The Why of Horse 'Problem' Behaviour

A friend of a friend got a message the other day that the horse she sold recently had dumped it's new rider through a fence at a comp. Guess why they sold the horse. After sending it away for schooling multiple times with no change in behaviour once it was home again, it was decided the horse "had the measure of her" and "just knew how to get her off" so just had to be sold. Absolutely grim.
 
Ambers Echo said:
Yes absolutely. I have shared this picture before. She was locked on, committed and on a good stride but slammed on the anchors ar the last second. The effort she needed to stop was so much greater than the effort needed to hop over. Clearly the hopping over was just something she felt she could not do. If you removed the jump that would have been an impressive sliding stop! I ended the lesson at that point and the instructor was unimpressed: "you can't leave it like that. She needs to jump'. Nope.
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I had a similar experience with a well-known and very experienced XC trainer with a horse I had years back. We had tried, and failed, numerous times to get my horse to jump this particular brush fence. There was nothing physically wrong with him, but he did not like that fence. When I suggested calling it a day her reply was "well, what would you do if it was a competition and your horse didn't like the fence? just go home?" - honestly, yes, we would. He either did not understand the question or did not have the confidence to be tackling that fence yet, there was nothing to be gained from forcing him to do so on that day.
 
frankieduck said:
I had a similar experience with a well-known and very experienced XC trainer with a horse I had years back. We had tried, and failed, numerous times to get my horse to jump this particular brush fence. There was nothing physically wrong with him, but he did not like that fence. When I suggested calling it a day her reply was "well, what would you do if it was a competition and your horse didn't like the fence? just go home?" - honestly, yes, we would. He either did not understand the question or did not have the confidence to be tackling that fence yet, there was nothing to be gained from forcing him to do so on that day.
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I had to argue with an instructor to put a plank fence down to literally 1 plank. I said to her I have no idea if there is something up, but this is a pony who doesn't generally refuse and right now I can't work out if its just he's taken a dislike to the planks or he is sore somewhere. If we can just ask him to walk over a plank so I can at least tick the confidence 'I don't like that fence' then I'll stop just in case he is sore.

I have no idea if there was a problem but we went back to the same venue 2 months later and he hopped over the plank fence without an issue - so whether it was pain or training I decided my approach of walk over 1 plank was definitely the right one.

Very much the attitude of Make Him Do It which I wasn't happy with. I avoid some clinics now which is a shame.
 
I've also had it where trigger stacking has meant the horse saying no to jumping even the tiniest stick on the floor, I refused to 'tell her off' because that wasn't going to help! I gave her 5 mins to calm down, showed her the tiny jump again, let her process it and then she was happy to go again, hit harder is very rarely the asnwer...
 
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Trigger stacking is overlooked so much. I hear people all the time saying "he's just being naughty, he didn't spook at that yesterday!" or "he just spooks to be naughty when it suits him", with little understanding of how the triggers have stacked to that heightened emotional state where the horse can no longer cope with things they might normally be able to. I always think of it like being in your house alone at night - one minute you're fine, and then you hear a strange noise that sets you on high alert. You go to investigate but suddenly every shadow or door moving in the wind makes you jump out of your skin because you're in a heightened state of anxiety. Then I think how I would feel if jumped at those things and somebody smacked me across the head and told me to 'stop being so stupid' and how that would help my already fragile mental state. On that note, punishing horses for spooking is my absolute bugbear, I used to hack with a lady that would smack her horse every time he spooked at anything and it made me want to smack her own head clean off her shoulders.
 
I do believe some horses truly can just have naughty days. However, I now believe that more often than not probably something physical isn't right when the horse repeatedly has 'naughty' days.

Way back in the day, decades ago when I was a child and young teenager, very often we would be shouted at to 'push him/her through, push them through, they are taking the p***.:( I shudder to think how many poor horses and ponies I pony kicked through discomfort and pain but I am pretty sure it was not a one off thing. I am ashamed of that, but like to think I have made up for it with more responsible care and understanding I grew up and started making my own assessments, decisions and observations.
 
Mrs. Jingle said:
I do believe some horses truly can just have naughty days. However, I now believe that more often than not probably something physical isn't right when the horse repeatedly has 'naughty' days.

Way back in the day, decades ago when I was a child and young teenager, very often we would be shouted at to 'push him/her through, push them through, they are taking the p***.:( I shudder to think how many poor horses and ponies I pony kicked through discomfort and pain but I am pretty sure it was not a one off thing. I am ashamed of that, but like to think I have made up for it with more responsible care and understanding I grew up and started making my own assessments, decisions and observations.
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You can't blame children for doing what they've been taught :( but I do blame adults who should know better, and I struggle to let "but they've got so many years experience" sway me. I can count the number of local riding instructors I would go to for help on half a hand.

If I look for a minute I can usually find a good reason for a "naughty" day. Not enough grass, too much grass, she's in season, somebody else is in season, windy, hot, cold, needed to pee, flies, has done too much work, hasn't done enough work etc etc etc the list is two miles long, usually including "what phase is the moon in" before I get to "horse just fancied being a problem"
 
I'm not sure if this is going off on a tangent but a friend's horse was being particularly difficult one day and eventually she sighed and said "I think I'll leave it today, for all I know maybe he just has a bad headache or something" - and I have forever wondered since if horses get headaches?! Does anyone know? Obviously apart from TMJ pain etc. - is it a thing?
 
frankieduck said:
I'm not sure if this is going off on a tangent but a friend's horse was being particularly difficult one day and eventually she sighed and said "I think I'll leave it today, for all I know maybe he just has a bad headache or something" - and I have forever wondered since if horses get headaches?! Does anyone know? Obviously apart from TMJ pain etc. - is it a thing?
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Someone else was talking about this recently somewhere, I think. May have been here. But I don't see why they wouldn't. Their behaviour definitely changes when they can feel a storm coming for example, and I'll get pressure headaches from that too.
 
frankieduck said:
I'm not sure if this is going off on a tangent but a friend's horse was being particularly difficult one day and eventually she sighed and said "I think I'll leave it today, for all I know maybe he just has a bad headache or something" - and I have forever wondered since if horses get headaches?! Does anyone know? Obviously apart from TMJ pain etc. - is it a thing?
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I have no idea if horses have headaches, but when a horse I believe to be perfectly healthy has a bad day, its the first thing I wonder? Of course if they keep having bad days its time for a vet, but if its just a very rare off day, I tend to think maybe they slept badly, or have a headache.
 
I've trained/worked with, a lot of horses over the years, both my own, and those I've been employed to do, and the "why" of the behaviour is always the most important thing.

As an example, I'll describe two of my horses first show experiences. I bought horse B as a foal, and he's always been a very easy, laid back confident guy, he did all the usual pre show prep, arena hires, lessons, polework clinics etc without any stress. So we went to the first show feeling confident, and he totally surprised me by being utterly overwhelmed and giving the feeling all he wanted to do was hide in a corner under a blanket. I did lots of chatting and patting trying to encourage him, and gradually he got braver in the warm up, went into the test, did a horrible, stuffy trot and when asked to canter said no. I patted him, retired, took him back in the warm up where he felt braver, and got a canter there, so told him he was a genius, and took him home.
We went back to the same venue two weeks later, having done nothing different in the intervening fortnight, and he felt a million times braver, and won both his prelims on 73%, canter was not an issue. I'm sure that watching him he would have just looked horribly backward and behind my leg, and I bet lots of people would have wanted to give him a smack and "make him get on with it". I appreciate that, but I know him, and it felt crystal clear to me that he was scared and that was his way of expressing his fear, so I just gave him as much reassurance as possible, no smacking, just praise and encouragement, and it worked.

Horse C was generally a more sensitive, quirky type, and took a bit longer with her pre show prep, and when she got to her first show she was more concerned by the warm up, but held it together. Went in to do her first test and felt green and distracted, but not overwhelmed, I repeated a movement with her as she wasnt paying attention, this worked very well, she needed to know that I was still there, supporting her and riding her as I do at home, that gave her confidence, and she improved by 9% from her first test to her second.

So horse C needed hand holding in a positive, confident way and horse B needed a hug and a hot chocolate. Neither of them needed smacking or being "made" to do it, they needed the appropriate support for what they were feeling, as all horses do, but without knowing the "why" its very hard to give the correct response.
 
Yesterday I took my horse out on a route he knows well but there was a pile of tree trunks stacked by forestry workers since our last outing. Poor horse was very shocked, ran backwards in a blind panic. I managed to get off and hold him while he stared and stared at it in horror. Managed to get him a little nearer but no way was he going past it. We will go and look at it a few more times, OH will come out with us on bike, and then he'll eventually go past and it won't be a problem in the future. Forcing him to go past would have escalated things very badly and he'd be less likely to trust me in the future. He wasn't being naughty. His "why" was genuine fear.
 
At the risk of sounding mad, I feel like a lot of it is down to how adept a horse is at communication.

I have one who can communicate very effectively. You immediately know if she's not feeling herself, or if she's uncomfortable or unhappy about something. She's good at directing you to the source of the issue. You never need to think "I wish they could talk" with Mim.

The other finds it more difficult to organise her thoughts and communicate, and I think reacts rather than thinks.

With Mim, if she doesn't like the saddle, you know it. When she developed ulcers, we knew it and caught it very early. If she doesn't like another horse or a person, you know it. If she doesn't want to be out or in, you know it. If you listen to her, then there are no issues. If she's 'misbehaving' then either you aren't listening properly so she feels she needs to shout (in which case, I'm on her side and everyone needs to listen to her properly), or she's decided she's smarter than you and she's playing up.

With Miri, she is the kind of horse who would do anything to please humans - and other horses actually, she's quite needy - but I don't think she can 'talk' so pain or unhappiness all sort of conflates into general reaction, and it's harder to unpick. I think she's the sort of horse where 'misbehavior' will generally be discomfort or stress but that it would be harder for anyone to work out exactly what the issue is.
 
I agree Lady G but how communicative they are comes down to individual personality and also their history. If they have never been listened to or have been punished for it, they either won't communicate until they burst or will come at everything with a "f-you" attitude from the start.

I probably do sound mad to people who think Sadie just takes the p out of me but I am yet to be wrong when I know something is up, even if it takes me a while to figure it out. It took her a while to get there though and if you put her under enough pressure she will still just freeze and shut down again.
 
It’s so so easy to see these things in retrospect and sometimes more difficult to see them in the moment.

I spent years not being especially happy about how “loud” I had to be to get the Fuzzball to listen / do as he was asked under saddle.

I spent years making excuses for why he found so many basic things so hard / why he seemed to struggle so much with anything even remotely strenuous.

Now every ridden memory is tainted by thoughts of how uncomfortable he was likely to have been at various points / wondering how significant the weirdness at the base of his neck was and how that might have affected what he was physically able to do and what would have happened if I’d asked for certain investigations earlier.

Horses that are more “expressive” in their opinions are a little easier than the ones that tell you more quietly and stoically and hope you’ll eventually figure it out.

I don’t have an answer and the guilt is definitely affecting my confidence in my own decision making in some not very fun ways atm
 
LEC said:
I think one thing you are forgetting is if you have a young horse and you are asking more of them, sometimes you will hit bumps. It will be physical/mental and I am sure it classes as discomfort but maybe not pain. It is a very fine art to balance a young horses body that you are building and strengthening and sometimes you get it wrong. A good rider will back off and change the question, a poor one will carry on adding pressure.

I had a scenario yesterday warming up for dr where my horse who is very sensitive slammed on brakes on canter. I had asked too much flexion to right. Fine with that level in walk, trot but needed to be built up slower in canter. Now I could force her through to shut up and get on or you take a step back and off you go again.

I am also of the opinion that horses do need to be put under pressure sometimes. A classic is I am really strict about young horses working with tiredness. They will maybe jump for 15 mins and they are tired and then I will carry on working them easily on the flat just for another 5 mins so they learn to mentally and physically strengthen.
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I want to add onto this post a bit.

When we do strengthening and suppling work, specifically, it can be quite uncomfortable. I do weight training and pilates and yoga, and trust me, I'm happiest when it's over. But I have a very big prefrontal cortex that enables me to tolerate the pain/discomfort for a few minutes because I know that it will lead to gaining muscle/suppleness, which will subsequently make the movement easier. Horses don't have this ability. They only know that what we are asking is very difficult in the moment. And sometimes they will express their unhappiness quite forcefully.

My own approach is to not shy away from the hard work, but to always reward my horse for trying. It really pays off if they can 'push through' for a few seconds or a minute, because they trust that you will be fair and give them a release/reward.

This is of course a separate issue from genuine pain issues. I guess my point is that there are moments of stiffness/discomfort/mild pain that can occur as part of athletic strengthening work.
 
Curly_Feather said:
My own approach is to not shy away from the hard work, but to always reward my horse for trying. It really pays off if they can 'push through' for a few seconds or a minute, because they trust that you will be fair and give them a release/reward.

This is of course a separate issue from genuine pain issues. I guess my point is that there are moments of stiffness/discomfort/mild pain that can occur as part of athletic strengthening work.
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This method has paid off massively for us as well, I started just rewarding for like tiny moments of just having a soft neck (in the context of "you don't have to be a giraffe, please relax") and it took no time at all for pony to catch the drift that if she carries herself and lifts her back she gets a sweetie. She obviously found it hard to begin with but there was nothing like a sweetie to get her to try 😂 It does also mean that if she can't offer that she probably genuinely can't, and with ongoing subtle soundness issues that information is very very valuable!
 
Ben Atkinson has this approach for Liberty work called rewarding the try because then when they find something hard they keep trying and at the end of the day with Liberty work that is vital as will go wrong a lot to start with as they build their understanding. He says if you only reward the correct result they become demoralised and give up quickly as they build up their training. Essentially if you want 4 horses circling round you while at liberty they have to keep trying as can stop at anytime through choice.
 
Saddle fit. Again and again and again.

Went to visit a friend yesterday, her horse had just been scoped for ulcers due to behaviours under saddle. None in sight apparently. Has had time off then vet and scope, vet suggesting Bute trial as no lameness to be seen.

So I asked if she wanted me to check the saddle while I was there. She said she was sure it was ok but why not. Did it fit? Nope! Fitted at the front and the back but was bridging in the middle. Went through her pile of spare saddles, found one to fit, horse sighed in relief and gave me very sweet thank you nuzzles. On got my friend, horse still happy, walked around and I got another relieved nuzzle from the horse!
 
Agree with everything in your post AE, and with the other posts about how different horses communicate, some better than others.

Just wanted to add something that I don’t think has been mentioned: how quickly they pick up on something their human has taught them, either on purpose or not, which is then very hard to undo and can look like bad behaviour.

One example I can give is when I broke my left ankle a few yrs ago, I was very nervous about putting that foot in the stirrup so for the first few rides, I got on from the wrong side and gave a treat once I was on to make sure he stood still.

Once I got confident again and went back to getting on from the ‘right’ side, he wouldn’t stand still, kept swinging his bum away. My initial thought was, he’s being annoying and I felt like I wanted to tell him off, and I did a bit, but he just would not comply.

The penny dropped (sorry, I’m a bit thick) when I stopped trying to get him to stand, and he calmly parked himself round so I could get on with my right leg and he would get his treat!

And that was after maybe 3/4 rides of getting on the wrong way, a habit was formed and it was really hard to get him out of it. Imagine if he had gone to a new home, he might have been badly told off or sent to the vet to find out why he didn’t want to be mounted.

Another example is when I changed from a forward facing lorry to a rear facing, and one horse took ages to stop dragging me the wrong way in the lorry.
 
smolmaus said:
I agree Lady G but how communicative they are comes down to individual personality and also their history. If they have never been listened to or have been punished for it, they either won't communicate until they burst or will come at everything with a "f-you" attitude from the start.

I probably do sound mad to people who think Sadie just takes the p out of me but I am yet to be wrong when I know something is up, even if it takes me a while to figure it out. It took her a while to get there though and if you put her under enough pressure she will still just freeze and shut down again.
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I agree. My two are like chalk and cheese. My older mare is very introverted and self sufficient. She very much can take care of herself thank you very much. If stressed she reverts to bullish cob. Now I recognise that bullishness as stress, not naughtiness it’s easier to deal with.

My ridden gelding is very open and ‘chatty’. Wears his heart on his sleeve, he’s a mummy’s boy and wants his hand held. When stressed he reverts to ”RUN!” But bless him, he’s got a lot better at trusting my judgement, and if I tell him there’s no need to run he will listen.

Ref trigger stacking, my boy is very difficult to monitor. He’s generally a laid back guy, he is susceptible to trigger stacking but masks it well so it comes across as flipping from ‘everything is fine’ to ‘I’m over threshold’ in a second with no warning.
 
Jellymoon said:
Agree with everything in your post AE, and with the other posts about how different horses communicate, some better than others.

Just wanted to add something that I don’t think has been mentioned: how quickly they pick up on something their human has taught them, either on purpose or not, which is then very hard to undo and can look like bad behaviour.

One example I can give is when I broke my left ankle a few yrs ago, I was very nervous about putting that foot in the stirrup so for the first few rides, I got on from the wrong side and gave a treat once I was on to make sure he stood still.

Once I got confident again and went back to getting on from the ‘right’ side, he wouldn’t stand still, kept swinging his bum away. My initial thought was, he’s being annoying and I felt like I wanted to tell him off, and I did a bit, but he just would not comply.

The penny dropped (sorry, I’m a bit thick) when I stopped trying to get him to stand, and he calmly parked himself round so I could get on with my right leg and he would get his treat!

And that was after maybe 3/4 rides of getting on the wrong way, a habit was formed and it was really hard to get him out of it. Imagine if he had gone to a new home, he might have been badly told off or sent to the vet to find out why he didn’t want to be mounted.

Another example is when I changed from a forward facing lorry to a rear facing, and one horse took ages to stop dragging me the wrong way in the lorry.
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When bringing in from the field I have my mare in my right hand (she can be stronger) and my gelding on the left.
My gelding has (I think) picked up on this because a couple of times now he’s rearranged himself - unasked- to be on my left side. I told him he was very clever.

My mare also - years ago- used a trick I’d taught her against me. I’d taught her to ‘give a hoof’ for a treat.
She was also a daemon for diving to grass when on hacks.
One day she tried to dive for grass and I stopped her
She did ‘give a hoof’ which I thought was cute / funny.
Then give a hoof became frustrated pawing…still a bit funny
Then frustrated pawing became mini rear…hmmm
She discovered that a mini rear followed by a small buck was enough to dump me so she could eat grass uninterrupted.
I could see her working the puzzle.
She actually had the upper hand for a few weeks, it took me a while to find a counter to her scheme.
 
little_critter said:
When bringing in from the field I have my mare in my right hand (she can be stronger) and my gelding on the left.
My gelding has (I think) picked up on this because a couple of times now he’s rearranged himself - unasked- to be on my left side. I told him he was very clever.

My mare also - years ago- used a trick I’d taught her against me. I’d taught her to ‘give a hoof’ for a treat.
She was also a daemon for diving to grass when on hacks.
One day she tried to dive for grass and I stopped her
She did ‘give a hoof’ which I thought was cute / funny.
Then give a hoof became frustrated pawing…still a bit funny
Then frustrated pawing became mini rear…hmmm
She discovered that a mini rear followed by a small buck was enough to dump me so she could eat grass uninterrupted.
I could see her working the puzzle.
She actually had the upper hand for a few weeks, it took me a while to find a counter to her scheme.
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They are so clever, form habits extremely quickly and never forget, so sometimes this could come across as being naughty or in pain. So especially those ones that get sold on to a new home, very hard to know if they are behaving that way becuase it’s simply different from their previous home.
 
Nocturnal said:
I do believe horses can be ‘naughty’ just not in the way it’s often meant. They can be naughty by way of mischief making or being cheeky, but it’s always good humoured imo not something like stopping at a fence.
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I had a horse who knew exactly how to misbehave to get himself out of doing work. He preferred being in his stable eating to having to do anything (that he considered) over exertion!
 
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