that sort of judgement is exactly the conclusion that antis will draw from such a small-minded comment.

I find the argument regarding hunting and socio-economic status truly bizarre. You said -
"Hunting far beyond the financial reach of nearly everyone... People who hunt are, generally, richer than that average. It isn't really a class issue - but if you are surviving on minimum wage, the difference between upper-class, and enough money to ride enough to go hunting, is, frankly, academic"

That argument could be thrown at anyone who rides, keeps or competes horses. If you have a horse or horses any additional activity whether it is eventing, endurance or showing will no doubt involve the spending of considerable amounts of money. To pay for these activities may involve working
or earning additional money to help pay for expenses. That is what the majority of people do who are involved in equestrian activities in my experience. Does that make equestrians somehow elitists as you suggest? I don't believe it does to be honest.

Am I wrong in presuming you have a horse or horses? Would you qualify as a target for those who consider you to be elitist as an equestrian? Does that make you a possible target for abuse by others?

Yes, I have horses. I am middle class, and I earn a reasonable but not enormous salary. Any of those things, even in isolation, is enough to make someone a possible target for accusations of elitism or even - in some places - abuse.

Families surviving on minimum wage, or relying on food banks, cannot imagine having the sort of spare cash that's necessary to keep horses even on an absolute shoestring. To many people, having horses equals elite. We may not feel that we are, but we aren't going to persuade anyone of that just by denying it!

 

[Alec Swan]

Only if it's Butterkist

ycbm, if your intent is to irritate, at least from here, you've missed the mark. I am genuinely very fond of you which I hope that you accept, I read so many of your posts and raise a salute and on just about every subject under the sun with which you choose to join …….. but, when it comes to any form of fieldsports, you seem to step completely out of character, you offer nothing of value beyond hearsay and nonsense, your level of bias wanders in to the ridiculous, and I'm left wondering how, or more to the point 'why', you offer irrelevance and simple nonsense as fact. I could expect it of many perhaps, but not you.

This isn't an attack upon you, but simply a statement of bewilderment that you can promote such nonsense to support your arguments when under another umbrella, you'd have me holding that umbrella and offering unwavering support. It isn't even because we don't agree, but more that your arguments have no value, what so ever.

Alec.

 

[Fiagai]

The point (although I did not make it well) is that both sides of this debate extrapolate from a small number of incidents / facts / examples, and that sort of judgement is exactly the conclusion that antis will draw from such a small-minded comment.

Ok I can accept that rationale. However if it works both ways for both antis and hunters -then Antis must also accept that their propaganda is also just that.

Yes, I have horses. I am middle class, and I earn a reasonable but not enormous salary. Any of those things, even in isolation, is enough to make someone a possible target for accusations of elitism or even - in some places - abuse.

Families surviving on minimum wage, or relying on food banks, cannot imagine having the sort of spare cash that's necessary to keep horses even on an absolute shoestring. To many people, having horses equals elite. We may not feel that we are, but we aren't going to persuade anyone of that just by denying it!

Travellers / Gypseys have horses but I doubt if they are considered elite. I know small farmers with a couple of horses ditto. I know of those who choose to hire to hunt occasionally as they are not in a position to own a horse. I know of a widow who has a veteran horse who manages to hunt on her pension. But yes young families may have different priorities and as such are correct to do so. However I really dislike current thinking that anyone with an interest in a horse - hunting or otherwise is somehow elite. In my mind - It's a bit close to the cultural revolution when those who were educated were considered suspect and abused by those that weren't...

 

[ycbm]

To many people, having horses equals elite. We may not feel that we are, but we aren't going to persuade anyone of that just by denying it!

I agree Theocat. As an example, I swapped my aluminium 7.5 ton box, pretty indistinguishable from a cattle wagon, for a new build 3.5 t. Driving it home from the builder still smelling of paint, on a heavily congested urban motorway and in a queue to exit a shopping centre, we got abuse from a number of other motorists which we have never experienced before. It took me a while to realise that the upturned middle fingers and waving 'O' fists were because of a pretty horse van that cost the same as a family SUV.

Hunters experience this more because they gather in large numbers in the same place.

 

[GirlFriday]

the best thing in the world is watching a long dog course a hare. Only really equalled by a good days ratting

C - I've no idea of your relationship or parental status but do hope that this does not reflect a sad demise in other, even longer established, means of both urban and rural human recreation...

ETA: ;-) just to ensure we're still all being good natured (with, in this case, organic home popped corn to hand...)

 

[Clodagh]

C - I've no idea of your relationship or parental status but do hope that this does not reflect a sad demise in other, even longer established, means of both urban and rural human recreation...

ETA: ;-) just to ensure we're still all being good natured (with, in this case, organic home popped corn to hand...)

LOL! Made me laugh. I could not possibly comment. Snort!!

 

[Orangehorse]

When a Coursing dog, in my case a Lurcher(s) has taken a hold and crushed the ribs and so the lungs, death is but a few seconds away. Only ill-disciplined dogs or those which lack experience would break up a hare and damage it, occasionally saplings do, but mostly they grow out of it and learn that there's no point in waisting energy when there's further sport to be had. Mostly, sporting dogs and hounds learn how to be economical and pace themselves. As I'm ageing so the number of hares caught is dwindling, but those which succumb are certainly eaten.

Those who are involved in Coursing will tell you that there are few pleasures known to man like watching your own dog when it's tucked in behind a hare and when it sees those 3 or 4 strides and as with patience it waits until it can make contact. Perhaps owning a racehorse and watching it win is a similar sensation, but being a pauper, I wouldn't know!

Alec.

I thought the gypsies used their lurchers to hunt hares for the pot.