There's so much fuss about Rollkur etc but...

It's not organisations I have contact details for. Yes, I'm still very dubious that they will care or do anything about it, as I'm sure they'll have had ample opportunity in the past, but at least I'll have tried and my conscience will be clear. Then, it's down to the show sabs posting things to YouTube...
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Slightly different question:

How do producers claim 'this 4yr old only came off the mountain/moor 2 weeks ago' and it is now trotting round the show ring in a perfect outline ridden by a child whose legs don't come down below the saddle flaps?

It's taken me years to get my pony on the bit. Yes I'm crap. But how do they do it in 2 weeks?

Or am I just being naive? That pony came off the mountain 12 1/2 months ago?

And how did they get it's head to stay where it is now?
 
I have to say that from experience, photographs always make them look fatter than they are in RL. So I don't wish to be drawn into that one. By virtue of the fact they are shown, they will be fed.

I have (can't you tell
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) big issues with even mildly overweight animals, since it is largely preventable and to think some feeding up is intentional - well, it is just heartbreaking...

To test my theory, reduce your horses' weights by, ooooh say 15% and see if they still win. If they do, you'll be a winner all round with smaller feed bills and fitter horses, plus the prize-money! If you don't, my theory will be proved that the fatter ones win, and you can congratulate yourself that judges are indeed out of touch with what's good for the horse and you wouldn't in that case, wish to be placed first by people with no thought or care for a truly fit and healthy example.
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[ QUOTE ]
Slightly different question:

How do producers claim 'this 4yr old only came off the mountain/moor 2 weeks ago' and it is now trotting round the show ring in a perfect outline ridden by a child whose legs don't come down below the saddle flaps?

It's taken me years to get my pony on the bit. Yes I'm crap. But how do they do it in 2 weeks?

Or am I just being naive? That pony came off the mountain 12 1/2 months ago?

And how did they get it's head to stay where it is now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely no idea! As I said before, we don't have ponies. Our horses are broken usually at the end of their third year and will be dressaging Jan/Feb/Mar, then hopefully doing novice classes during the showing season - usually 4 or 5. If a horse is exceptional, then it may do some open classes but generally not until the following year when they are more settled in their way of going. Each horse is different. Don't forget though, horse classes have a ride judge and therefore way of going cannot be disguised by the jockey as all will be revealed when the judge gets on.

Don't remember ever having one broken and winning within 2 weeks though!
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Slightly different question:

How do producers claim 'this 4yr old only came off the mountain/moor 2 weeks ago' and it is now trotting round the show ring in a perfect outline ridden by a child whose legs don't come down below the saddle flaps?

It's taken me years to get my pony on the bit. Yes I'm crap. But how do they do it in 2 weeks?

Or am I just being naive? That pony came off the mountain 12 1/2 months ago?

And how did they get it's head to stay where it is now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely no idea! As I said before, we don't have ponies. Our horses are broken usually at the end of their third year and will be dressaging Jan/Feb/Mar, then hopefully doing novice classes during the showing season - usually 4 or 5. If a horse is exceptional, then it may do some open classes but generally not until the following year when they are more settled in their way of going. Each horse is different. Don't forget though, horse classes have a ride judge and therefore way of going cannot be disguised by the jockey as all will be revealed when the judge gets on.

Don't remember ever having one broken and winning within 2 weeks though!

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the reply FMM

I often read such quoted comments in various mags and always think to myself
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<font color="blue"> I'm actually surprised that ALL of you showjumpers have taken time out from riding in draw reins </font>

Ah, you see we show-jump and are currently trying to persuade a lovely horse that it doesn't need to go in that dreadful and unacceptably overbent, broken-necked outline which takes her so far behind the bit it is difficult to ride her up to it - because she was ridden in those blastedly misused and diabolical things
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And I'm not in the least bit offended by your sweeping generalisation because we are not guilty!
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I know it was said tongue-in-cheek, but even if it wasn't...

Ours aren't clipped yet either. Most others have been done up to the insides of their ears - why???? - but ours are fit and until they are too warm and not drying off comfortably quickly they will keep their fur. Nor will it be removed from their backs as they don't need it off there either! I don't care who thinks they look a little 'untidy' - they are horses!
 
I went to HOYS last year and thought so many of the show horses looked really fat. I've tried to reserve judgement though, cos i'm used to thoroughbreds rather than show cobs so assumed they were just normal weight.
 
Brighteyes - that's brilliant that you don't use draw reins, and don't mis treat your showjumpers. Well done.
I have show horses - I don't use draw reins or mis treat them either.

But there are others out there that do. I know because I've seen. And just yesterday I was on a yard full of fully clipped out showjumpers - ears and all! They are all quite happy, but they are clipped and rugged. Clipped to keep them from getting sweaty and rugged to stop them from getting cold.

Show jumpers ARE guilty of those things. Showing people ARE guilty of (some) of those things. You have made several sweeping generalisations about showing to which people have said 'not guilty' and you've said 'yes you are!'

So what if my show horses are clipped? It's because they were too hot...don't really see what is wrong with that.
 
Why wouldn't you have clipped show jumpers by now? I don't get why its cruel to fully clip horses in full work, so long as they're rugged up enough and kept dry and warm.
 
[ QUOTE ]
It looks good?
Who in their right mind stares at horses ears?

[/ QUOTE ]

Who in their right mind thinks it looks good!!?? Neaten them up with the clippers by all means, but don't go inside, it looks awful!!

Although what do I know, mine is clipped already (despite being semi-retired) and his ribs have never seen the light of day
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Never stopped him hunting all day up at the front though!
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QR
I spent 10 months working for a top show pony producer, who has M&amp;Ms, WHPs, SHPs and SPs, and I can honestly say, hand on heart, her ponies were not subjected to what Munchkin insists happens at every top show pony yard.
Some of the ponies were fed the likes of barley and conditioning flakes, and some of them were then given a daily calmer, which I don't personally understand, but each to their own. They were rugged up, but never to the point of sweating. The only time the ponies ever wore sidereins was when being lunged, they were never left tacked up in any form in their stables. The ponies were all turned out, including the stallions, and they never had hay or water restricted. This particular producer rides/schools/hacks out all of the ponies herself, along with her groom, in order that the kids can ride them at shows, and the riders generally came for lessons with her. I can't say what happened at shows, because I stayed behind to do the rest of the yard whilst they were away. She took ponies in over the quieter months for starting, and everything was done slowly and with no quick fixes.
This producer's yard was/is an absolutely lovely yard, she had on average 17/18 ponies, plus a few older retirees of her own. The ponies were all happy, and they were out performing and achieving without the torture described in the OP.
I don't doubt that many of those things happen in some places, but just because it's all that you have experienced, it doesn't mean that it's "normal, everyday showing producing" across the board.
 
Just had another look at this after a night's sleep.

'morally deficent' ??????? LOL

So because I enjoy showing my coloured native pony, I'm morally deficent?

OP I looked at the first 2 points btw

[ QUOTE ]
Here is a short list of things I witnessed on a daily basis whilst being involved in the world of showing:

1. The one they all use, tying their ponies' heads in and leaving them in their stables 24/7 to "produce topline"
2. The other one they all use, over feeding to "produce topline"


[/ QUOTE ]

Again you use the word 'all'..................... Evidence please.
 
Janette, if I have to address that one more time, I will not be responsible for my actions! READ.

You go to the odd local show. I am blatently talking about top producers. Stop trying to make this about you and deflecting from the subject. You have added nothing of value to this discussion.

Last night I read a forum where producers were discussing these practises, and worse. Happy to send the link. But if you say "it's not all" one more time (I KNOW!) then I'll assume your purpose here is to feel like you are part of the showing clique and let's face it, you're incessant babbling is not doing them any favours.
 
[ QUOTE ]

To test my theory, reduce your horses' weights by, ooooh say 15% and see if they still win.

[/ QUOTE ]

If i took 15% of the weight off my ponies they would be all hips and ribs. My vet and may farrier, both of whom dislike showing are completly happy with my ponies weight and are inclined to tell me is a pony is looking chubby. Now my natives will tend to get a little portly in early spring when the grass is coming through but it soon comes off again with work. Normaly during show season whilst he is fit my connie does 5 to 6 hour hacks happily that include alot of fast work (very often not all that optional) and lots and lots of hills (well living in a mountian range means lots of steep hills). Most of the Time he is still pulling like a steam train when we get home and could probably go again.

My 26 yearold showpony does the same, infact he gets very very upset if you go out without him. He is actualy on the verge of being too thin and the VET has said he should not loose any more weight before winter. He has been hacked, done all PC activities including camp, regularly goes on beach rides, jumped, evented, done hunter trials, le trec,handy pony classes you name it he has probably given it a go at some stage. Oh and he has been used at the RDA because of his brilliant temprement.

He obviously is sooooo upset and stressed by this showing lark that when i put the ramp down on the lorry (parked in the field) he is in it like a shot. There doesnt even have to be any food or anything in there. It can be a bit of a pain to get him out of it unless you take him somewhere!

Thats a big bugbear of mine, i very often see showjumpers with horses that wont load and having seen the way they drive and throw the horses round in the back i am not suprised they wont load. Then instead of teaching the horse to go in nicely and that a lorry can be a pleasent experiance they beat the horse untilll it goe up the ramp.
All my horses walk in first time every time because they know nothing bad will happen. Infact all my horses will happily load themselves if i leave the ramp down and they spot it! the 12.2hh pony will even trot in!

Oh and yes when I was on 12.2hh ponies I could make him go correctly. I have a dragon dressage mother and she insisted thta all horses and ponies worked correctly at all times. I must say that in our local ponyclub i was one of the very few who even knew what an outline was, how to get one and was one of the very few who didnt want to chuck a pony at fences at every opportunity. I quit ponyclub after just one year because all of the rallys were jumping, there was not a single flat work one in the entire year.
Sorry but I realy think there are far more problems in showjumping then in showing.
 
Munchkin, I'd quite like to see that link. I'm familar with most showing forums (or so I thought!) and wasn't aware of any producers discussing such techniques.
 
Munchkin. You very blatently said ALL showing yards in your first post. ALL being the key word. Evidently We don't ALL use them and i can completely see why people are upset at your post. Slander and Libel sounds about right now.

You seem to delight in making sweeping statements, then belittling anyone who defends themselves from your accusations.

Also I have to ask if said producer only turned up once a week and her daughter wasnt there all that often then why did you continue to use those techniques?
If you were dismissed because you stood up against the methods then why did you not go for constructive dismissal? that would have brought it all out into the open. If you were so concerend why wait 2 years before putting it on a forum? why not warn others about said producer when you were sure it was happening?
2 years ago when you had been dismissed there was nothing else they could do to you then so why not let the world know then? why 2 years later and why accuse all showing yards of the practices?

Yes the link posted is one of FMM's, one she personaly rides quite often in the showring.
This is anouther one of hers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuZ3mXdBWRg&amp;feature=related

So yes i do think FMM has every right to be extremely offended by your post. Hers is one of the top showing yards in the country at the moment and she does NOT use any of those techniques. If she did ponies and hairy natives i'd happily send any of mine to her!

I also have to ask which forum you are on. I am on all the major showing forums including the subscription only ones and have never seen a post advocating those things. Condemning them yes but never advocaing them.
 
Munchkin can you show us the link to the forum where the producers are discussing this matter? Being on most showing forums cannot find the thread you mentioned.

Re Points 1 &amp; 2 in your first thread you are wrong, I have had ponies produced, I have been Head Girl to a yard that produced two Hoys Champions and none of those practices were employed at either yard and they are not used on my yard.....my connie is out with my partner at the moment checking on our sheep not in his stable with his head tied in or being force fed! So to making sweeping statements that all yards employ such practices is wrong.
 
I wasn't going to reply but then decided I would. I worked for Guy Landau - who at the time was easily one of the most succesful show riders and producers in the late 90s and I am very proud to say I worked for him.

I got to ride and caqre for some of the most prolific show horses at that time including Red Hand, Statesman, Tradesman and Man of Honour.

Those horses were produced correctly, they were tunred out everyday, they went hacking, hunting and even hunter trialing! They would be boxed to the gallops at Coombelands and do fast work.

The condition they were in was as the result of correct work, feeding and strapping - I was never was never slim as when I worked for Guy!

Not all yards are the same - it was a silly OP to make, you cannot tar everyone with the same brush.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Munchkin, I'd quite like to see that link. I'm familar with most showing forums (or so I thought!) and wasn't aware of any producers discussing such techniques.

[/ QUOTE ]
I must apologise, it's riders (and probably home producers) discussing other producers. Read it again
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Will PM the link
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It would have been sod them if they had said make him fatter.
Now, what I actually found offensive and bear with me-I've not had a glass of red and I don't care - is the way you posted tarring EVERYONE in the showing world with the same brush.
Now you are saying 90% would resort to cruel means...in the space of several posts you have lost 10% of the ALL SHOWING people you started with.
That's exactly the same as me saying that ALL of you that do dressage or have ever jumped a coloured pole are cruel and need investigating.
I am trying to point out that yes it happens but for you to say ALL is offensive, narrow minded and almost slanderous!
...and breath.....

[/ QUOTE ]


Totally and utterly agree!

[/ QUOTE ]

totally agree !!

know quite a few people who show to a high level especially welshes, they dont do any of the above, so that already makes your statement that they all do it incorrect

oh and we arent allowed to say some dont apparently i see further down, err freedom of speech to express our opinions/views is what this forum is for. thank you very much!
 
QR Could I see the link aswell please?

This thread is proof that arguments on H&amp;H go round in circles, and that the wording is obviously more important to most people than the content.... lol. I think the OP raised some very good points to be honest and obviously things like that DO happen, but maybe people don't really know about it.
 
Ah Conniegirl. You exhaust me.

[ QUOTE ]
Munchkin. You very blatently said ALL showing yards in your first post. ALL being the key word. Evidently We don't ALL use them and i can completely see why people are upset at your post. Slander and Libel sounds about right now.

[/ QUOTE ]
I have admitted time, and time, and time again throughout this discussion that this statement was incorrect, and attempted to clarify. Here are a couple of examples that due to either selective blindness or pure spite you've chosen to miss.
[ QUOTE ]
At that level I can honestly say I never met anyone who didn't practise points one and two. Not one person. And it is "the top" I'm talking about... I'm sure there are hobby riders with one or two ponies who get there through time and training (but I cannot imagine their ponies are a normal weight?) - I'm talking really about yards, producers, breeders, etc.

So, I'll agree to compromise at 95%

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I said, at the top level, I never met anyone who didn't. That is the truth.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
unfortunately my experience (less than two years ago) was at the very top level, and not limited to one yard. It certainly hasn't come from misguided forum posts or rumour - to be honest I wouldn't have believed half the things I saw if I'd read them!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet still, this is the only point from my first post that you can address. You still haven't answered my question, why isn't the showing world up in arms that these things go on? But I have a theory on that which I'll come to in a minute.

Here's your first response to me: [ QUOTE ]
To the OP what a total and utter load of rot. I'm offended and disgusted that you posted such total and utter rubbish, very obviously you have no idea what work goes on into producing a show horse and have probably taken a 3 legged nag into a ring and some poor judge has offended you by not placing it first.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, unlike others on here who were merely offended by my use of the word "all", you are actually denying these things go on, as was rockpaperscissors, in fact.

Then you contradicted yourself in the very next sentence with [ QUOTE ]
I wont deny that some of that probably does happen, but you would be blind and biased if you didnt think other disciplines had just as many problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know full well that cruelty is widespread across disciplines. I said so in my original post, however I must say that in years and years of involvement with show jumping I haven't seen nearly as much as I did in 10 months of showing. Irrelevant, however... I wanted to know why people weren't speaking out.

So, that brings me to my final point. I was thinking about this at the yard, and I realise that conniegirl, you have in fact inadvertently, singlehandedly, answered my question: [ QUOTE ]
Why all the fuss about dressage riders using Rollkur, show jumpers using draw reins, but not about this?

[/ QUOTE ] Because your discipline is full of people with your attitude.

Here's what I mean. Not once have you said gosh, if you've seen all of that stuff I'm ashamed of what can go on in this discipline and something should be done about it. You've retaliated by attacking show jumpers and accusing me of lying.

I've been heavily involved in SJ for a long time and can honestly say that the only two instances of malpractice I have ever seen first hand were a) a pony with its mouth held shut by a steel noseband and b) weighted boots (which personally I feel is more a method of cheating than cruelty).

However, I am absolutely not going to defend the sport against accusations made regarding the methods of cruelty that DO go on. Whilst people have this view that show jumpers are cruel, the people who have the power to do something about it (people at the top, with a voice) HAVE to act to protect the name of the sport and the people in it; to protect the welfare of the horses who provide their livelihood. This can only be a good thing, and is exactly what is happening.

If someone had started a thread here saying they'd worked on a SJ yard for ten months, seen the sort of cruelty I'd described and not met one rider who could work a horse using correct and kind training methods, I'd be furious that a) this was happening and b) these people were dragging down the name of the sport. I'd be demanding to know why the hell it was being allowed to happen and what was being done about it. Happily, that is currently the general feeling in the show jumping camp, and is the only way change will occur. I'm not directly involved in dressage but given the current media coverage I'd say a similar thing is happening there.

But while the people in the showing world who COULD be heard have the attitude "it's not everyone, I don't do it, in fact half of it's probably not true, and show jumping is worse anyway", nothing will ever change. And I find that really, really sad.
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Now to address a few more instances of your selective blindness:

[ QUOTE ]
Also I have to ask if said producer only turned up once a week and her daughter wasnt there all that often then why did you continue to use those techniques?

[/ QUOTE ]
<font color="red">[ QUOTE ]
Her daughter was on the yard every day (should probably point out that daughter is in 30's, not child) - K was in charge, and owned the ponies, the daughter would oversee what was doing on on a daily basis.


[/ QUOTE ] </font>
<font color="red">Please read post #5002369 for responses to all of your other points. </font>

[ QUOTE ]
So yes i do think FMM has every right to be extremely offended by your post. Hers is one of the top showing yards in the country at the moment and she does NOT use any of those techniques. If she did ponies and hairy natives i'd happily send any of mine to her!

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, FMM has provided me with some useful information and has contributed quite even-mindedly to the discussion.

[ QUOTE ]
I am on all the major showing forums including the subscription only ones and have never seen a post advocating those things. Condemning them yes but never advocaing them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I said discussing. Not advocating. Stop twisting.
In fact, the people involved in this discussion were utterly disgusted by these practises, which I admit started to improve my opinion of showing enormously! They were, on the whole, advocates of correct riding and dressage methods of flatwork schooling. Happy days! Then I came back here, and you changed my opinion back.
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But it did back up my point that these things are still happening on the showground and nobody is doing anything to stop them.

I hope I have answered all of your points (again). Please read slowly and carefully, as I'm a little bored of repeating myself (and have other things to do).
 
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