There is hope!

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Heelfirst

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There is hope:
Last year I was asked to take a look at this lovely animal, Poppy was very lame and having had 18 months of surgical farriery with no favourable results the owner was devastated and couldn’t see Poppy getting back any sort of life.
Gaynor Judge of Rook farm and myself agreed that the owner had suffered enough both emotionally
and financially, so we took Poppy on as a project, and boy has she paid us back!
So I could not resist putting up this picture for all owners who are thinking that there is no hope.
And to all owners, vets, farriers ect who have doubts about non conventional methods of treatment I will only say this. There is room for us all, but we no longer stand in the corner.

https://www.facebook.com/4953792004...217/861925053836812/?type=1&notif_t=photo_tag
 
Heelfirst said:
There is hope:
Last year I was asked to take a look at this lovely animal, Poppy was very lame and having had 18 months of surgical farriery with no favourable results the owner was devastated and couldn’t see Poppy getting back any sort of life.
Gaynor Judge of Rook farm and myself agreed that the owner had suffered enough both emotionally
and financially, so we took Poppy on as a project, and boy has she paid us back!
So I could not resist putting up this picture for all owners who are thinking that there is no hope.
And to all owners, vets, farriers ect who have doubts about non conventional methods of treatment I will only say this. There is room for us all, but we no longer stand in the corner.

https://www.facebook.com/4953792004...944217/861925053836812/?type=1¬if_t=photo_tag
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lovely story but cannot get the link to work and would be interested to see foot pics.

hopefully you were able to explain the successful approach to the vet and surgical farrier and they will have learnt loads to help the next ones.
 
I can't see the photo. Boo hoo! No more "standing in corners", I'm up for that! Only closed minds and tradition are stopping things moving forward at a much faster rate.

What were Poppy's problems?
 
Fabulous news! Look forward to seeing pics too. You pointed me in the right direction about a year ago too Heelfirst- I thank you.
 
Sorry about the pic.
I don’t know if Poppy is up on the Rook farm website, I know they are having a new site built so there may be a problem. I will try and follow it up
Will also try and get some pics up of the feet.
The main problem was a massive imbalance due to a contracted heel this was causing problems to the navicular bursa, and subsequently the Navicular joint.
 
Heelfirst said:
Sorry about the pic.
I don’t know if Poppy is up on the Rook farm website, I know they are having a new site built so there may be a problem. I will try and follow it up
Will also try and get some pics up of the feet.
The main problem was a massive imbalance due to a contracted heel this was causing problems to the navicular bursa, and subsequently the Navicular joint.
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if you go onto FB, search under Rook Farm their FB page comes up and there is mention of Poppy (and you)
haven't look at them in detail yet but they may we what you want
Pat
 
Great news HF

I am so frustrated about how slowly a lot of vets and farriers are to understand what has been discovered about curing foot problems in horses by removing medical and shoeing intervention.

I can hardly believe, after the number of horses you, others, and Rockley have resolved that vets and farriers called it a day on, that there are any left. But there's another new thread today by Sheep saying her vet thought she was mad to remove the wedges from her horse. She can hardly contain her excitement at the angle change that she is seeing.

Is there anything more we can do to get the message through to the two professions who have their heads stuck in the sand??
 
cptrayes said:
Great news HF

I am so frustrated about how slowly a lot of vets and farriers are to understand what has been discovered about curing foot problems in horses by removing medical and shoeing intervention.

I can hardly believe, after the number of horses you, others, and Rockley have resolved that vets and farriers called it a day on, that there are any left. But there's another new thread today by Sheep saying her vet thought she was mad to remove the wedges from her horse. She can hardly contain her excitement at the angle change that she is seeing.

Is there anything more we can do to get the message through to the two professions who have their heads stuck in the sand??
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This this this!

I never thought I would be so ecstatic about a pair of hooves, but here I am, thrilled to bits - conventional methods just did not work for my boy. I know they may work for some but mine was lame again within about 8 weeks of the initial treatment.

At that point I thought I would probably retire him. Since shoeing did sod all for him anyway, I decided, no harm in trying shoes off. Ultimately in the back of my mind were all these success stories from the likes of Rockley farm etc. That was what I hoped to replicate. But to be perfectly honest I justified it to farrier etc by saying he was probably going to be retired, so why shoe him.

Have built it up slowly and since shoes came off have now told farrier horse is back in work. Next time he is out I will show him my rosette from winning a ridden showing class at the weekend past ;) luckily my farrier doesn't like to work without owner present so I will be very pernickety in what bits he touches and the bits that are off limits! He is quite conservative with his trimming though so I think we will be just fine :) I reckon he will be pretty interested to see the changes too.

It's so fantastic that something so damn simple and natural is giving these horses a new life. I would absolutely love to re xray my boy's feet in another 6 months time and see what's happening inside there now.......

I am becoming a hoof bore! :D

A forward thinking vet could actually be on to something quite lucrative if they got themselves a decent hoof rehab setup!
 
For my part I can only carry the word to those I meet in my professional role or at talks.
I personally find that when working with farriers and students there is as much a problem due to the conflicts in character as there are in the differences in treatment approach.
When Greatcombe Clinic was at it’s busiest I was using surgical shoes 4/5 times a day, I still am able to sleep at night due to the results we achieved, I just know now that I need not have bothered with nailing on my treatment when the animal had a method of it’s own.
Vets are another matter: they have 3 main problems as far as I see it:
1) They make very little money out of barefoot per se
2) They do not want to be in, or cause conflict with the farriery profession
3) They do not wish to be seen to be ‘outside the box’ by their own profession

The complaint I hear most from both professions is, every Tom, Dick, & Harry is trimming now, and this is something we have to deal with.
 
Heelfirst said:
For my part I can only carry the word to those I meet in my professional role or at talks.
I personally find that when working with farriers and students there is as much a problem due to the conflicts in character as there are in the differences in treatment approach.
When Greatcombe Clinic was at it’s busiest I was using surgical shoes 4/5 times a day, I still am able to sleep at night due to the results we achieved, I just know now that I need not have bothered with nailing on my treatment when the animal had a method of it’s own.
Vets are another matter: they have 3 main problems as far as I see it:
1) They make very little money out of barefoot per se
2) They do not want to be in, or cause conflict with the farriery profession
3) They do not wish to be seen to be ‘outside the box’ by their own profession

The complaint I hear most from both professions is, every Tom, Dick, & Harry is trimming now, and this is something we have to deal with.
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I guess this just shows how many factors there are to consider.. hopefully though, as more people begin to understand the benefits, it will gain a bit more momentum.

Is there any scientific research going into the benefits? I suppose not, as I guess the majority is funded by drugs companies? I think sometimes people feel they need scientific proof before they can be convinced to give things a go.

It is such an interesting topic.
 
sadly I think that once a horse has navicular or laminitis the "cash register" starts rolling for both vets and farriers. Sadly vets are in business to make a profit. A navicular horse could be worth a lot of money to the vet profession.

Why would anyone want to fund research? Take the shoes off, deal with the thrush, give it a moderate trim (or not) get it walking, correct the diet if necessary and buy a pair of boots if you need them. Who is going to make money from it?


Every "Tom Dick and Harry" only ended up trimming as they couldn't get what they wanted from the vet and farriery professions. They educated themselves and found that what the professions were advising wasn't in fact very good.

Is the complaint that every Tom, Dick and Harry are trimming along the lines of "they are taking our business" or because they are trimming badly and producing all these lame horses that vets and farriers are having to clear up the mess? Or both?
 
Heelfirst said:
Vets are another matter: they have 3 main problems as far as I see it:
1) They make very little money out of barefoot per se
2) They do not want to be in, or cause conflict with the farriery profession
3) They do not wish to be seen to be ‘outside the box’ by their own profession

The complaint I hear most from both professions is, every Tom, Dick, & Harry is trimming now, and this is something we have to deal with.
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Where are the horses' best interests in all this?

All it seems to me is they all, Vets Farriers and even some Trimmers and owners just want to carry on in the old ways! When a horse is not healable with surgical and shoeing interventions just retire or pts and start the whole cycle again! Why are humans so wedded to the idea they know best and the more radical and invasive the treatment the 'better' it must be?

Getting rid of "every Tom, Dick and Harry" wont stop owners questioning and finding other ways, the old money spinning comfort zone is being questioned too widely now.
 
But surely the best way to deal with "every tom dick and harry trimming" is for farriers to embrace the interest in barefoot educate themselves and remove the need for an owner to consult anyone else regarding their horse's feet. There are a few doing this, my own farrier told the vet that there was no need to put my horse in heartbars or imprints and has been supportive of our barefoot journey but many are very blinkered.
 
Heelfirst said:
Vets are another matter: they have 3 main problems as far as I see it:
1) They make very little money out of barefoot per se
2) They do not want to be in, or cause conflict with the farriery profession
3) They do not wish to be seen to be ‘outside the box’ by their own profession
Click to expand...

Agree. But also, many vets couldn't recognise an unhealthy or poorly trimmed/shod hoof if it kicked them up the derriere.

A friend of mine's horse was referred to Leahurst a couple of years ago - the horse had horrendously contracted, infected heels and the treating vet there thought they were "fine". I could not believe my ears. Hell will freeze before any of mine go to Leahurst for anything hoof-related!
 
Same with a friend of mine. Aside from the fact that Leahurst put him through a scintigraph before they nerve blocked and ran the insurance right up to its limit, they said he had insufficient soft tissue damage on MRI to account for the lameness and gave him a twenty percent chance of every working properly again.

They said his feet were good, though it was perfectly clear to me that a winter of inactivity due to little turnout and dark nights had atrophied the back of his feet so his frogs were not in work on a hard surface.

The horse was sound in all paces after only eight weeks at rockley and has been fine ever since.

I am reminded of my first great vet, who used to call a spade a spade. When I told him what I was achieving with barefoot rehab, he did not say 'it won't work' or even 'it won't always work', he said 'you'll put us out of business'. What better explanation do we need for why more vets are not embracing this?
 
Not really sure how barefoot is going to put vets out of business?
All the local vet practices I work with (as a farrier) would make about the same from a barefoot solution as a shoeing one.
Ie, the vet will get paid for the call out and diagnosis etc then, the foot part of it would get handed over to me. It will not matter how I decide to treat it but, providing the vet agrees, the costs from then on would not be passed to the vet anyway.
If the vet suggested taking off the shoes or suggested putting on shoes that cost £1000 they get paid just the same for making that decision.
I would then get the money for the rest of it. They may get more money if they wanted to reassess the horse every 2 weeks rather than every 4 months (in consultation fees) but that's all going to be more dependent on the issue and the owner than the treatment used.
 
MRI
Scintigraphy
X rays and repeat x rays.
Adequan
Tildren
Long term Bute/danilon/metacam
Injections into navicular bursa and coffin joint


All profitable for vets, and all completely unnecessary with a barefoot rehab, mrfarrier.

As a matter of interest are you still trying to cure foot lame horses with shoes?
 
trying. some working some failing.
But then I have also had successes and fails with barefoot as well.

So are you saying that nothing on that expensive list is needed and you could just do a barefoot rehab for any foot lameness?
 
Vets are in the business of treating sick animals and trying to extend the working lives of lame horses. And yes money is made to do this or they would go out of business fairly quickly! But some on this thread make it sound like vets try to deliberately keep the horse lame in order to keep coining it in which is preposterous lol.
I took my dog for an MRI scan years ago, she had a spinal tumour and it was the only diagnostic test that showed what the problem was. It cost me over £1k (10 years ago) which may sound a lot, but it costs not short of £1,000,000 to keep that machine running for a year (not even thinking of what it cost to buy initially *gulp*) so how many cases have to be scanned before a profit is made???
I think the main reason barefoot isn't recommended as much as surgical shoeing (for which as mrfarrier has pointed out vets get no financial gain) is the quite honestly the message isn't really out there yet. Whereas there is much documented evidence regarding shoeing. There is a vet local to me who is zealously pro barefoot and runs information evenings and clinics to get his message across. But I would admit he's in the minority. For science bods things have to be proved double proved and then checked again with double blind trials and then checked after time elapse etc before anyone will agree the grass is green lol. So I guess it may take some time!
As far as not recommending barefoot trimmers, it is because it's currently not a protected title and there is therefore huge variation in the skill base. While there are some hugely talented people and skilful people out there, there is also nothing to stop joe blogs going out there and calling himself a trimmer and going out and inflicting damage here there and everywhere. A similarly frustrating situation to physios. It's an area that needs looking into in my opinion. :-/. The pro barefoot vet in my area only recommends trimming by a barefoot friendly farrier. (And there is a high profile and very good trimmer in the area)
Edited to add I have one barefoot and one shod horse.
 
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mrfarrier said:
trying. some working some failing.
But then I have also had successes and fails with barefoot as well.

So are you saying that nothing on that expensive list is needed and you could just do a barefoot rehab for any foot lameness?
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I'm saying that if I had any horse that nerve blocked to a foot with mild lameness where i could see that the feet were not working as they should that I would personally remove the shoes and get the feet right before I would have any other treatment carried out.

I might have x rays in case of a fractured pedal bone, which I would shoe for.

In my own horses, I would x Ray immediately I had ruled out an abscess, because their feet are already functioning well with a strong caudal hoof and short toe.



I'm seriously interested in hearing about your barefoot failures, because we are only hearing about the successes and there must be some. I've had one myself, with a bone spur. on the navicular,

As a new poster though, you may not know that if you do volunteer that information you are likely to get a list of questions about how the horse was fed, kept, and worked. It's only fair to warn you :)
 
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Whereas there is much documented evidence regarding shoeing.
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I wish you were right, but there isn't. There are a small number of studies, most of which were done with tiny numbers. There is one big study of 82 horses which is so scientifically flawed that it's laughable. And not one of them has a control group of unshod horses.

Unless I've missed some somewhere, there is no more published scientifically valid evidence for shoeing as a treatment for caudal hoof lameness than there is for barefoot, though I really wish we had some!
 
I think this is the trouble tho because to do a proper trial there are just too many variables to make it viable. Every animal would have to have the same problem for a start so a full work up and diagnosis. Then all would need to be similar age, in the same amount of work, fed and managed the same etc etc and so I think it's fairly impossible to do accurately. I don't think it's that people are blinkered in terms the barefoot option.
There's also really only rockley farm offering the rehab service at the moment and so that isn't easily accessible for a lot of people and from experience there's lots of hurdles doing it yourself especially for those of us on a livery yard. Barefoot was a big decision for me and certainly is a lot more high maintenance than shoeing (at least at the moment!). I guess as with all things. You get given all options, likely prognosis and scenario in each case and then you try to make an educated decision which to follow. There will be successes and failures whichever route you take.
 
Just as an aside and not particularly relevant. When Dee went lame, the vet wanted her in graduated heartbars, the farrier wanted her in natural balance shoes and I wanted her barefoot lol. So absolutely no agreement between any of the professionals lol!
Plus 6 months in Dee's feet look the best they ever have. Underrun heels reducing. Big sulcus disappeared from frogs which are beefing up. Really starting to look fab..... and yet the blummin thing has just gone lame again!!!!! grrrrr!
 
There are too many people not being given the options, though, and far too many like Sheep still being told by their vets and farriers that it won't work, or even that they will damage the horse. I really thought that with people like heelfirst and rockley around we could get the message out there much quicker, but it's like wading through treacle.

Short of winning the lottery and financing a big research project, has anyone any ideas how we can get this through to the vets and farriers who haven't heard or aren't interested?

I am, as you can tell, so frustrated that horses are still being put down for lameness before anyone even tries to take the shoes off.



Edit aj I hope your horse is right again soon.
 
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I think a good start would be someone high profile like Rockley to speak to BEVA and maybe do some lectures perhaps? I would be very interested in attending something like that. Perhaps offering to do a talk at some of the vet schools as well???
My farrier runs afternoon courses with the barefoot friendly vet where you go and look at actual feet and pictures of feet and try to determine what's good and what's not about them. Its a positive step around here in educating people how to recognize a good foot as a starting point! But is too low key to get the message out more generally.
I'm sure Dee has just trod on a stone. She has a reactive spot with the hoof testers that is currently not bruised (and I have no intent on digging into her already thinnish soles to find out!!) No black tracts. And not getting worse that makes me fear an abscess. A waiting game while it settles I think! And I'm the most impatient person in the world lol.
 
cptrayes said:
There are too many people not being given the options, though, and far too many like Sheep still being told by their vets and farriers that it won't work, or even that they will damage the horse. I really thought that with people like heelfirst and rockley around we could get the message out there much quicker, but it's like wading through treacle.

.
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Totally agree. Many are only finding the options from sites like this.

I became interested in the rehab part of the current barefoot "fad" in 1999. That is 15 years ago. Despite all the problems that Strasser caused it was obvious to even a lay person like me that this had merit so wading through treacle is a perfect description. Extremely thick treacle sometimes. Fifteen years to get this far. It is more like come back in a 100 and there might be progress!

My own vet is a partner and thinks outside the box. I suspect many of the others in that practice woudn't. I guess the younger vets are accountable to the partners in the various practices and would be unwilling to step outside the box if their boss followed conventional methods.

It is depressingly, depressingly slow. Whilst it is being proven a million times for the scientific bods horses are being written off.
I remember someone asking Ramey a similar question in 2005 when he was over here and he was commenting about vets and the cases he had treated. The answer was along the lines that vets didn't consider the 99 cases that had been resolved only the 1 case that had failed.
 
ann-jen said:
Vets are in the business of treating sick animals and trying to extend the working lives of lame horses. And yes money is made to do this or they would go out of business fairly quickly! But some on this thread make it sound like vets try to deliberately keep the horse lame in order to keep coining it in which is preposterous lol.
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Of course that is preposterous.

Vets and farriers are using treatments they are taught to use. This is where part of the problem lies imho.

We have had threads discussing research for treatments and protocols and there has been little linked to suggest shoeing is successful. So it appears to me there is no research to back up shoeing options as long term and successful treatment options.

To me there appears to be a fundamental difference in understanding. Shoeing options support and protect the hoof and (good) BF options support the hoof and encourage the hoof to strengthen and build soft structures. Protecting and supporting the hoof in a system that doesn't allow gradual bio-mechanically correct exercize of the hoof soft tissues to strengthen them allows that soft tissue to become even weaker. Use it or lose it comes into play.
 
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