The worst has happened.

[scatty_mare]

My mum and dad's dog is a 6 year old bsd x lab (they think) who they rescued 2 years ago. She had no training at all, and is very, very independent, having spent the first 4 years of her life roaming free and ruling her owner.
She has never shown the slightest sign of agression towards people, and is fine with other dogs (if anything disinterested in them, perhaps because she has spent so much time by herself?) so they took her on without too many qualms, considering she is such a big, strong dog.
The difficult part to manage is her very strong prey drive, and also her tendency to roam. Her recall is also 'selective'. My parents live in a rural location, surrounded by farms and fields, which at the moment are full of sheep. They have very high, secure fencing around the perimeter of their garden and do not let the dog out unsupervised. Although she can't get out, they are totally paranoid about it, after all she is clever and you never know when she might find a way - and it would only take someone leaving the gate open a fraction and she'd be off. When people are with her she tends to stick around.
On Tuesday the worst happened and she managed to get out, unnoticed. She went across the road and killed 2 sheep.

My parents are distraught. They rang the farmer immediately, are obviously paying all costs incurred and have agreed to everything the farmer wants, including euthanasia of the dog.

She is booked in for 5.30pm today.

Is there anything I can do to change the farmer's mind? My parents have signed an agreement in the presence of a policeman stating that she will be destroyed within 7 days of the attack.

 

[jsr]

Contact Jim Greenwood (website on google) now. There is absolutely no need for the dog to be PTS, believe me! He trained my dog after he killed 2 sheep and I can now (don't but could) walk him off lead through sheep. He previously would have killed anything that moved, including my parent chickens, just last weekend he spent the afternoon at my parents house unsupervised with their chickens running around the garden. The guy works miracles and is worth a try..for the dogs sake at least.

Edited to add, obviously if it's too far for Jim to travel then I'm sure he'll know a working dog trainer who will be able to help.

 

[AmyMay]

including euthanasia of the dog.

Appalling!

 

[ScattyBella]

Contact Jim Greenwood (website on google) now. There is absolutely no need for the dog to be PTS, believe me! He trained my dog after he killed 2 sheep and I can now (don't but could) walk him off lead through sheep. He previously would have killed anything that moved, including my parent chickens, just last weekend he spent the afternoon at my parents house unsupervised with their chickens running around the garden. The guy works miracles and is worth a try..for the dogs sake at least.

^^^ this. My husband refused to PTS a dog that had attacked a ewe because the sheep owner said that it had to be killed. The dog owners were distraught and had been told that once a dog attacks a sheep they will attack people

Dogs can be trained again to be passive with livestock. My father was a farmer and was one of the only farmers around who would keep a collie after it began nipping. He would spend months training it to not go for them. It is possible. Tell your parents to reimburse the farmer but that is as far as their obligation goes.

 

[lexiedhb]

Why would they sign an agreement like that? Surely that is the absolute last resort, after all training has failed?

 

[SplashofSoy]

I am not surprised that the farmer has demand the dog be put dow, the farmer wants to protect his livestock and the dog is a real threat as not many people would be as pro active as to put the effort into to retrain the dog. If he had caught the dog in the act and was armed it would have been shot on sight. I know of a couple of dogs who have been shot and killed by farmers as they have attacked sheep.

I hope you can change his mind and save the dog with the suggestions above.

 

[Sandstone1]

I can understand why the farmer wants the dog pts but I dont think he can insist on it for a first offence as it were. I would get advice before having the dog put down. All costs to the farmer must be paid but take advice on the legal side of having the dog put down.

 

[scatty_mare]

Thanks for the support. I will give Jim Greenwood a call now. The dog is not beyond help and none of us are under any kind of impression that killing a sheep will lead to agression!
I think we were all in shock and just numbly accepted what was said. I have been awake all night fantasising about how we can dye her a different colour and she can come and live with me... But it's very encouraging to hear that it is not necessarily the end. My dad says he feels like a child molester and so ashamed for being so irresponsible. It's awful. Apparently one of the sheep was blind and a pet.

 

[AmyMay]

I hope you can change his mind and save the dog with the suggestions above.

It's not a matter of changing the farmers mind - he can't insist upon the dog being destroyed, merley request it.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Legally, the farmer has no right to insist, but your parents appear to have given it to him by signing an agreement. In court, this would not stand up, I think, but it was a very unfortunate act of theirs.

I would let them know that legally, they are not bound to abide by their written agreement. Could they promise to use an electric deterrent instead? I saw one in America that stopped the dog from getting onto the guest area of a B&B-no idea how it works.

 

[jsr]

Thanks for the support. I will give Jim Greenwood a call now. The dog is not beyond help and none of us are under any kind of impression that killing a sheep will lead to agression!
I think we were all in shock and just numbly accepted what was said. I have been awake all night fantasising about how we can dye her a different colour and she can come and live with me... But it's very encouraging to hear that it is not necessarily the end. My dad says he feels like a child molester and so ashamed for being so irresponsible. It's awful. Apparently one of the sheep was blind and a pet.

I totally understand how you all feel, I was utterly horrified when Sidney killed the sheep, he was my 'good' dog, always been perfectly behaved and the worst bit was he's the only one of my pack I've had since 8 weeks old so I know he's had a safe happy secure life unlike the rest of my rescues!!! He literally went into a red mist and it took me nearly an hour to catch him after the attack! The farmer didn't actually care much but I was beside myself with grief, I thought it was the end for Sidney!!

Jim was a godsend, he literally sorted him out within minutes!! He has an uncanny ability to read dogs and can see which form of training will work. Obviously different methods work with different dogs and most likely it won't be a quick fix as I was lucky enough to have but in my opinion he's the only person I'd trust to help with anything of this nature again.

 

[EAST KENT]

Fact of life in the farming areas, dog kills sheep/ dog either gets shot on the job or is PTS later by owner.Sad,but that is the facts in the countryside. Not a case of "dog allowed one kill", it is`nt,and it will do it again ,believe me.

 

[ThePinkPony]

I asked OH and he said legally the farmer cant request your parents to euthanise their dog.
If they pay him for the sheep then really thats as far as it goes. BUT trust me, he will shoot it next time its near his livestock. Dont make an enemy of him but dont kill your dog either.

it was a big fail to read that they had signed an agreement, but hindsight is a wonderful thing

 

[AmyMay]

Fact of life in the farming areas, dog kills sheep/ dog either gets shot on the job or is PTS later by owner.Sad,but that is the facts in the countryside. Not a case of "dog allowed one kill", it is`nt,and it will do it again ,believe me.

So what is your point exactly - that this dog should be destroyed because of the carelesness of the owners???

 

[Red30563]

What a dreadful situation for all concerned. I hope you can get it resolved, Scatty Mare, and the dog gets a reprieve. But I hope this is a wake-up call for you parents that their dog needs some training (not just with regards to sheep.)

 

[bonny]

I'm afraid that I agree with East Kent, your parents sound as if they suspected this would happen if the dog got out and the same thing would probably happen again if he escaped again. Not much of a life anyway if they live in a rural area, for the dog being kept prisoner or for your parents having to be parnoid all the time ....would it be an option for the dog to be rehomed to a built up area, where there is no livestock around ?

 

[jsr]

Fact of life in the farming areas, dog kills sheep/ dog either gets shot on the job or is PTS later by owner.Sad,but that is the facts in the countryside. Not a case of "dog allowed one kill", it is`nt,and it will do it again ,believe me.

Really?? I wish you were close enough to come walk with my sheep killer and see how he can walk within a foot of sheep and lambs without even looking at them. It's not a 'fact of life' in my rural area. Majority of the farming community round here don't wander around with guns at hand constantly checking their stock..lucky if they get checked once a week actually and they certainly don't waste time following legal avenues if a dog is actually caught, they can't afford to.

AND actually the only reason my dog killed in the first place was because the idiot farmer had despite numberous warnings again allowed his stock on to my friends private fields and we were walking on there with a large pack of dogs and discovered too late that the farmers fences were not secure and his stock had broken through. It could have been alot worse if the majority of the pack didn't recall instantly, unfortunately my young dog was encouraged by an older already known stock un-friendly dog to chase. So maybe in hindsight I should of asked the farmer to recompense my expenses for having to retrain a previously good dog because he allowed his stock to roam????

 

[AmyMay]

Not much of a life anyway if they live in a rural area, for the dog being kept prisoner

No dog should be allowed to roam - so can't understand what point you are making here....

 

[2Greys]

What a shame, perhaps your parents could seek some legal advice about whether the agreement they signed is valid. Maybe the farmer would agree to the dog to be rehomed into an area with no livestock instead of PTS?

 

[bonny]

No dog should be allowed to roam - so can't understand what point you are making here....

I live on a farm, 6 houses here, we all have dogs. There are no fences round anyone's garden and all the dogs just wander outside. I've been here years and no one's dog has ever chased sheep or any other animals.
I would never consider having a dog that I couldn't keep like that, my dog is just now lying outside in the sun, she has never wandered off and I trust her 100% not to do so as does every one else here. A dog never allowed to be a free dog is a prisoner in my opinion which is what I meant be my comment.

 

[ThePinkPony]

Fact of life in the farming areas, dog kills sheep/ dog either gets shot on the job or is PTS later by owner.Sad,but that is the facts in the countryside. Not a case of "dog allowed one kill", it is`nt,and it will do it again ,believe me.

WOW.. I've lived in the rural countryside all my life and never heard that saying.

I live in the proper sticks now and as against dogs being uncontrolled around livestock as i am, sometimes accidents happen and i have never heard of a farmer insisting on a dog being PTS, demanding compensation to the value of the livestock lost yes, definitely, but never ''you need to kill that dog''. After all, dogs have basic instincts and a basic canine instinct is chase and kill.

For most people just the trauma of seeing a sheep die, and the threat of their pooch tasting lead if there is a next time is enough.

Though you do get the odd ''I REFUSE TO BELIEVE IT IS LEGAL FOR YOU TO SHOOT MY DOG IF IT CHASES YOUR SHEEP/PHEASANTS''... They usually put their dog on a lead when you challenge them with ''go on then, by all means if you think it can outrun a bullet''

 

[AmyMay]

I live on a farm, 6 houses here, we all have dogs. There are no fences round anyone's garden and all the dogs just wander outside. I've been here years and no one's dog has ever chased sheep or any other animals.
I would never consider having a dog that I couldn't keep like that, my dog is just now lying outside in the sun, she has never wandered off and I trust her 100% not to do so as does every one else here. A dog never allowed to be a free dog is a prisoner in my opinion which is what I meant be my comment.

But the owners of this dog don't live on a farm, so have no issue in trusing it with livestock (or not). It has freedom - within the confines (rightly so) of it's not so secure garden.

The owners here are entirely negligent - not the dog.

 

[AmyMay]

WOW.. I've lived in the rural countryside all my life and never heard that saying.

Nor me.......................

 

[jsr]

But the owners of this dog don't live on a farm, so have no issue in trusing it with livestock (or not). It has freedom - within the confines (rightly so) of it's not so secure garden.

The owners here are entirely negligent - not the dog.

Absolutely! If the fact that dogs who are not allowed to roam freely is the issue then I guess I better get rid of mine then? They go for off lead walks everyday but they certainly don't have a garden without boundries, I'm pretty sure the farmer who's land boundries my house would take issue if I allowed that? And I would never ever allow any dog that sort of freedom, no matter how much I trusted them.

Oh and I'm guessing my dogs would be laying out in the sun right now but it's raining..difference is they are in a secure garden, so not exactly restricted but certainly perfectly happy and safe.

 

[bonny]

But the owners of this dog don't live on a farm, so have no issue in trusing it with livestock (or not). It has freedom - within the confines (rightly so) of it's not so secure garden.

The owners here are entirely negligent - not the dog.

They live in a rural area surrounded by sheep though .....surely they would spend the rest of the dog's life being paranoid about it happening again. Not much of an existance as far as I can see. Would the dog not be better off living in a town ?

 

[AmyMay]

They live in a rural area surrounded by sheep though .....surely they would spend the rest of the dog's life being paranoid about it happening again. Not much of an existance as far as I can see. Would the dog not be better off living in a town ?

I can't think for one minute that anyone (or perhas the majority) of people living in a rural area that do not own livestock give it a moments thought. After all we are required to have our animals on a lead around livestock.

You live on a farm - your dogs are free to roam it. I live in a house my dog would be free to roam my garden.

I'm assuming you don't allow your dogs to roam on the roads - the same applies for me.....

The only issue here is that the owners didn't secure their property to prevent their dog from roaming. Just as you secure your property to prevent your livestock from roaming.....................

And whilst I agree that they are perhaps not the right owners for this dog - certainly its destruction is totally unwarranted.

 

[ThePinkPony]

I live on a farm, 6 houses here, we all have dogs. There are no fences round anyone's garden and all the dogs just wander outside. I've been here years and no one's dog has ever chased sheep or any other animals.
I would never consider having a dog that I couldn't keep like that, my dog is just now lying outside in the sun, she has never wandered off and I trust her 100% not to do so as does every one else here. A dog never allowed to be a free dog is a prisoner in my opinion which is what I meant be my comment.

Oh for gods sake... When will people realise that 99.9% or the time ITS NOT YOUR DOG YOU HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT and even if it isnt A DOG IS STILL UNPREDICTABLE AND HAS THE CAPACITY TO TURN AT ANY MINUTE!!! if i were you bonny i would hope that one day a really annoying little kid doesnt push your dog a bit too far

i personally think thats the biggest load of BS going bonny. even in the wild with wolf behavious they only roam because they have to to source food. if you chuck a deer carcass at a pack of wolves every day they will seldon ''roam'' futher than a few hundred yards.

 

[ThePinkPony]

They live in a rural area surrounded by sheep though .....surely they would spend the rest of the dog's life being paranoid about it happening again. Not much of an existance as far as I can see. Would the dog not be better off living in a town ?

I live in ruralest rural. I have 9 dogs... do they roam free...NO... because i have more than ten braincells and a dose of common sense.

If you think that by definition owning a dog is not watching it, letting it roam an open space with no boundaries and no protection and trusting it to do the right thing, then you should have dogs because quite frankly it is the owners like you that end up causing the problem.

you do realise a butt from a broody ewe could kill a dog if it catches it right... and it may not need any provocation as sheep can be funny things.

 

[Orangehorse]

If they are very fond of the dog I don't see why it should be PTS. We don't own sheep, but have some here over the winter sometimes.

Once a dog was being walked and got away from its handler and chased and killed sheep.
The owner (the son in law of the handler) was quite happy to have the dog PTS but didn't want to pay for the damage to the sheep - so the flock owner took him to court and won. I found that a bit strange.

A few years later 2 dogs went missing, the owners were going around putting posters up. When asked if they were OK with sheep they replied that they had sheep next to their garden and the dogs didn't take any notice of them at all. A day or two later my husband and son found the dogs attacking the flock of sheep in our field, killing a couple and severely tramautising the others. The owner of the dogs didn't have them PTS, but had to pay £1,000s in compensation, it came to a lot more than the insurance company would pay. The dogs are still alive, I seem them being walked they are free to roam in their own garden and yes, there are still sheep in the fields next door to the house, which I guess they regard as "their sheep" to be guarded.

 

[ThePinkPony]

If they are very fond of the dog I don't see why it should be PTS. We don't own sheep, but have some here over the winter sometimes.

Once a dog was being walked and got away from its handler and chased and killed sheep.
The owner (the son in law of the handler) was quite happy to have the dog PTS but didn't want to pay for the damage to the sheep - so the flock owner took him to court and won. I found that a bit strange.

A few years later 2 dogs went missing, the owners were going around putting posters up. When asked if they were OK with sheep they replied that they had sheep next to their garden and the dogs didn't take any notice of them at all. A day or two later my husband and son found the dogs attacking the flock of sheep in our field, killing a couple and severely tramautising the others. The owner of the dogs didn't have them PTS, but had to pay £1,000s in compensation, it came to a lot more than the insurance company would pay. The dogs are still alive, I seem them being walked they are free to roam in their own garden and yes, there are still sheep in the fields next door to the house, which I guess they regard as "their sheep" to be guarded.

Oh no! poor flock. I think there isnt much education in the countryside. Me and OH pulled up a woman once whose dog was chasing the sheep heavily in lamb and she didnt have a clue that something like that could cause the ewes to miscarry, and the costs then would bankrupt her. She was absolutely ignorant to the damage she could be causing.