Crazy_cat_lady
Well-Known Member
Thank you and that's exactly my point - I wouldn't even think about saying it about WM/NH/PN etc. I'm sure GN is far too successful to care what some random is saying on a forum
The Wilson's racehorses
- Thread starter Crazy_cat_lady
- Start date
Thank you and that's exactly my point - I wouldn't even think about saying it about WM/NH/PN etc. I'm sure GN is far too successful to care what some random is saying on a forum
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
I used to love racing. Probably because growing up my dad and step mum had a race horse and a trip to the races was always a real treat. Those Childhood influences lasted far too long I think. I can’t stomach it anymore.
I can’t get over the fact that they ride yearlings and race at 2. They are babies. I don’t understand why it’s allowed. In fact, celebrated.
I can’t get over the fact that they ride yearlings and race at 2. They are babies. I don’t understand why it’s allowed. In fact, celebrated.
ShowjumpingPrincess
Well-Known Member
Totally agree. I understand accidents happen and what happened with Unexpected Depth looked like an unfortunate accident with him clipping itself on the horse next to him (which had also been impeded).
However Clashabreeda was very clearly a tired fall. A red hot fit horse over good ground could get away with running two days apart but she was a maiden that hadn't raced since Feb then three races in 11 days?! The last two over bottomless ground... just selfish.
Crazy_cat_lady
Well-Known Member
In relation to horses being over races, and linked to the original owners this thread was about
Din Din - 21 runs since April, last ran 24/11, entered for a race at Plumpton Monday
D'Jango - 19 runs since Dec 2021 - last ran 27/12 in the Welsh national - entered for the Sussex national on the 2nd January.. admittedly "only" lasted a circuit of the Welsh national but didn't perform at all
Red Happy - 5 years old - 23 runs this year. Last ran 20/12. Entered for the Sussex national 2/1
Abayu du Mathan - 22 runs since Dec 2021 - last ran 7/12 - entered for Sussex national 2/1
Why isn't a trend being noticed with this owners horses and the authorities stepping in? It's like a different form of the greed occurring with Cashabreeda. Surely they have enough staying chasers to place them so she gets to watch one of hers run on a regular basis, but the load is being shared between them?
Maybe if these were sprinters but they're staying chasers. Rather than have 3 in a race, why not place them so you target 3 races that month? I'm surprised DP hasn't said anything as surely it's affecting his reputation and they are often a stable who seem to do well by their retired horses - non racing agreements/posting about them etc. I don't know about his other horses but they don't seem to appear as often
I don't know how long until they are officially running - they may just be entered and get taken out. Their form doesnt seem great either so surely this suggests they need a break?
NH is often questioned on TV for withdrawing horses, so why isn't this being questioned?
Din Din - 21 runs since April, last ran 24/11, entered for a race at Plumpton Monday
D'Jango - 19 runs since Dec 2021 - last ran 27/12 in the Welsh national - entered for the Sussex national on the 2nd January.. admittedly "only" lasted a circuit of the Welsh national but didn't perform at all
Red Happy - 5 years old - 23 runs this year. Last ran 20/12. Entered for the Sussex national 2/1
Abayu du Mathan - 22 runs since Dec 2021 - last ran 7/12 - entered for Sussex national 2/1
Why isn't a trend being noticed with this owners horses and the authorities stepping in? It's like a different form of the greed occurring with Cashabreeda. Surely they have enough staying chasers to place them so she gets to watch one of hers run on a regular basis, but the load is being shared between them?
Maybe if these were sprinters but they're staying chasers. Rather than have 3 in a race, why not place them so you target 3 races that month? I'm surprised DP hasn't said anything as surely it's affecting his reputation and they are often a stable who seem to do well by their retired horses - non racing agreements/posting about them etc. I don't know about his other horses but they don't seem to appear as often
I don't know how long until they are officially running - they may just be entered and get taken out. Their form doesnt seem great either so surely this suggests they need a break?
NH is often questioned on TV for withdrawing horses, so why isn't this being questioned?
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reynold
Well-Known Member
Maybe something will be done now one of the horses has died whilst racing.
I think I read that every racing fatality is investigated to see if the death could be prevented.
I think normally this investigation covers fence condition, ground conditions, etc. I don't know if frequency of the horse being raced is taken into account in the investigation. If it isn't perhaps it should be.
Perhaps EoaShelf knows more about fatality investigations and whether the trainer is questioned?
I think I read that every racing fatality is investigated to see if the death could be prevented.
I think normally this investigation covers fence condition, ground conditions, etc. I don't know if frequency of the horse being raced is taken into account in the investigation. If it isn't perhaps it should be.
Perhaps EoaShelf knows more about fatality investigations and whether the trainer is questioned?
tristar
Well-Known Member
horses should not be running in this unsuitable ground.
its obvious the owners and trainers have no clue about horses, they are making complete fools of themselves, and utter tragedies out of horses lives, such as they are.
if a horse has a heavy race it should be vetted the day after, then rested for a minimum period. then vetted before the next race, including galloping speed to test the heart and stamina and muscle soreness
some of the jockeys are very young and inexperienced, under pressure to perform, impress, its a dodgy deck of cards for the horses to have to deal with.
bonny
Well-Known Member
Who has died that you think should be investigated ?
Elf On A Shelf
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They look at the track, ground conditions and how the horse died. Some horses are taken away for a pm - partly depending on course, partly on owners/insurance request, some for use in vet schools (which is how Howard Johnson got caught out). There are internal studies across the year to determine if certain factors were common in injury as well as death. In 2020 - just after racing resumed from covid - a large number of flat horses (as it restarted first with little warning) picked up bone and soft tissue injuries I'm the first 2 months. This was due to horses being rushed back to fitness to run ASAP. Trainers learned their lessons and the jumpers, who to be fair had more warning of racing resuming, came back fitter and better able go cope with racing than their flat counterparts.
So yes whilst every injury and death on the track is looked into, unless one particular course is the issue then most of it really is down to bad luck - or owners being twats.
The horse that ran 2 days apart - I can only assume the Irish work the same way we do but I can not be certain. That horse, over here, would have been trotted up and checked over by the racecourse vets when it arrived at the track and had been deemed fit to run.
So yes whilst every injury and death on the track is looked into, unless one particular course is the issue then most of it really is down to bad luck - or owners being twats.
The horse that ran 2 days apart - I can only assume the Irish work the same way we do but I can not be certain. That horse, over here, would have been trotted up and checked over by the racecourse vets when it arrived at the track and had been deemed fit to run.
Gamebird
Well-Known Member
tristar
Well-Known Member
the state of most ground at the mo makes me think twice before turning out let alone racing, and if they are not turned out on wet ground normally, or actually train in it, it really is a huge adjustment to suddenly have to gallop and jump in deep going flat out
is a trot up before a race really the best they can do?
is a trot up before a race really the best they can do?
bonny
Well-Known Member
If they didn’t race on heavy ground in Ireland they would have very little racing at all in the winter and actually its safer than fast ground for jump racing. Horses get tired and there are lots pulling up but the races are slower and the falls tend to be easier than fast ground falls. Yesterday was just a bad day, the two horses who died in the novice chase had nothing to do with the ground and the one who died at Limerick was still going ok when she fell so it’s a stretch to say it was due to the ground. It’s not uncommon for horses to run twice at festival meetings.
Gamebird
Well-Known Member
It's tough though - currently it's palpation of the front legs, auscultation of the heart and a trot up. And it's not all races. It started with just the grade 1s at the Cheltenham festival, then all races at the Cheltenham Festival, then the Grand National meeting, and now other races have been added, mostly races where there is likely to be extreme endurance involved, or those with a higher level of public scrutiny. For example at Aintree a few weeks ago the runners in the Becher Chase were examined, but not those in the other races that day. Some horses are also examine dat home by BHA vets where concerns are raised. I would like to extend this to all runners in all races, but this would add greatly to the time involved, and would mean that runners had to be at the track a lot earlier than they currently are. Plus we would need more experienced BHA vets at every meeting.
If you want to extend this further what would you like to see added? (this is a genuine question) I think everyone in horses knows that a horse can have a 2hr 5 stage vetting one day, and still suffer a catastrophic injury a day later. And I don't think anyone would suggest an examination to the extent of a 5 stage vetting. It would be logistically impossible.
Or do you go to the extent of the Melbourne Cup and conduct lower limb MRI scans of every runner before racing? Again this would be financially prohibitive, and would need repeating every time a horse ran to allow for sub-clinical injuries incurred in training between runs.
As an equine vet with a strong interest in racing, and many years with a racecourse vet qualification it is a subject I am very interested in. Improving welfare has to be at the core of the industry, but I am still not sure what the answer is.
AdorableAlice
Well-Known Member
Gamebird and Elf fell off the shelve question.
Is there a monitoring/reporting system where the racecourse vets are made aware of the Wilson situation horses so the frequently entered and run horses are noted and looked at ? even if these horses were seen does the racecourse vet have the power to say 'enough' based on frequency of running poorly. I understand a lame horse would be a none runner but who actually has the final say in determining if the horse should not be run for other reasons.
Owners pay trainers to train and prepare. Owners pay the trainer and expect to see their horse and colours on the racecourse with all the kudos that goes with that. So, in the Wilson case is it the trainer needing to keep the fees coming in, simply allowing the horses to keep running to avoid the owner removing the horses and ignoring the welfare or moral issues ?
The top of the sport is always in the spotlight, we are all used to seeing the big yards doing well and boasting million pound prize income in a season, but there are hundreds of much smaller trainers grinding away with low rated horses competing for a few hundred pounds. A quick look at mid week racing on a small track is showing £252 for 4th place for instance. It will cost more in lorry fees to take the horse to the track then that.
This is just a musing, but should the regulators have some sort of flow chart monitoring the numbers of starts/results/performance/falls etc and have a cut off point where further starts cannot happen until the horse has had a break to mop up the Wilson type owner ?
Is there a monitoring/reporting system where the racecourse vets are made aware of the Wilson situation horses so the frequently entered and run horses are noted and looked at ? even if these horses were seen does the racecourse vet have the power to say 'enough' based on frequency of running poorly. I understand a lame horse would be a none runner but who actually has the final say in determining if the horse should not be run for other reasons.
Owners pay trainers to train and prepare. Owners pay the trainer and expect to see their horse and colours on the racecourse with all the kudos that goes with that. So, in the Wilson case is it the trainer needing to keep the fees coming in, simply allowing the horses to keep running to avoid the owner removing the horses and ignoring the welfare or moral issues ?
The top of the sport is always in the spotlight, we are all used to seeing the big yards doing well and boasting million pound prize income in a season, but there are hundreds of much smaller trainers grinding away with low rated horses competing for a few hundred pounds. A quick look at mid week racing on a small track is showing £252 for 4th place for instance. It will cost more in lorry fees to take the horse to the track then that.
This is just a musing, but should the regulators have some sort of flow chart monitoring the numbers of starts/results/performance/falls etc and have a cut off point where further starts cannot happen until the horse has had a break to mop up the Wilson type owner ?
Steerpike
Well-Known Member
I wonder if the bha could add rest periods in, the trainers wouldn't get the grief from the owners as it would be the bha rule.. I know it won't stop fatalities but it might go some way to stopping horses being run into the ground like the Wilson's seem to be doing.
Elf On A Shelf
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As far as I know no. Horses that are repeatedly pulled up, fall, refuse to race, refuse to go in the stalls or more often than not are unruly will be kept a close eye on and possibly banned from racing again by the BHA. But as to the frequency of running - no - provided the horse presents sound of lung, heart and limb at the racecourse for the vet checks. If the horses looked like absolute train wreck cruelty cases at the racecourse the vets would take note, possibly deny the horse a run and the trainer would be spoken to, have someone sent to the yard to look at the horses and possibly be fined. But Pipe must be keeping them well fed and probably doing very, very little work at home between runs to keep their weight up. We do not run down that way so I couldn't tell you if their horses are flagged for trot ups more often than not.
As to why Pipe keeps running them - I have no idea. They pay him a lot of money, money I suspect he would struggle to survive without at the moment, every month. But yards have lost big owners before and have survived. Pipe himself lost of a lot of owners after his dad retired and has built himself back up before. Mullins lost a lot of Gigginstown horses in one fell swoop. McCain lost half his string, which amounted to about 60 horses, in the space of a month. They bounced back and have come back stronger.
Some owners don't care how much prize money they win they just want winners and are happy winning £3k round Hexham the same as they would be winning £300k round Cheltenham. Some owners just like the bragging rights of having a racehorse no matter how well it does. But you would think with the sheer amount of money they are throwing at these horses they would want them to win more often than not rather than just run for the sake of running. But who knows what goes on inside their heads.
Crazy_cat_lady
Well-Known Member
Would a rule according to entries and distance of last race work? E.g if a horse ran 3 miles plus on its last race it needs to be left X days/ weeks before it take part in another race? The length of time will be shorter for flat/sprint type races. The rule can be overridden if say they unseat on the first circuit. A horse fall means X days need to be left?
That rule would have stopped Casha (not Wilson horse) being entered 2 days after her last race - of course we can't guarantee this was the cause of her fatal fall, but it could have been a contributing factor.
It definitely feels like a blind eye is being turned to the Wilson's horses, it almost feels like it's going to take one of them Keeling over and dying of exhaustion before the BHA look into their handling of them. I've just looked at DP list of horses in training, they aren't small numbers (obviously nowhere near WM/PN etc numbers) but enough to surely not need the negative association from the Wilson's horses.
Also who has final say over where and when a horse runs? I'm pretty sure none of DP's other horses do this much which makes me think they have him over a barrel. It looks like she has about 12 horses, all with DP, so must be a large source of income.
That rule would have stopped Casha (not Wilson horse) being entered 2 days after her last race - of course we can't guarantee this was the cause of her fatal fall, but it could have been a contributing factor.
It definitely feels like a blind eye is being turned to the Wilson's horses, it almost feels like it's going to take one of them Keeling over and dying of exhaustion before the BHA look into their handling of them. I've just looked at DP list of horses in training, they aren't small numbers (obviously nowhere near WM/PN etc numbers) but enough to surely not need the negative association from the Wilson's horses.
Also who has final say over where and when a horse runs? I'm pretty sure none of DP's other horses do this much which makes me think they have him over a barrel. It looks like she has about 12 horses, all with DP, so must be a large source of income.
Crazy_cat_lady
Well-Known Member
That's exactly what I've just suggested - it would mean people like the Wilsons are then forced to place their horses better and not just scatter gun approach any big staying chase with them.
It's also about the after care of the horses - will Red Happy, with this number of frequent runs already at 5, be in a fit state to stand up to a 2nd career? He's already run 33 times under rules at 5 - Tiger Roll who was around from 4 until 12 ran 45 times over his career. (If I've interpreted RP correctly)
Elf On A Shelf
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It would be a though and possibly something worth emailing them about. Obviously you would need to take into consideration the type of races the horses are running in. As I say a 5 furlong sprint could run every few days as its just a bit of work to them with prize money attached. But a staying soft ground chaser you couldn't really do that to as its a much harder race. I say this. We ran a horse 6 days apart in 2 3mile chases. The first race was on soft ground, the horse jumped away in 2nd/3rd place settled, went on 2 out and won in a canter having never been pressed or raced hard. It was a 3 mile schooling session pretty much as he was the far superior horse in the race. He ran 6 days later, again over 3 mile fences on good ground this time to avoid a 7lb penalty. Again he tracked the leaders, settled and lobbing away, made his move 3 out and strode on to win pretty much unchallenged and again didn't have a hard race. He did very little work between runs - just went for yeehaas eound the farm and he had a good few days off completely afterwards and didn't run again for over a month. But that is a real reality for us to do that with a horse. Most of ours are at the very least 3 weeks between runs for the jumpers.
As to entries - entries go in 6 days before the race. So you can enter horses multiple times and choose the race/ground/track that suits you best nearer the time. Declarations go in by 10am 2 days before. So a race run on a Sunday will have been entered on the previous Monday and declared on the Friday. You can also make multiple declarations. So at the time of Casha's 2nd declaration the horse would not have actually ran in its first race. This is often done incase the rain changes the ground or the horses doesn't complete a circuit and so hasn't really ran a race meaning you have a fresh enough horse for the race 2 days later. Not many will take up both declarations.
Steerpike
Well-Known Member
Maybe something can be put into place when the entries and declarations are made, say a horse entered and declared a lot is flagged up. I know endurance is a completely different sport but we have rest periods, for fei endurance the rest periods are longer the longer the distance is, also time is added on to the rest periods if the horse has failed a ride.
Sorry just some random thoughts!!
Sorry just some random thoughts!!
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Am I imagining that the brought in a similar rule for endurance?
Ah thanks steerpike, you answered while I was typing, clever!
Ah thanks steerpike, you answered while I was typing, clever!
Velcrobum
Well-Known Member
BHA has a mechanism called Racewise for people to raise issues. https://www.britishhorseracing.com/about/contact-bha/
tristar
Well-Known Member
i think no one has any one answer, as i am not a vet i feel unqualified to suggest further pre race tests, its up to the ones that conduct these examinations to decide where the holes are, but a horse is more than bones, tendons, heart and although a lot of injuries are leg and back ultimately could they be repercussions of failure from other body systems resulting in incoordination
then there is the element of speed, the competence of the jockeys, watching the last three fences of some of the races is uncomfortable watching, tired horses, jockeys pushing for more effort and speed.
the surface of the track used for racing surely contributes one way or another for good or bad, wet or dry, deep or good going, if the curragh can spend 27 million on a new grandstand how about money to construct suitable surfaces for jump racing, how many tracks could be surfaced for that sort of money, not to mention all the other money involved, breeding, buying horses, all the other money spent getting the horse to track.
you could say a range of obvious improvements, advances could be tried.
its only trying something different the any improvements will be seen.
some years ago three horses died at one badminton, it was very wet i believe, if you are going to compete in mud but train on decent surfaces what sense does that make, the water was sloshing around well in some of the races recently!
sorry not much help!
Elf On A Shelf
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Not all surfaces are the same though. We train on woodchip gallops that ride pretty much the same as the going of the racecourses year round. In summer when it is dry it rides fast. In winter the wetter it gets the deeper it rides. So no whilst not grass it does vary depending on conditions. A lot of yards also have deep sand round gallops. Again these ride more to ground conditions in winter. When dry they actually ride soft so great for stamina work as you aren't going fast round them. When wet they ride more like sloppy ground. Most use builders sand for these which is not like beach sand, it doesn't solidify when wet. You would also be surprised at just how many yards have grass gallops or fields. Many schooling grounds are on turf too.
Crazy_cat_lady
Well-Known Member
Just looked and it looks like all 3 are intended runners...
humblepie
Well-Known Member
It is worth looking at the horse welfare board work on the BHA website as lots of info on what is done and projects ongoing.
Velcrobum
Well-Known Member
I gave all of you a link to report concerns direct to BHA via Racewise https://www.britishhorseracing.com/about/contact-bha/
There is a pathway to raise concerns which I have gone down.........................
There is a pathway to raise concerns which I have gone down.........................
Maddie Moo
Well-Known Member
All 3 are still in today, I was wondering if they might withdraw one but apparently not!
Crazy_cat_lady
Well-Known Member
Yep! We also have DinDin, race 22 since April, appearing in the race prior! He's at least been rested since November...
All 4 have blinkers on
Wonder how they will fare
Maddie Moo
Well-Known Member
Look who is going through the Doncaster HIT/PTP sale next week…
ETA: It looks like D’jango has been withdrawn from the sale. According to RP, he is owned by the David Pipe Racing Club now. Dindin and Abayu du Mathan were also due to go through the sale but have been withdrawn.
ETA: It looks like D’jango has been withdrawn from the sale. According to RP, he is owned by the David Pipe Racing Club now. Dindin and Abayu du Mathan were also due to go through the sale but have been withdrawn.
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Elf On A Shelf
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Red Happy was bought by the Bewley's for 30k. He won at Kelso the other day on his first start for them. This horse has landed on his feet going to that yard. They don't over run their horses, they are very ground conscious and would rather go home than risk the horse. He will be happy there.