There's so much fuss about Rollkur etc but...

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Janette:

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Grow up

[/ QUOTE ] I'm sorry but I'm angry. I lost sleep over what I saw. I envy you in your little bubble of lovely people and ponies.

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2 years of lost sleep? And yes, I do have a lovely pony, and yes the people who run my DIY yard ARE lovely! Do you have a problem with that?

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You mentioned Rolkur - again not 'everybody' practices this technique. Sweeping statements. Get a grip.

[/ QUOTE ] Where on EARTH did I say everyone practices Rollkur? Now you've lost me completely... I think perhaps we're reading different threads.



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Why all the fuss about dressage riders using Rollkur, show jumpers using draw reins, but not about this?

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The fuss is about SOME dressage riders using Rolkur. The tone of your post was quite accusatory and commented on 'the world of showing'. Perhaps you really should have said SOME showing yards.
 
I don't really know a great deal about pony showing as I have a native but from my knowledge of native pony showing I would say 99% of native pony owners adore their ponies and would never stand for this sort of treatment and would not keep a pony on that sort of yard.

However that does not mean that I think that the OP is lying or that that sort of yard does not exist. I understand she has had an unpleasant experience and most of us if we had experienced the same thing would have very negative feeling towards the showing community.

There are plenty of fat horses and ponies around I agree but not just in the show ring lots of leisure ponies and horses are also too fat. With native ponies and cobs it is very hard to keep the weight off not just show ones but ones that are used for leisure riding too. My pony has no cereal based hard feeds in the summer but even then I struggle with his weight.

Why don't people report the showing stuff? Possibly on the pony yards the children do not understand what is going on and perhaps the parents are not from horsey backgrounds so they do not understand the welfare issues. If owners only meet up with the ponies on show days they may not know what goes on to get the pony/horse to that level. This only leaves those who work on the yards to report undesirable treatment.

I would say video diaries is what you would need. Maybe a showing sabateur who would go round all the showing yards hiding in bushes and filming behaviour and then telling their local MP's!

I have over the years seen all sort of things happen to horses at shows and in non competition venues such as livery yards that I have not agreed with, but I don't think going up to these people and telling them not to do it will make any difference, in fact they will probably get even more angry with their horse as soon as you go away.

As with rollkur unless you make it illegal this sort of stuff is still going to happen at home people just won't do it warming up at competitions. Whilst rollkur is unpleasant I would say that other elements of the way competition horses are kept would bother me more such as lack of turnout and the chance to socialise with other horses in a free environment.
 
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Ummm Am I the only one wondering then, why as a horse owner/lover you are A.Still friends with them and B.Have not reported them???
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In answer, I have been friends with these people for most of my life and at every opportunity I do tell them that what they are doing is wrong and will only last so long before somebody (including the ponies) gets badly hurt. I have also spoken at length with several people who judge/run shows at BSPS and NPS and they are now aware of such treatment and are monitoring the situation closely. How can it be right to mouth and longrein a 12hh pony in a 4 ring bit on the bottom ring, just to make the picture nicer?

This is not a new thing it has been around since I was showing in 80's, I just believe that because it is now the done thing to have your pony with a producer it is now more results oreintated.

I can and will name names to any interested person. I also have pictures of damage done to ponies, but I cannot post pics at the moment because of a laptop fault.

As others have said I do know of many utterly lovely people who produce show ponies correctly, I just don't understand why pony showing shouldn't also get it's house in order.
 
Several years ago I worked on a yard producing top level show hunters and working hunters (both ponies and horses). I was shocked to see and hear about what was considered 'commonplace' at that particular yard, and the yards connected to it. The producer was (and I think still is, to a lesser extent) a top level judge.

Whilst I am sure it is highly unlikely that it happens at 'every' leading yard, I know it happens at several yards because I saw it and heard it first hand (and yes, although it shocked me, I didn't feel it my place to intervene, rightly or wrongly). My boss used to deprive the horses/ponies of water for 24 hours prior to a show - she would lunge the animal wrapped in thick plastic, topped with a heavyweight rug (this was during summer) until it sweated heavily, then turn it out fully wrapped so it sweated in the heat of the sun. Then it would be brought in and the water bucket removed from the stable. The mare I recall this happening to was not a childs pony either, she was being shown by an adult in a ridden M&M WHP class. I assume that the witholding of water was meant to keep the horse quiet (it can't have been a brilliant theory as she never knew I used to sneak water out to the horse regardless
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I also heard (by listening to my ex boss talking to another well known producer of hunter ponies) that they had had a chunk of bone removed from the pony's wither to get it to measure under height.
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My eyes were opened - I never witnessed anything that bad in the event yards or the yearling prep yard I worked in - but I am fairly certain that corrupt and unsavoury practices happen in all sorts of yards in all sorts of disciplines and to say that 'all' show producers follow the same procedures is perhaps a bit excessive.
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I just don't know what to say about all of this...if these things do go on, and it would appear that there are enough people speaking up on this thread to make a case for at the very least an investigation into methods used by show producers, then we need to make a noise about this, as it is not right that horses and ponies are abused in the name of a rosette.
 
Well I hadn't heard of all of these, but I'm afraid I'm not surprised. Not saying that "everyone" does these things, but I daresay some do.

A relative works at a local County show in the stable area, and said that the lunging started at 3.00 a.m. this year.
 
I think the only way to stop this sort of practices is for owners to boycott the producers who do not treat ponies and horses well. Unfortunately some owners may not be aware of what is being done and I guess it is not possible to name and shame producers because of libel.

I wonder if those riders who practice rollkur have had their businesses suffer due to the adverse publicity.

It is a sad world that we live in where horses and ponies are abused so that owners and riders can feel good about themselves by winning. I am glad I do not have to resort to such desperate measures.
 
I have heard of people tying planks of wood to the legs of foals, so that they trot with their legs straight.TBH, I think that all this abuse is totally unacceptable, whoever the person is or whatever purpose it is for!
 
SO1 this will only happen when people wise up. Unfortunately the people who bully ponies, only do it because they can, I hate to see these ponies who are wound up by adults to provoke a response, then get leathered or worked into the ground for a child to ride. Why not be nice to the pony let it behave normally and teach the child to ride properly.
I don't buy the fact that a 6 yr old child (who incidently would still be on the lead rein) is not capable of schooling a pony. If the child and pony are well matched then why not, I did, nobody rode my ponies, sometimes they were great, sometimes they were horrid, but they were all 'child's ponies' and all qualified for BSPS champs (when you had to qualify rather than just enter a class, but hey thats a whole new debate!
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Aside from the obvious welfare issues, I think it makes for a very unlevel playing field (irrespective of what discipline) and I think it is a great shame for the large numbers of people who truly produce their horses correctly with no short cuts or unneccessarily cruel practices. (This is only my opinion as someone who has seen the unsavoury side of the showing world so please do not jump on me - I can only offer my comments on things I have experienced).

I walked out on my old boss (well, I had to wait until she unblocked the drive with her car, which took some time!) as her treatment of her staff was on a level with her treatment of her horses
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<font color="blue"> it does not happen at most top yards</font>

Bollocks. Sorry.

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????
BBs and Weezy are just two HHO people who have been to our yard - ask them what they saw.
 
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BBs and Weezy are just two HHO people who have been to our yard - ask them what they saw.

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But you are not the only yard are you, you are one yard of many.
 
I don't actually care that much about the other yards - the OP said ALL yards, people have responded saying ALL yards and I really rather object to that!

Specifically, Bright Eyes said

"it does not happen at most top yards"

(to which she responded "Bollocks. Sorry. "

Wouldn't you be a little cross?
 
<font color="blue"> If so, if you are still so angry and upset, why not really do something about it? </font>

It's not as easy as that.

If I am ever 'going to die anyway', I'll have a few things to say which I dare not atm on this topic.

I do not believe for one minute you don't know of the methods used on small ponies to train them to go 'on the bit' or a parody of it. You need LEG to go on the bit, up to the hand! Show me a lead rein jockey with leg past the saddle flaps.

I was at HOYS and watched with dismay the grossly overweight ponies with their impossibly tiny heads and matchstick legs - disproportionate only in thier obesity
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Our Welsh Sec B could jump the pants of anything at HOYS and has hunted up with the master, jumping HUGE walls and drops and ditches, moves straight, has 'look at me' but would never EVER win a WH class at shows because I refuse to put any condition whatsoever on him. (He's a tad overheight but no matter, I could have his high withers broken...)

And I know first hand of the practices, believe me. Just can't afford to make any enemies.

I was trying to tell someone (a show producer) fat is not inert. It releases damaging and time-bomb chemicals into the system and is the reason behind EMS and worsen's Cushing's. Never mind laminitis. The suggestion of ribs should be there, visible ever so slightly just beneath the skin. You show me a HOYS animal fulfilling that criteria! It was completely ignored, and it appears that the longevity of an animal is secondary to its success in the showring. I suggest that an aged show pony is one which defies the rules. They are, for the very most part, overtly steroidal creatures, over-clipped, over-rugged, over-fed travesties of horses and ponies.

Who hasn't seen workers huff, puff and struggle round BSJA courses, in training for the show season? Heartbreaking! Not all, I grant you, but many, many. Why are showjumpers so lean? Look at any track athlete. Aww get real.

Sorry but showing is predominantly for the vain and morally deficient in so many cases. Hence the name 'showing'. Yes, dodgy stuff goes on in all disciplines, but sinister, less obvious stuff is rife in the showing world. And I am sure you all know this.

And no, I am stone-cold sober, before anyone says it. Sober and furious about everything horrid in the horseworld. I am off to breeding to start a rant in there about more bloody foals!
 
1. We don't "do" small ponies, so I can say hand on heart I have no idea on how they are produced.
2. Nearly all our show horses are expected to be able to do an hours reasonably fast work a couple of times a week in Windsor Park so have to be fairly fit. Most of them jump fairly regularly as well to give them something more interesting to do.
3. Several of the HOYS hunters have been hunting 3 times since HOYS and appear to have managed without a problem.
4. Maybe I am vain and morally deficient - but what makes you so much better than me? Our horses are all happy, our show cob represented GB in dressage at the age of 20 years old, and is still going strong (the chestnut in my avatar and sig), our HOYS riding horse died a few years ago at the age of 30 - the black horse in my sig, along with his companion who had been champion riding horse at HOYS in his time (also in his 30s) - so we can't have done anything that bad to them.

I can only comment on what happens at OUR yard. Come in the middle of the show season to see the horses being prepared for a show - turn up unannounced - you won't see anything untoward.

We cannot be held responsible for the way other producers treat their horses, and neither will we be looked at as guilty of things that we do not do.

Surely, accepting that we as a yard do not take short cuts in the preparation of our horses, is helping a situation by demonstrating that things can be done without the barbaric practices described by the OP? Why criticise us - what have WE done wrong?
 
Another 'morally deficient' show person here!!!
Why did I show? I showed a 12.2 not because I couldn't event or was too scared to jump or too crap to do dressage.
I showed because I was physically unable to safely ride. (A severe lack of balance means that on some days I just topple over-NOT a good idea when eventing!)
Showing was my way of competing. My way of being able to join in with the horsey world. I have no idea how it happened but I was blessed with a wonderful pony. A pony who very nearly went all the way.
To have people making comments while hiding behind a PC and Ye Olde 'I've had a drink so can be excused for my ignorant comments regarding all showing people' is somewhat insulting.
Doesn't matter what some of us say you have all decided on the basis of one person rant that we are all guilty as charged.
I'm actually surprised that ALL of you showjumpers have taken time out from riding in draw reins and rapping your horses and ALL of you dressage riders have enough time during your constant use of Rollkur to take the time to comment on this post!
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I do not agree I am afraid I do not think a 6 year old is capable of teaching a pony how to go in an outline and schooling it to the level it needs to be schooled to win at HOYs. They may be capable of riding an established pony and keeping it going but certainly not training a young pony and more and more young ponies are seen at the top level showing classes than ever now.
If it was that easy then producers would not resort to underhand methods for the mini's.

I am an adult who has ridden for over 30 years and I have found it hard to teach my young M&amp;M pony to go in an outline and work correctly. I do not use any gadgets nor have I resorted to any of the methods outlined by the OP but then I am not that successful either!

A lot of show ponies and horses to do well would need to be schooled at least to novice dressage level and I can't see that a 6 year old child is going to be able to do that however talented.

If showing was as easy as so many people think then why do people have to resort to doing nasty things to get the ponies to do well. The fact it is hard to produce a show horse or pony properly and it takes time and hard work to do it honestly. As it is hard and people want results quickly then it is the same as other equine sports people do things that are not pleasant to take short cuts.

A good horse or pony does not need to be fat to win but fat does cover up some conformation faults....so a less quality animal carrying more weight might do better than it would do if it was slimmer.

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SO1 this will only happen when people wise up. Unfortunately the people who bully ponies, only do it because they can, I hate to see these ponies who are wound up by adults to provoke a response, then get leathered or worked into the ground for a child to ride. Why not be nice to the pony let it behave normally and teach the child to ride properly.
I don't buy the fact that a 6 yr old child (who incidently would still be on the lead rein) is not capable of schooling a pony. If the child and pony are well matched then why not, I did, nobody rode my ponies, sometimes they were great, sometimes they were horrid, but they were all 'child's ponies' and all qualified for BSPS champs (when you had to qualify rather than just enter a class, but hey thats a whole new debate!
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<font color="blue"> If so, if you are still so angry and upset, why not really do something about it? </font>

It's not as easy as that.

If I am ever 'going to die anyway', I'll have a few things to say which I dare not atm on this topic.

I do not believe for one minute you don't know of the methods used on small ponies to train them to go 'on the bit' or a parody of it. You need LEG to go on the bit, up to the hand! Show me a lead rein jockey with leg past the saddle flaps.

I was at HOYS and watched with dismay the grossly overweight ponies with their impossibly tiny heads and matchstick legs - disproportionate only in thier obesity
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Our Welsh Sec B could jump the pants of anything at HOYS and has hunted up with the master, jumping HUGE walls and drops and ditches, moves straight, has 'look at me' but would never EVER win a WH class at shows because I refuse to put any condition whatsoever on him. (He's a tad overheight but no matter, I could have his high withers broken...)

And I know first hand of the practices, believe me. Just can't afford to make any enemies.

I was trying to tell someone (a show producer) fat is not inert. It releases damaging and time-bomb chemicals into the system and is the reason behind EMS and worsen's Cushing's. Never mind laminitis. The suggestion of ribs should be there, visible ever so slightly just beneath the skin. You show me a HOYS animal fulfilling that criteria! It was completely ignored, and it appears that the longevity of an animal is secondary to its success in the showring. I suggest that an aged show pony is one which defies the rules. They are, for the very most part, overtly steroidal creatures, over-clipped, over-rugged, over-fed travesties of horses and ponies.

Who hasn't seen workers huff, puff and struggle round BSJA courses, in training for the show season? Heartbreaking! Not all, I grant you, but many, many. Why are showjumpers so lean? Look at any track athlete. Aww get real.

Sorry but showing is predominantly for the vain and morally deficient in so many cases. Hence the name 'showing'. Yes, dodgy stuff goes on in all disciplines, but sinister, less obvious stuff is rife in the showing world. And I am sure you all know this.

And no, I am stone-cold sober, before anyone says it. Sober and furious about everything horrid in the horseworld. I am off to breeding to start a rant in there about more bloody foals!

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As I am a vain and morally deficient person who shows I thought I would reply .
My 128 and 148cm show ponies were with us until they were both 28yrs of age my 15hh whp we lost at 26 and my Intermidiate at 21?
All top ponies who had been to Hoys and RIHS with me.

Also my 15hh worker jumped up to Grade B and did Young Riders with me in the early 90's he was tiny and beleive me he was super fit as he had to be to jump those tracks and he was also very successful in the show ring as a whp he also evented up to Intermidiate again with me.

I still show today and it may shock some of you to find I dont own a set of draw reins, chambon or even a set of side reins as my jrt found them on the tack room floor last week and had them for dinner.
Today we hacked out all horses in snaffles and no martingales/flash nosebands not a gadget in site, we also do BD and hunt
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Anouther moraly bankrupt person here. Evidently my 26 yearold show pony, 28 yearold section B, 20 yearold connie and 20 yearoldarab are all badly abused.

I can tell you now that my arab had an enormous amount of damage done to him by a showjumper.
He showed extremly successfully at county level untill he was sold to a showjumping home,who chucked him at fences and expected him to get over them without teaching him how. So he had a nasty fall, damaged his back and was sold at a market because they didnt want to deal with him and his medical problems. I bought him, spent a fortune on him, got him back ridden and happy in the show ring. i've never jumped him since and he is now an expensive field ornament because of the damage done to him be the SHOWJUMPING HOME.

So maybe i should stan here and say ALL dressage people use Rolkur and beat thier horses with schooling sticks untill they bleed. oh and ALL show jumpers use spiked boots, draw reins and have no manners.
 
WoopsiiD - I do wish you'd stop using me as bait when arguing with other people. Just because they agree with me on some points of my original post doesn't mean I always agree with 100% of theirs - ie that all showing people are vain and morally deficient - we all have very slightly differing opinions. (FYI I had one glass of wine, hardly makes me a raging alcoholic. Just gave me the guts to finally say something as I knew the backlash would be exactly what it has been!)

I've been kindly given a couple of contact names by a "showing person" and a few yards and other horrific practises have also been named and shamed to me by a few others. I'll put together an e-mail asking for their advice. I don't expect them to listen, care or even respond, but at least I'll know I tried... and who knows, perhaps they'll surprise me
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Munchkin-then maybe you really shouldn't have started the post?
You can't expect to say that ALL show people are using cruel methods and not expect some backlash.
If I started a post say that ALL dressage riders are cruel as they use Rollkur and ALL showjumpers are cruel because they use draw reins whenever they place ass in the saddle then I'd expect a hell of a lot more!
 
I have since agreed not everyone, but that I have never MET ANYONE who didn't use points one and two. The other points I said were widespread, which nobody has denied. I'm sick of repeating this over and over. It seems to be the only argument left, "it's not all of us". Well my response to that is, good! But we've done it to death now, and I'm more interested in discussing the point at hand. There have actually been some very useful and interesting points made on both sides (not that there should be "sides" as we should all be fighting for the same outcome, really).

If other people want to make comments such as 'all show riders are vain and morally bankupt', that's up to them, but it certainly isn't my fault that it's their opinion.

I don't regret bringing this up. Happy to take a bashing if it means getting this out in the open and discussed. Unfortunately some people are incapable of discussion, but happily, not all. I'm only interested in the posts from the latter people now.
 
My reply wasn't aimed at you specifically BUT hand on heart, did you not look at some of the animals at HOYS and think - blimey, that is beyond fat?

I didn't say you specifically had anything to do with unnatural training methods or other unscrupulous practises - but can you honestly say your horses look like athletes? I am sure your horses look well, but do the ones which hunt look like real hunters? Can they stay all day? Have you ever seen their ribs in the way which is prescribed as healthy and desireable for a normal horse? If you did see them, would you smile happily - or rush to the feed room to top up the net and bucket?

I never said I wasn't morally deficient either. We all try, I'm sure, to do our best for our horses, but some seem to lose sight of what a horse is and turn them into totally contrived objects and subject them to wholly unnatural and frankly abhorrent treatment in the name of prize-winning.

It's the limits to which any horse or pony is pushed to win showing/jumping/racing etc prizes which really upsets me. Where showing is concerned, let them be horses, not glamour models with all the inherent interference with what's normal.
 
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Surely, accepting that we as a yard do not take short cuts in the preparation of our horses, is helping a situation by demonstrating that things can be done without the barbaric practices described by the OP?

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Precisely.
 
Well, there are some great photos of our horses hunting last week, but they are unfortunately copyrighted with the logo of the photographer across them! So can't let you decide for yourself. However, the coloured in my sig was champion at HOYS and RIHS this year - I think (for a cob) he looks quite athletic - dunno - what do you think?
 
OOOOhhh
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Well I can tell you now-you can choose to be interested in this or not-that a certain large organisation will not be interested.
When I made my complaint they actually phoned up the yard to make an appointment!!
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Oh FGS I don't believe for one minute that Munchkin has tarred everyone with the same brush - however, can anyone tell me how, without the aid of too much feed (and I include haylage), you can get your horse, or pony FAT? Well, in what is deemed to be the desireable showring size, to me it is plain FAT.

Judges are getting the message? No they are not. I'd like to see judges sending all (as outlined by WHW et al.) overweight horses and ponies out of the ring, and see how many prizes are given. Very few to none. And I'd like to see more perpetrator prosecutions and fines and confiscations of these blimp-creatures so they can be restored to a normal, healthy size.
 
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