There's so much fuss about Rollkur etc but...

I know a girl who produces arabs for the show ring and she does all sorts of strange things to them, there's this thing they do with chains under their chin and the stand them up then pull them and bang them against their heads to get the proper show stance.
She was also clipping a foal one day to get him ready for the show ring.
They also used to put weights on their legs and put them on the walker for hours.
 
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But bex1984 no one has come on here and said that ALL DRESSAGE RIDERS USE ROLLKUR.
To post that ALL SHOWING PEOPLE use cruel and underhanded means to win IS insulting.

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I took it that the point of the OP was that these practices are widespread and those that don't do them often end up loosing out/at a disadvantage to those who do, which is obviously very unfair, and that a lot of people don't realise what is going on, and maybe if they did it would receive more media coverage and more people power, just like rollkur/hyperflexion has recently.
 
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I find it quite worrying that there are people replying to this thread who are more wrapped up in defending themselves and the reputation of showing than being disgusted that this stuff goes on.

Although.... perhaps that answers my original question re why the showing world isn't standing up against this behaviour in the same way the dressage world is.

I don't care if my original post reflects badly on showing, and if you cared about things changing for the better, neither would you. It's a shame that you think it's okay as long as you're not doing it yourself.

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I agree but no doubt as I don't Show etc. I'm not quallified to comment!

There's good and bad in all areas of horsemanship imo and the sooner we all face it the sooner we can start to change things surely!
 
So basically now what you are implying is that it is wrong for the few of us that don't use these methods to stand up for ourselves?
We can't even make ourselves heard on a ruddy forum, do you think we have a chance against the big guns of the showing world???

Maybe Munchkin you should have pointed out in your original post that ALL SHOWING PEOPLE ARE CRUEL AND IF YOU DONT AGREE DONT POST BECAUSE ALL WE WANT TO DO IS CONDEMN YOU ALL YOU WILL ALL BE TARRED WITH THE SAME BRUSH.
So not only are you insulting a few off us, you are now trying to take away our right to defend ourselves and our freedom of speech.
All through this post I have admitted that it goes on, I've seen it first hand. I've lost out to 'battery farmed ponies' BUT I have my conscience intact.
 
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So basically now what you are implying is that it is wrong for the few of us that don't use these methods to stand up for ourselves?
We can't even make ourselves heard on a ruddy forum, do you think we have a chance against the big guns of the showing world???

Maybe Munchkin you should have pointed out in your original post that ALL SHOWING PEOPLE ARE CRUEL AND IF YOU DONT AGREE DONT POST BECAUSE ALL WE WANT TO DO IS CONDEMN YOU ALL YOU WILL ALL BE TARRED WITH THE SAME BRUSH.
So not only are you insulting a few off us, you are now trying to take away our right to defend ourselves and our freedom of speech.
All through this post I have admitted that it goes on, I've seen it first hand. I've lost out to 'battery farmed ponies' BUT I have my conscience intact.

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I'm sorry but I am really confused. I *think* we are trying to support you in getting your voices heard, but I'm not sure that's how you're seeing it?
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I was trying to be supportive too definitely.
It reminds me a bit of the dog showing world, is that a good comparison? 'Good' breeders/showers and those who will go to any lengths and are in with the in crowd...
 
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I find it quite worrying that there are people replying to this thread who are more wrapped up in defending themselves and the reputation of showing than being disgusted that this stuff goes on.

Although.... perhaps that answers my original question re why the showing world isn't standing up against this behaviour in the same way the dressage world is.

I don't care if my original post reflects badly on showing, and if you cared about things changing for the better, neither would you. It's a shame that you think it's okay as long as you're not doing it yourself.

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Ok by people that clearly means ME. I have not yet defended the reputation of showing. I have very clearly stated my disgust at what goes on.
Could you please point out in my posts where exactly I say that it is ok to practice these methods? I don't care HOW your post reflects on showing-I'm out of that world now. What I do care about and find ignorant, ill informed, nasty, insulting is your use of wording stating that ALL involved in showing are using these cruel methods.
 
WoopsiiD, so what is your point? I admitted that there are people who don't do this but who lose out to those who do, which is wrong, which is my point. It is widespread, it is the norm at the top.

I wanted a discussion. I think people who DO show should say yes, we AGREE this is wrong and we should make that known. I want to know why this stuff goes on and nobody says anything. Making this all about you, which it isn't, is detracting from the point entirely.

Bex - I appreciate you attempting to defend me mate, but she knows what my point is (even said so herself), is just a little caught up in playing the victim, when I've already made myself perfectly clear and said I am accusing her of nothing. Some people on this forum are just like that
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But Muchkin both Woopsii ID and I have posted examples where by not using the methods you describe have not lost out so what is your point?

I have to say that I do find the tone of your post irritating, rather condescending and as I have previously stated far too sweeping in nature.

Edited due to poor typing
 
Bex1984
My issue is that the OP claims that everyone in showing is cruel.
I object to that.

IMO these methods are not only cruel but tantamount to cheating. Sadly as I have said before, since there is no 'visual' scoring as in SJ i.e you knock a pole its +4 and its just down to what the judge fancies that day......or who took him out to dinner......trying to bring these issues to light is a huge task.
You complain and all you get is that you are a sore looser. There is no 'real' governing body to go to.
The only thing you can do is report the training methods as cruelty and hope that an outside agency can see for themselves the method in practice.
 
I said, at the top level, I never met anyone who didn't. That is the truth.

I'm not ignorant... I was ignorant before I saw all of this. Now I'm enlightened, disgusted, and a little bored of arguing with you about your personal problem with the wording of my first post. I'm sure everyone else is bored of it too, so we'll finish it here and get back to the original question.

You are free to PM me if you feel the need to continue this.
 
Having worked in showing yard from the age of 13-20 I never EVER came across any of these awful things.
Our horses were happy, healthy and successful.

Like with Dressage/SJ/Eventing/Polo etc dont tar everyone with the same brush.
 
I think there are dreadful things that go on in all disciplines, I lost my first pony, who had qualified for HOYS both in Newcomers and Foxhunters but at 13.3 and half was too tall for their ideas of doing 13.2 classes.

Unknown to me at the time she was on loan (which really is no excuse and one I have never forgiven myself for), the people had her feet severly trimmed to get her into 13.2 classes. She got shock lami and after a long hard fight (she missed HOYS) we let her go on the 5th Nov 1991. It breaks my heart and still does, she started her career as a show pony, when not well behaved enough, the people that owned her were family friends, my nan had just died and left me enought money to buy and keep my own first ever pony and that was her, when I got to big, I thought I had found the perfect home for her just down the road, but it seem their ambition was bigger than the welfare of my pony. Her talent was SJ.

She was a star, and every firework night she shines brightly again. This is why I try and fight for our competition horses. There is kind way that produces results, it may take a little longer but I would much prefer a good quality 10 yo that starts to make a name for themselves than abusing a 6yo to get there sooner.

There are people on here that show to a high level, and in truth there horses look stunning, well looked after and not grossly overweight, but no body can deny it goes on.

Until judges look on incorrect schooling, weight, etc etc nothing will change, but we can keep fighting, keep putting our voice to the unfair that horses can't. It takes a lot for a rider to admit their horse is not going to achieve the levels they require, and carry on using whatever methods are available to them to try and achieve that. Every horse has a use, it may not be the one we desire, it takes a big person to admit it, and maybe sell the horse honestly into a happy home, where as a lot of riders wont admit defeat, or cant afford what they need to do their required discipline, so misuse occurs. We are growing in strength and the abusers really are in the minority these days, so lets keep making a noise.

No horses is useless, it may just be in the wrong job and call me fluffy a horse should be able to enjoy his life as much as we enjoy ours riding them.
 
To be honest, I find this post most uninteresting, and that's coming from someone who is heavily involved in showing.

The things mentioned in the first post do happen. Just as all the bad things in eventing, showjumping, driving, dressage etc etc etc happen. Some top class show horses are treated like that - the majority are not. Some top class show jumpers/eventers/dressage horses etc are treated like that - the majority are not.

A huge amount of the posts from people on here come from ill informed 'happy horse people' (ie those who have their horse for pleasure, doing the odd competition) who get their information from the hard hitting posts like this one and say "That's terrible, I had no idea top level horses were treated like that! I shall never watch the showing at HOYS again!". In reality, there are very few people who treat their horses like that and anyone who believes otherwise has not done their research and is believing everything they read.

To the person who said that showing was only for people who couldn't jump, do dressage, were too scared to event etc - you made me laugh. I DARE you to try producing a top class show horse and qualify for HOYS. I DARE you to try riding in a ring of top level horse people. I bet any money you couldn't - people like you have NO IDEA how much hard work and dedication goes into producing show horses. Such ill informed and insane comments are laughable.

I know of more than 10 different show yards who I can assure you do not use any of the 'tricks' you have described. The horses are happy, healthy and very well produced - they are fed and worked like any top class competition horse; if they are not happy, they will not perform in the ring.

There are so so so many people who do not understand showing in the slightest. They think it is boring, uncompetitive and for people who "can't ride." Which is fair enough - I can't stand dressage, it is as boring as hell, the people are insufferable and I have seen some awful treatment. I also dislike showjumping. But that is my opinion - I love showing!

I am NOT defending what goes on in the showing world. If you did any reading, you'd realise that there is a massive hoo ha at the moment over measuring - many ponies measured out this year and people now realise that they WILL be caught if there is a scam going on with the measuring.

To be honest, people who've been to one local show where the quality was crap and everyone fought over who had the longest tail or the pokiest nose will never like showing - in their view it's all cruel and corrupt. Which is fair enough, I can't be doing with them.
 
Let's just say after a short period of tension for refusing to do any of it myself (which technically was my role) I was asked to leave as I finally opened my mouth. This was met by a lot of verbal abuse - "This is the way it's done, there is a reason you'll never be successful, it takes too long to do it any other way, everybody does it" yada yada.

I've just re-read my original post. The only things I accused everyone of doing was creating a false outline (granted, I had ponies in mind, but saw it time and time again with horses too) and overfeeding (which I stand by completely).

I finished by saying that this stuff was widespread and normal. It is. Just because some of you don't see it doesn't mean it's not happening.

I saw horses DIE on the yard, and heard of others on competitors yards. This was within 10 months. And yet, you're still more concerned about the fact I offended you; still want to defend showing as a whole.

Thank God the dressage fraternity don't take this attitude against rollkur.

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Until judges look on incorrect schooling, weight, etc etc nothing will change, but we can keep fighting, keep putting our voice to the unfair that horses can't. It takes a lot for a rider to admit their horse is not going to achieve the levels they require, and carry on using whatever methods are available to them to try and achieve that. Every horse has a use, it may not be the one we desire, it takes a big person to admit it, and maybe sell the horse honestly into a happy home, where as a lot of riders wont admit defeat, or cant afford what they need to do their required discipline, so misuse occurs. We are growing in strength and the abusers really are in the minority these days, so lets keep making a noise.

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Thank you scally, that was exactly the sort of response I was hoping for.
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So, back to the original query. Why all the fuss about dressage riders using Rollkur, show jumpers using draw reins, but not about this?

Maybe its because you don't see 'at home in draw reins' pictures of show producers? Or no-one uploads videos of show producers 'with blue tongued horses' to youtube?
Lets face it the majority of people on this very forum are dressage/sj'ers/eventers so have little or no interest in 12.2 first ridden's so aren't aware of what goes on. Very few people go to great lengths to learn about something that holds no interest to them.
 
Rockpaperscissors - I agree with you in general, but unfortunately my experience (less than two years ago) was at the very top level, and not limited to one yard. It certainly hasn't come from misguided forum posts or rumour - to be honest I wouldn't have believed half the things I saw if I'd read them!

Re the measuring point - that is why I didn't mention it in the first place
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I think that's true WoopsiiD, and also perhaps some of it is less sort of visually graphic? Feeding up a horse so that is becomes obese (can you tell this is my major bugbear?! ) may look less 'shocking' from the outside than a horse with a blue tongue. On a showing forum these topics may well be discussed all the time, but as you say, this forum is mainly other disciplines.
 
Can you please, because I read and re-read my posts point me in the direction of me defending showing? For goodness sake I have said several times that its corrupt and its whoever is flavour of the month that wins. I have said some methods are cruel. I've even said I've seen them done, but I can't see where I have defended showing?
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Rockpaperscissors - I agree with you in general, but unfortunately my experience (less than two years ago) was at the very top level, and not limited to one yard. It certainly hasn't come from misguided forum posts or rumour - to be honest I wouldn't have believed half the things I saw if I'd read them!

Re the measuring point - that is why I didn't mention it in the first place
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That's interesting - I'd love to know what yards they were (although realise you won't tell me, for obvious reasons) as I've not witnessed such things at the yards I've been at. Granted, that is mostly pony yards, but many of your points are aimed at ponies anyway.

Everyone has an opinion about everything and, as people keep truthfully saying, there is cruelty in everything (racing, eventing, SJ, dressage, polo, everything!) - I just hope that people don't get the idea that this happens widespread throughout the showing world. Most folk don't like showing (because it's boring, apparently) and things like this don't help that. However, there is a lot of this sort of stuff said about all horse sports - and how many people do you see quitting dressage/SJ because of it?
 
I'm not asking anyone to quit showing
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what I'm asking is why the showing fraternity aren't up in arms about these practices - or at least the people who are supposed to be in charge/looking out for the welfare of the horse, as they seem to be in other disciplines?

For example, SJ over the years has seen drugging, weighted boots, spiked boots, rapping, adults riding ponies etc stopped (on the showground at least) and now the whole hoo-har with Rollkur in dressage (which apparently should be policed anyway, but isn't, or at least not very well). However some of the things I described (ie the lunging all night, adults on ponies, massive feeds, heads tied in) all happened on the showground as well as at home. The showground is one place somebody could take control and say no... but nobody does. I simply don't understand why?

WoopsiiD - I guess I'm assuming that's what you were doing, as the alternatives are a) defending yourself (whom I haven't accused of anything) or b) anyone else who does not use cruel methods and shortcuts (whom I have already pointed out have an unfair disadvantage against those who do when those who do can beat them) - so I'm at a loss. Sorry.

I'm enjoying the actual discussions with the other [showing] members now. Who I haven't accused of cruelty either, by the way.
 
Bex1984- now overfeeding any horse is also one of my bugbears, but as you so rightly say because it doesn't 'look' cruel or have shock factor its overlooked constantly. How many times have we all been to a show and seen someone digging spurs in and using the crop to get a clear and all tutted and shook our heads? Now how many of us can honestly say that we have had the same reaction when we have seen an overweight horse?
 
Rockpaperscissors, I dont believe people realise half the effort and work that goes into producing a top show horse or pony, I have only ever had a small glimpse by friends that were producers.

However, to produce a well schooled animal that will let any unknown rider get on, in the middle of the ring, with goodness knows what going on around them, when their adrenalin is up, behaving themselves, being responsive and listen to a strange rider and behave impecably takes a lot of hard work and dedication, let alone the turn outside of things.

However, we have to be realistic and admit things are wrong in all disciplines were horses are involved and fight for the better of the horse, even a negative post such as this on showing, has a positive and we can fight to better the disciplines we compete in, not just get defensive over our beloved choice.

I adore SJ everything about it, however I admit there is a lot wrong, and I will not keep quiet about it whilst one horse may suffer through ignorance, neglect, poor training or the desire to win, showing is a hard discipline to get to the top in as any of the others, but sometimes to better the cause is to admit the short failings and support those that are trying to make things a little fairer and an equal playing field.

After all without the horses none of us would have our hobbies our our sport.
 
Munchkin-when I was showing there were some days when I got off the box, looked around and knew-before even taking travel boots off, let alone getting jockey on and into ring-who had won the class.
Low and behold......
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What showing needs sooner rather than later is a huge shake up. It needs proper structure. It needs a proper complaint procedure. Those of us that aren't winning need to know that we would be able to make a complaint without getting the backlash that comes with it.
I really didn't want to bad mouth anyone on a forum so mentioning no names... I once did complain about a well known producer. I had been on their yard and seen some horrific practices. I took Lush and left. I complained to what I thought were the relevant authorities. The outcome? It was me that suffered. I was practically blacklisted. Every show I turned up at that a certain judge was at I knew I was wasting time, effort and money. They simply closed ranks. In the end I went to the RSPCA.
Us one pony show people stand no chance.
 
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However, we have to be realistic and admit things are wrong in all disciplines were horses are involved and fight for the better of the horse, even a negative post such as this on showing, has a positive and we can fight to better the disciplines we compete in, not just get defensive over our beloved choice.

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scally - you have a way with words. I should have let you edit my original post for me and saved myself a lot of hassle
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On that note, night all
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Well maybe I'm just very easy to ignore, I usually just kill threads......

But Muchkin I think the point I am trying to get across to you is that those of who do not use the methods you describe are still highly competitive, can and do compete and are succesful at the level you describe. As such the point of your argument is not so clear.
 
I honestly do not know the answer to your question.

The BSPS do have a rule which says you cannot use anything on the showground that you cannot use in the ring (ie no side reins). I have been to a number of BSPS shows where this rule has been enforced. Until a rule is brought in that says "Only the person riding the horse in the ring may ride it outside the ring", I don't think you can stop that. The BSPS at least seem good at policing their rules; there is frequent measuring and dope testing and there has been a HUGE reduction in the number of overweight ponies at shows. You might not see this at local level, but I have stewarded in the ring at a number of large shows where well known ponies have been put down the line for being overweight - the number of overweight ponies is decreasing rapidly each year.

However, how can you police what goes on at home? If you go onto the yards of many professional horse people in all events, you will see 'cruel' treatment - but how can you stop that? What goes on at home is your own business, and unless terribly cruel practice is exposed then these things will carry on.

The only 'bad' things I've seen at shows are : adults riding in ponies (as I said above, what can you do about that if it's not a rule?), riding in for several hours (again, surely that is the owners decision - I have seen showjumpers ridden in/lunged for many hours too) - and that's about it. People do have lots of rugs on ponies but I have NEVER seen any over rugged on hot days, and people cannot tie horses heads in on shogrounds anymore. At least not in pony circles.
 
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