the WRONG way to neuter dogs and cats...

labruyere

labruyere

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the att article
yet again can only add fuel to the debate that the RSPCA (and SOME other rescue organisations)
have totally lost the plot...

the article also gives good information and sensible advice on when
(at what age) neutering should be done

http://www.doglistener.co.uk/neutering/rspca.shtml

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:confused: I have my guys done at 6 months and that is because I follow my vets advice.

I only wait until then because they are better able to cope with the anaesthetic at that age.They all happily cock their legs and don't appear to suffer any ill affects.
 
Whilst in my personal opinion I believe that to be too young if it is a vet or vets that are recommending it and the rcvs have not taken action or are against it, surely it is a morale and not a welfare question. I've had my boy done at 6 months and my vets were happy with this.
 
I've heard advice, given by vets (in the main small animal vets), which isn't just wrong, it's been staggeringly wrong. I'm not saying that we should ignore all veterinary advice, but I certainly think that we should consider the facts before we blindly follow.

If the report is correct, which would surprise me, there would most certainly be a welfare issue, with carrying out needless mutilation of a puppy so young, but in the case of dog pups, I'd be interested to hear if they can even find their testes, at 6 weeks.

Alec.
 
Well done for posting OP and I have posted the link to my Facebook page.

I have never neutered my dogs although we have spayed our bitches at 2 years. This subject of early(puppy IMO)is a pet hate of mine as I feel it's as cruel and barbaric, maybe more so than starving the poor animal. The dogs end up look like freaks with their long legs and puppy faces, they do get picked on other dogs too.

I also don't agree with vets that say you mustn't take your puppy out of the house pre final jabs!? They have protection after the first jab, and hey, what about essenial socialisation? But then hats another thread.
 
I would agree with Alec that you might struggle to find the testes on a 6 week old pup. I have nothing against neutering but would always wait until the dog is fully grown. Having said that my daughter worked abroad for a foreign animal welfare society and they did neuter the stray puppies very young, not sure exactly what age but I know she was surprised. However given how many strays there were it probably did make sense.
On the different topic of taking pups out before fully vaccinated, I wouldn't do this, seen too many animals lost for parvo etc. It is possible to socialise pups prior to vaccination, Freya went everywhere as an 8/9 week old pup, I just carried her. Not good for my arms or back but at least she saw the sights.:p
 
The flip of this is to consider that the UK is at crisis point with too many cats and dogs and horses unwanted and not enough homes willing to rehome them from the rescues, hence the rescues being over full, and even if another 100 rehoming centres were built across the country they could be filled probably within the week and we'd be no further on!. At least early neutering secures that that animal cannot add to this problem. I'm not saying it's right but worth a consideration. I've never seen early neutering resulting in permanent puppy looking? or odd conformation? or being picked on??? But then I've only seen neutering at 5 months earliest.
 
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Another thought to ponder is why is it alright to castrate a horse before it is grown, but not a dog? surely by doing this you are inhibiting it's natural behaviour too? Go on the breeding section and ask about typical castration age of colts, and I'll bet you're talking under 6 months usually, when a horse doesn't stop growing until it's 8??

n.b I'm not saying I agree with the article at all, just throwing food for thought out there is all.
 
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competitiondiva said:
Another thought to ponder is why is it alright to castrate a horse before it is grown, but not a dog? surely by doing this you are inhibiting it's natural behaviour too? Go on the breeding section and ask about typical castration age of colts, and I'll bet you're talking under 6 months usually, when a horse doesn't stop growing until it's 8??

n.b I'm not saying I agree with the article at all, just throwing food for thought out there is all.
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I get what you're saying, and it's an interesting argument. I think the big difference here though is about safety. Traditionally, colts are castrated before they reach maturity, before they are stallions, predominantly to make them easier to handle and break in. If they are not safe to handle, and unbroken, we cannot ride them, and therefore there would be a surfeit of unrideable horses who would be suffering through poor husbandry. I had a dutch warmblood who was cut late, he was effectively a stallion, and he was a nightmare when the mares came into season. He would gallop flat out through the electric fencing to get to them, whereupon he would dash round them all with his full erection waiving in the breeze looking very proud of himself!! With horses therefore, it is considered best practice to castrate early. However, dogs are a completely different species from horses, they are mostly kept as pets and do not have to "earn their keep" (with the exception of working dogs of course). If left entire, they are still perfectly safe, perfectly trainable and can still be wonderful pets. My boy Tai is entire, and is a delightful dog in every respect. Therefore, IMO it is totally unacceptable to castrate a young male pup until he is at least 6 months, and even that I consider a little young. With a female, I would not be happy to spay until at least one season has occurred.

I personally do not castrate my boys, I prefer to leave them entire unless indicated medically - eg cryptorchidism or monorchidism, or other problems.
 
Nikki J said:
I get what you're saying, and it's an interesting argument. I think the big difference here though is about safety. Traditionally, colts are castrated before they reach maturity, before they are stallions, predominantly to make them easier to handle and break in. If they are not safe to handle, and unbroken, we cannot ride them, and therefore there would be a surfeit of unrideable horses who would be suffering through poor husbandry. I had a dutch warmblood who was cut late, he was effectively a stallion, and he was a nightmare when the mares came into season. He would gallop flat out through the electric fencing to get to them, whereupon he would dash round them all with his full erection waiving in the breeze looking very proud of himself!! With horses therefore, it is considered best practice to castrate early. However, dogs are a completely different species from horses, they are mostly kept as pets and do not have to "earn their keep" (with the exception of working dogs of course). If left entire, they are still perfectly safe, perfectly trainable and can still be wonderful pets. My boy Tai is entire, and is a delightful dog in every respect. Therefore, IMO it is totally unacceptable to castrate a young male pup until he is at least 6 months, and even that I consider a little young. With a female, I would not be happy to spay until at least one season has occurred.
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I do agree, but in saying this and on reflection of what the article claims then are we not in breach of the 5 needs in castrating colts too early? whether that's for our safety and it's future as a working horse or not? Again food for thought? (Please I am not advocating we do not castrate colts, we have too many unwanted equines now, so I'm the opposite! I just wanted to put what the article claims and accuses the RSPCA vet of in other terms for us to debate, explore)

Also I've seen entire male dogs never cock their leg, and i've seen neutered dominant bitches cock their legs, so I wouldn't take that behaviour as read.
 
Elsbells said:
I also don't agree with vets that say you mustn't take your puppy out of the house pre final jabs!? They have protection after the first jab, and hey, what about essenial socialisation? But then hats another thread.
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Il bite on that one :P
Puppies are not considered to be fully covered from the first jab in the initial booster set, as there is a risk of the maternal antibodies interfering with the vaccine and leaving them completely unprotected once the maternal influences wanes. Thats the reason its a 2 time injection course and third injection is sometimes advised in some breed like the rottweiler where maternal antibodies are an issue.....having seen pups with parvo having only had the first injection and then being let loose I would highly advise against bringing a young pup out and about until they are fully covered...ie a week after the second vaccine. Particularly in areas where there is a lot of dog walking as many dogs are not vaccinated after their initial boosters.

To say dont bring them out of the house is going a bit far though...I would be happy enough to carry a pup around to socialise them and introduce them to dogs I knew were vaccinated....but letting them loose to go play in a dog park,or out on that popular dog walking section IMO just isn't worth the risk.

Anyhow back to the topic at hand...
The early neutering is commonly done in the USA in shelter environments....It was started for a number of reasons the main one being that the stray dog population control issue was out of hand and also even with vouchers they discovered people were not returning and neutering their shelter adopted pets less than 40 percent did so and so by keeping entire animals they were potentially adding to the population issues.

Personally I think it is too young to neuter a pup and would consider putting more effort into enforcing the adoption contracts and teaching adopters about the benifits of neutering instead. I would also be very reluctant to do it particularly in certain breeds due to the urinary incontinence risk.
However that said an experienced surgeon would have an operation like that done exceptionally quickly. At that age there would be a less fat to obscure the organs and a smaller blood supply to the reproductive organs as well with reduces a lot of the risk. They are still doing studies on the long term effects of such early neutering in the US time will tell the long term impact it has been preformed for almost 25 years already.
So far they have discovered its a shorter operation, there are less complications in the surgery and that recovery times are shorter. It hasn't being linked to an issue with closure of the growth plates as was initially feared, though the long bones are longer in an early neutered animal.

You can usually find the testes quite easily at 6 weeks....part of the puppy exam would be checking for cryptorcidism(only one testes present) at that age...Once they are present in the correct area size is not a hugh issue I have neutered male kittens at around 3months without a problem and they have small little testes.
 
The bigger picture is this country is a mess (we are brimming with rescue) and it is fact that pound dogs are taken frequently in order to be (bred) from as the pounds dont enforce neuter! they let the dogs go and encourage them/ner owner with a (voucher) and they are rarely used. I can openly see people breeding from their pound dogs (disgusting).
We have been asked an many occasion "why we neuter"? and been asked if a certain dog is "done or not" for the purpose of adopting it to "breed":confused:
Hell........a radio presenter asked us why we don't breed in order to fund the rescue:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: WTF

We would never neuter a dog at 6 weeks, but even sadder we wont rehome puppies, so they remain with us till neuter, whereby we will neuter small to medium breeds from 6 months (I have no issue) with this and will neuter my own at this age, large breeds over a year (once again like all my arguments) I can make up my own mind and use comparisons, we are dealing with hundreds of dogs, not a few pets over the years! but like my comparisons everyone one is entitled to their own and will make their comparisons. Funnily enough my youngest neuter lived the longest (17 yrs) for a whippet x grey, more grey size, I got her when I was a kid from the RSPCA and she was done at months, never seen a vet in her life.

Although i dont agree with the 6 week neuter, I can TOTALLY see why? trust is earned and once its broken you learn a hard lesson (we have) we had someone refused to neuter a labrador (he said it was a lovely specimen) and he may like to breed:mad:. (I removed the dog);) so he lost the dog in the end through his pig headedness and arrogance and breaking this contract. Not the 1st to do this to us and here is why we now wont rehome a puppy anymore, we wait for neuter. (very rarely will we let a baby puppy go) only to people we know or who may have adopted from us before.
Another person is taking a rescue to court or the other way round as he wants his dog left entire (even though he signed a contract)......I would remove the dog, be it by hand over (or me taking it) simples!!!

The last pups we rehomed was the cocker spaniel litter (winston from hho) included:D and each and everyone was returned:), had they not been I would have removed each and everyone.
 
I too would never risk letting a pup hit the floor or mix with other dogs with just a 1st vax and indeed most vets will say "keep in your arms" until a week after 2nd vax.
I have to admit I have seen mass over growth in large breeds neutered at 6 months.
the most shocking being a rottie, a ridge back and an akita (and Im talking huge) like:eek: huge and have been able to compare their fully grown litter mates. I definately belive in the over growth of neutering large breeds to early. (again just my own observations) the rottie was pts age 3 with bone cancer.
 
I was shocked to hear that a neighbour's now 9 month old Labradoodle had been castatred at 6 weeks. The puppy cost her £1600!!!! I wondered if this was so inflated partly due to the cost of the op. The vets had said this was now normal procedure.....
 
Amos said:
I was shocked to hear that a neighbour's now 9 month old Labradoodle had been castatred at 6 weeks. The puppy cost her £1600!!!! I wondered if this was so inflated partly due to the cost of the op. The vets had said this was now normal procedure.....
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No, that is done to stop the dog being bred from so the breeder can keep selling her (rare) mongrels for top dollar ;) (bigger fool the buyer) if a large bred doodle i.e standard to a lab then she could have paid a costly price for future health issues there.
She prob could have gotten a back street bred doodle for a fraction of the cost and neutered when she likes and had less but no doubt some issues.
 
Yes I appreciate that is why the breeder did it, however, it was just the point that her vet (not the same as breeders) said it was standard practice. As to paying that sort of money, well imho totally stupid - but each to their own...
 
My whippet pup has got a retained testicle, obviously it might still drop but I've been told by the vet to neuter at 6 months. Is this appropriate due to the one ball issue? I have been reading up on early neuter and would wait till he's over a year if possible though he will be done as I don't want to risk puppies!
 
Amos said:
I was shocked to hear that a neighbour's now 9 month old Labradoodle had been castatred at 6 weeks. The puppy cost her £1600!!!! I wondered if this was so inflated partly due to the cost of the op. The vets had said this was now normal procedure.....
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It's entirely possible, that the vets are talking bol-locks. ;)

Alec.
 
Oscar said:
And yet Geldings appear to suffer no adverse side effects from early castration. Most male horses are castrated well before they are physically mature.
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Different type of mammal though - horses are herbivores, flight animals, whereas dogs are hunters and mainly carniverous. I agree entirely that geldings seem to suffer no adverse side effects from early castration, just the opposite. I think though because dogs are not a prey animal, but a hunter, this may be why we don't routinely castrate until the dog is sexually mature. Do foals testicles descend from the scrotum in a similar way to puppies? Or are they born with their gonads down as it were?
 
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