The videos

Ok, i'm going to go totally against the grain here...
But i think it was all going wrong when you had him rounded.. when i'm SJing i'm thinking more about the contact i have on the horses mouth than where his head is, if he wants to canter with his head up in an almost hollow outline then so be it, who am i to tell him what shape he should jump out of...
Forget dressage/flatwork, and get a feeling of getting all the power coming from behind UP into a light contact, like you're sitting on a coiled spring.. but don't worry about how round he is in his head/neck...

ETS, i only read the first page of replies, and i only watched the last vid...
 
I'm afraid that I agree with icestationzebra. It is so difficult to jump a horse like this that has a very large and unbalanced canter.
Its all going wrong because the canter is not established enough, the turns are unbalanced,the shoulders fall out every time,he cannot maintain a rhyhtym and when you ask him to go forwards he wibble wobbles,and chucks his head around instead of going forwards in a balanced fashion, hence he is arriving at the fences at an uncomfortable pace and thus making a bad shape. He cannot possibly make a good shape over the fence when he is completly on his forehand.
Every time he does a trot to canter transition he looses his balance and chucks his head up, and falls into canter, so firstly I would work on establishing really really slow and balanced canter transitions.Once the transitions are 200% consistent would make sure that he goes forwards 4 strides, comes back 4 strides, again and again on a circle, then practise turns, circles in the other direction constantly going backwards and forwards so that he learns how to hold a rhythym.
Once the canter is properly established I would do canter poles and small jumps on a circle with bounce strides between each pole/jump to give him confidence and to teach him to establish a rhyhtym and to use his hocks over fences.

Once all that is sorted you guys have seriously got it made and he will be jumping courses perfectly!You're both really talented, he just needs more work on the flat that is all.
 
Ok, having actually read some of the replies now, it seems i've posted pretty much what kerilli has said... which i agree with... less of the 'outline' and 'roundness' let him have his head where ever he wants,
 
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, i'm going to go totally against the grain here...
But i think it was all going wrong when you had him rounded.. when i'm SJing i'm thinking more about the contact i have on the horses mouth than where his head is, if he wants to canter with his head up in an almost hollow outline then so be it, who am i to tell him what shape he should jump out of...
Forget dressage/flatwork, and get a feeling of getting all the power coming from behind UP into a light contact, like you're sitting on a coiled spring.. but don't worry about how round he is in his head/neck...

ETS, i only read the first page of replies, and i only watched the last vid...

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree that jumping them in an outline is not helpfull, DEFINATELY yes the head has to be 'uphill' because the moment the horse is round they tend to overbend and the hocks go out the back door. But I dont agree about not concentrating on flatwork , the horse has to learn how to establish a good canter rhyhtym, to turn,circle, and bend in a balanced way, go forwards, go backwards, EXACTLY when you ask him to, this doesnt mean that the horse has to be in a 'dressage' outline at all, just an uphill outline, is what I call making their canters a 'handy canter' because you can ask them to do whatever you want, when you want within the canter, no arguments, no questions asked.
 
MissDeMeena and i are totally on the same page here re: outline.
just an idea, madhector, have you tried him in a hackamore? just something completely different that he hopefully won't fight? that was my thinking behind the myler combo too, fwiw.
 
Thankyou everyone for all your helpful replys, really fantastic advice as usual

I am beginning to think I am the problem here, not the horse. He is too good for me and we are getting no where. I am so determined to get things sorted that maybe I have been missing this.
 
Ouija Board, i totally agree, he needs flatwork, but not in an outline, for jumping. yes, he needs to be more responsive and malleable, but also much more forward-thinking and clever about where his body and feet are, and how long his stride is.
loose jumping might also be very helpful, literally let him sort it out for himself. i'm not a big fan of it, but it could be the making of a horse like him, who is very clever and busy arguing with the rider, just another idea to bat around!
 
Have to say I totally agree with Kerilli and MDM, I have always been told to "leave the head alone" and not to keep asking for an outline, my old eventer wouldn't go in an outline anyway!
tongue.gif

Keep a contact but don't ask him to be round.

Ellie, it isn't you.
 
Kerrilli I found that advice fascinating and very educational.

[ QUOTE ]
i would stop trying to ride him in an outline to the fences. that's advanced stuff, not for babies. it's also a fairly modern mania (and very foreign), lots of great horses jumped with their noses stuck out, some horses focus much better like that.
it's great that you can get him in an outline for flatwork, but it stops him looking ahead - to the point where he is sometimes quite shocked to see a fence in front of him suddenly (e.g. first fence on first 2 rounds, and other places)

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally I cannot emphasise that enough. It has taken me two years to let my horse 'have his head' and not insist on being in a deep outline when jumping. So long as the connection remains and it doesn't effect the overall quality of the canter, there is no problem with it.

There was an article in Eventing magazine many moons ago, concerning horse eyesight, which was one of the most facinating articles I've ever read. When a horse is on the bit, its range of eyesight is SEVERLEY limited, whereas it can see 3+ times more when it raises its head even slightly. Thus to jump in an outline requires the horse to have a lot of confidence and trust in the rider and what the rider is asking of them. This is something that can take many years to achieve in a solid partnership, so it is no surprise, and completely fair from their point of view, that youngsters may lack some of this trust..
 
[ QUOTE ]
Thankyou everyone for all your helpful replys, really fantastic advice as usual

I am beginning to think I am the problem here, not the horse. He is too good for me and we are getting no where. I am so determined to get things sorted that maybe I have been missing this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Complete utter tosh!You have super natural balance, and you're really soft through your body and you look super over a fence- I would kill to have that ability ! Some horses just take a lot of time to get going!
 
Looking at the videos it looks to me that Jerry has very little balance in canter and so loses his balance around corners and so he ends up rushing.
When Honey was a youngster everytime we jumped we did grids, grids and more grids including bounces and 1 or 2 strides between the fences. They were always approached in trot and let the horse sort itself out. She is now 12 and could probably do grids with her eyes shuts, never has a pole down SJ and is such a superstar to jump.
I would also agree with MDM and Kerilli, about Jerry's head, a horse does not need to work in an outline when its jumping.
I would possibly also build small courses and just canter round them in a forward seat to just create a rhythm.

But please watch your ankle, you had a lot of time not riding and the ligaments and muscles need to strengthen up
Good luck he will get there in the end.
 
Yes, lifeslemons, i read that article. also one written by my vet about horses focussing differently when raising their heads (as the do when they see something in the distance) or lowering it (to see something close by). it was called "ramp retina", (theory being that they focussed like that rather than by expanding/contracting pupil as we do) but apparently the theory isn't believed any more... hmm, not so sure myself.
also, their balance changes radically as they move their big heavy head and neck up and down, and they have to LEARN to compensate - something they can't do if working in an outline to a fence when babies.
just another two penneth worth from me!
wink.gif


btw, does anyone remember a fantastic grey sj mare called Gem Twist who was on the U.S. team in the '80s? ridden by Greg something or other, i think. she used to stick her head in the air, poke her nose out, and would have jumped a house. i think she got an individual Olympic medal, can't recall exactly.
a lot of our old heroes in this country like Pennwood Forge Mill, Anglezarke etc used to be allowed to put their head where they liked, iirc.
 
LOts of people have already said what I thought about the quality of the canter, and I think Kat B said about obedience, this is where I cracked it with Sov and can really make or break a round. After Sov's little episodes (generally making an arse of himself and jumping the 'style' favoured by J) my trainer made my work on making my aids the single most important thing to him, so now his instinct is to do as my leg says (we are still working on the hand bit!!) which means we are always travelling in the right direction with a decent rhythm and a lot of power. In your video there isn't enough strength in the canter when he cat leaps, at this stage if he prefers to jump of a stronger stride then let him, otherwise he will start to lose confidence.
I also agree with the second opinion/different trainer, I also did this with Sov, and in one lesson the change was so radical it was almost miraculous!!
Don't beat yourself up and keep your options open.
P.s I said the other week about getting rid of the martingale and I am still convinced you should!
 
I did take it off in the warm up at he end when I figured it couldnt hurt, he did improve but hard to say that was due to the lack of martingale or just perservence. Will try again without it and see. I am still unsure about bits though, hate to keep changing stuff around as really unsettles him.

edited to add: both my trainers are brilliant, and wouldnt be without either of them, took me so long to find people who I actually learn from without feeling like I am riding like a sack of potatoes
tongue.gif
 
MH - This is NOT your fault, you are a lovely quiet rider, your just sat on a sensitive baby. I would agree with the comment about not riding him in an outline, let him sort out what hes doing, get confidence in himself. Just try to establish a rythm and keep him there without focusing on where his head is. Horses with their heads down have a very limited view of whats infront of them and he looks like he want to see where hes going to me! Id try and leave his martingale off as when he throws his head up the reins will sock him in the chops, maybe try a standing if he really needs it.
My horse is nothing like Jerry, he is a big growed up pony and hes about a sensitive as a corpse! So im probably not the best person to give advice!
Just to reinforce this is not your fault, i think you are a fab rider, id even let you ride my pony (i hate people riding him!) after that youd soon be running for jerry!
Maybe you should try having lessons on a schoolmaster type, get your confidence up, no point in you trying to persuade him jumping is great if your worried! Maybe just have a relaxing period while your ankle recovered, do lots of hill work up and down, riding over varied terrain, let him discover his own way and find his feet.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thankyou everyone for all your helpful replys, really fantastic advice as usual

I am beginning to think I am the problem here, not the horse. He is too good for me and we are getting no where. I am so determined to get things sorted that maybe I have been missing this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Complete utter tosh!You have super natural balance, and you're really soft through your body and you look super over a fence- I would kill to have that ability ! Some horses just take a lot of time to get going!

[/ QUOTE ]

Ouija Board wrote that, and i wholeheartedly agree. nothing at all wrong with your riding (esp considering your poorly ankle etc). you're doing a really nice job on a very green-looking horse.

something wrong with your trainer if they think he's just being a git though, imho.
frown.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
btw, does anyone remember a fantastic grey sj mare called Gem Twist who was on the U.S. team in the '80s? ridden by Greg something or other, i think. she used to stick her head in the air, poke her nose out, and would have jumped a house. i think she got an individual Olympic medal, can't recall exactly.
a lot of our old heroes in this country like Pennwood Forge Mill, Anglezarke etc used to be allowed to put their head where they liked, iirc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Greg Best was the guys name!
I was always taught even on ponies that it didn't matter where the head was as long as it was in front of you!!!
grin.gif

Words of wisdom from my Grandad (R.I.P Fatty Grandad).
 
Well she hasnt seen him at a comp though and he is never that bad in lessons so maybe she would say differntly if she saw the vid, will show her and see. She aggrees he is sensitive but he does take the p**s alot of the time, and can be downright naughty at others. She had him while I was off with my leg, and the improvement was amazing when he came back, she did wonders with him
 
What about those flexi rein things, never tried them and cant see how theyd work, but maybe worth a try! Dont know if you can compete in them.
Sorry about all my little random posts, just trying to give you some ideas! Feel free not to listen!
 
fair enough. i just see a horse who is confused and clueless but keeps jumping and trying for you, in spite of bashing his legs all the time on the pesky in-the-way-jumps. i've known horses who would have said "stuff this" or something along those lines...
i don't know how old he is, and it doesn't matter... i'd treat him like a 4 yr old as far as jumping is concerned, at least for a while.
very best of luck with him, he's a cracking sort, first time i've seen him in a vid.
 
No, dont apoligise, it is all very helpful
smile.gif


I just cant get my head round where to go next, I have spent so long concentrating on the canter and it is so much better, but seems to have had no effect. I dont know, maybe I need to go to sleep and think about it tomorrow with a more positive outlook
 
the canter's nice for flatwork, but it isn't helping him see the jumps, and i honestly think that's the most important thing now for him.
look, he carried on trying really hard, he didn't take advantage of your poorly leg, lots of horses might have been running out, pratting about, propping to a stop and all that rubbish, but instead he is so honest and determined to get his mum over every time... concentrate on that, and on the fact that once he's got a clue where his toes are, he'll be amazing, and i really believe that!
 
Ok, feel like I have something to work on now, I do think with him though that jumping and flatwork need to be different, and think a different bit would be better as his brain gets muddled. I am quite tempted to try a myler combi just as it would be so different, but dont want something that annoys him like the pelham did. The other thing I thought of trying was just a simple rubber jointed snaffle so he is really settled in his mouth. Then just concentrate on the rythem and balance rather than roundness for a bit.
 
Still say he is weak behind and you need to build that up. Agree about *outlines* not something I have EVER worried about SJing, I just want to feel power behind coming through into my hands! Don't beat yourself up chick, you ride him just fine but I think you have a million and one things running through your head and so does he, so it is a bit of blind leading the blind ATM. It WILL come!
 
yep, totally agree with that, mh.
the myler combo isn't harsh, it's different, hard to explain. my mare was almost uncontrollable in the snaffle-with-hooks version of the 3-barrel, and like a totally different, listening, malleable horse in the combo version.
i've got a combo comfort snaffle you can borrow if you like, if you don't know anyone with one... it's spare at the mo. pm me if you want.
nite nite all!
 
I would do schooling over grids but also over 2 fences on a 20 metre circle and concentrate on allowing him to find his own rhythm - I think that is the key TBH, somewhere where there will be a meeting of the minds. Keep it fun, keep ALL pressure off you and enjoy yourself.
 
Right, ive had a think and heres exactly what i would do if he was my horse (feel free to ignore, my horse is hardly a good advert for my skills!!)
Id would spend time doing very little, walking him around on a loose contact, up and down hills, over rough terrain, etc. Let him think where hes putting his feet, improve his proprioperception (sp?). I would incorperate doing raised poles, perhaps trying to vary the poles stride length, use maze work again to get him thinking about his feet. Get his confidence in himself up and put him in positive situations, ones that ask him questions but they wont overface him, it will build his trust if you put him in positive situations.
Come back to schooling but have two different kinds of schooling, flatwork ask him to work round but for jumping let him work in a way he is comfortable, just try and keep the impulsion. You dont necessarily have to jump, just work as if you will.
Then do grid work, concentrating on him always going forwards, ask him different questions, but keep with his comfort zone, if hes being sloppy over smaller fences use v-poles etc to get him to pick up, but dont just stick up the fences.
Then get him out to as many competion environments but where your in control of the class eg. clear rounds that you can alter the height to what you want, or clinics etc. Just steer clear of piling on the pressure.
Whilst i was doing this i would try and have a couple of lessons on a schoolmaster, to keep me confident. My friend used to be fearless but then she had a tricky horse, he made her feel useless and her lack of confidence was causing him to stop more.
Sorry for the essay!! It could be complete crap! I think you have a lovely horse, he is a very big baby, but i agree with kerilli he looks very genuine, some horse i know would of had you on the floor before you got round the corner to the first fence! You ride him in a lovely quiet way and i think this helps his genuine-ness!
Good Luck and always keep smiling, stop putting pressure on yourself to be ready, you can only progress when hes ready. Even if you feel your going backwards!!!
grin.gif
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top