There's so much fuss about Rollkur etc but...

I have nothing to do with showing but I've been involved in possibly more areas of the horse industry than most people on here ("American" hunters, dressage, eventing, show jumping, racing, western/AQHA, Arabs, Connemaras, a bit of driving . . .) from "grassroots" to top end International winners and I have seen good and bad in all. I'd say, from my personal experience, there are two factors affecting abusive practices in horse sports (and everything else in life, I suspect).

One, individual personality. Some people are just b*******s. Plain and simple. If they didn't hurt their horses they'd kick their dogs or hit their kids or gang up on the slightly different kid on the school ground. They are bullies, through and through. They feel success comes through force, although I suspect in most cases they actually enjoy the force on some level and then justify it by "excusing" it as necessary to success.

Two, lack of ability/wherewithal to make the top grade. The worst I've seen are people who are "just good enough" to be not completely useless but who lack the resources to make that step up and they're angry, frustrated and blaming anyone they can - usually other than themselves - for their failings. They often want to do things more cheaply/faster than they can really be done and often, life being unfair sometimes, have just enough success to allow them to justify their moral failings as necessary evils. Unfortunately horses are easy victims because they don't withdraw their custom or call the authorities.

And in that way of life, like attracts like. I've seen "nice" owners send horses to people they've been warned repeatedly about and in the end I have to conclude they really aren't that nice.

And I have to say, I've seen as much bad on "happy hacker" yards where people justify and excuse their practices by saying they "love" their horses but simply "can't" do things the way they should be done for whatever reason. I'm not sure in a weird way that's worse than ignoring what's right in the name of ambition.

And just to have a mini rant for a sec, I HATE that these conversations so often turn into "all showjumpers do blah, blah, blah" or "all "xxxs" and cowards/crazy/spoiled/stupid. That, by the way, is discrimination. I have met many people in many areas of horses and I have to say, the great horsemen in any group have far more in common than they have keeping them apart. They love horses, they love riding and they are consumed by their passion. The next few tiers down, most are lovely, some . . . well, see my original points above.

The fact is a great deal of what we do with horses is NOT in their best interests, strictly speaking. Firstly, sitting on them. They are suspension bridges not load bearing mechanisms (built for their weight to hang from their spines, not for weight to be carried from above) and it's their bad luck they have a spot for a saddle. But this is what they are "for" now and we've - hopefully - bred and produced ones that can do the job. But it carries and ethical obligation for us - all of us - to do our best. I agree it's important to examine and hopefully eradicate "accepted" abusive practices but I also think if more people gave OBJECTIVE, unemotional thought to how they can improve the lives of the horses around them, that might be a good thing, too.

Hmm, too much coffee for me this morning, it seems.
smile.gif
 
Ditto Tarr Steps. I have been fortunate to work for an Olympic three day eventer and have a top horse at a top show yard. Both yards are caring and professional with the time to do things properly and the knowledge and ability to do things well. Both turn horses out, hack out, jump/hunt the horses for a change etc etc. To produce and show a horse properly is an art and how lucky the above poster was to have worked for Guy Landau.
 
[ QUOTE ]

I've seen "nice" owners send horses to people they've been warned repeatedly about and in the end I have to conclude they really aren't that nice.



[/ QUOTE ]

I think this comment sums up why it is so hard to make sure all horses are being treated well.
Some owners want to win at any cost.
 
[ QUOTE ]
OMG!!! How horrible!! I've always regarded showing as for those who are not skilled enough for SJ, patient enough for Dressage, brave enough for XC or mad enough for Eventing! I hate seeing those prissy little brats at shows in matching tweed with their slaves (sometimes referred to as mothers) and pigtails done up with ribbons and the tears that inevitably fall if a red rosette is not achieved... YEUCH!

***Sorry to all showers, nothing personal but I'm opinionated and that's my opinion***

[/ QUOTE ]

That's simply too far!
 
Of course it is. And no sensible person who understands anything about riding and showing agrees. Why take such an opinion seriously? As above, it's been my experience that people who hold those sorts of views are rarely admirable in their own fields anyway, which was sort of my original point.
smile.gif
 
I'm a bit confused . . . is that the person quoted above? If so, presumably the point is she does ride well but she's still very young . . .
 
At the risk of repeating myself - there are some horror stories and equally shocking owners/perpetrators. I did not say ALL!
wink.gif
smile.gif
Those who do it properly, stick to their guns and refuse to show 'over-everything' ponies and horses should be applauded and placed above the blimps and false outlines etc. I feel like a stuck record and all those outraged innocents should pipe down as I'm not talking about you! If you are guilty of producing fat horses, sweating them to bits in 500 rugs and all the other ridiculous things people get up to - in the name of vanity and money, then I am not apologising for causing offence.

Until it is illegal to do any of the things hinted at and described, then they will continue to be done. It causes me much sorrow to learn how disposable some show ponies and horses seem to be, with little consideration for their futures beyond the show-ring in too many cases.
frown.gif
 
wow, TarrSteps, just wow.
i have never thought about such things, being in my own little bubble of deliberate naivety most of the time, but i think you are right on the money there. i've often wondered why so many horsey people (and for some reason some top trainers and riders) seem to HATE horses, and i think you've just turned a big light on in my head...
poor horses. shame they can't call the authorities... or, when concerned people call the authorities on their behalf, shame that the authorities aren't always keen on doing anything about it...
 
<font color="blue">ALL of your post </font>

You aren't guilty of the abuse we are saying does happen nor having fatties, so why are you protesting?

We showjump (amongst other things) and it breaks my heart to see the stuff that goes on in front of everyone and even worse, thinking about that being the tip of the iceberg.

I'm not outraged by being lumped in with them because I know we aren't. We are waaaaay too kind to ours. They are never never overjumped, at home or out. We untack and dismount and do all manner of very unshowjumper-ish things because to MY MIND it's kinder to the horse to have nosebands loosened, boots off and so on between rounds, but lots don't.

BUT I hold my hand up and say it goes on in our discipline. Why deny it - or knowledge of it, and get all uppity? There are shocking stories and the most appalling things done to horses to get them to win or punish them for not doing. I'm not guilty so I'm not in the slightest bit bothered about generalisations.

I also don't believe that those at the very top have no idea what goes on. Don't be silly. The horse world is notorious for its gossip and bad-mouthing and fables, just as it is famous for the geniuses and superstars. It's the dumbass people with mediocre horses fooling themselves they can achieve greatness by doing these dreadful things. All they are is cruel and deluded. And their animals suffer dreadfully at their hands.
 
I agree. But I also think those who can be heard, those who are respected figures at the top end of these disciplines, should not be attempting to brush things under the carpet or deny them completely. Whilst your own horses should remain your priority, that doesn't mean to say the cruelty happening around you doesn't matter.
 
I'm another who has a horse on a top producers yard. She had two horses at HOYS this year amongst other fantastic successes...
All of the horses on the yard are turned out daily, hacked out, jumped, schooled, loved, cuddled, pampered, spoilt rotten, fed and rugged appropriately, well shod.... etc. etc. etc.

Thay are all happy, healthy and completely adored by everybody on the yard! The YO in question has done wonders with my boy and with my confidence, I have gone from being scared stiff of hacking to hacking with other horses on roads and open spaces, jumping and schooling with much improved confidence and way of going, and we have only been there two months. I can not wait for next season! He is looking fit, healthy, bright eyed and is maturing into a fantastic well rounded 5yo!

Also, the people I bought my horse from also had ponies at HOYS this year, four I think it was, and are very well known in the native pony circles. Their yard is not only a producing yard but also a riding school and livery yard. 90% of the time their ponies are turned out, covered in mud, bombing across the country side being hacked out by kids and having a fantastic life... even their top stallions!

No doubt these things do happen. But I'm shocked that people actually believed the OP's statements of 'ALL' showing people do these things! I know you've apologised for making such sweeping statements but there is an element of shutting the door after the horses has bolted here, please excuse the pun. Sadly some people will believe what they read and we all know how quickly chinese whispers spread. Perhaps OP, you should hold your tongue in future and not be so blatently proud of causing controversy without a care... as that was what you clearly set out to do. And it seems that your more sober head the next day had you fiercely back peddling.

Your old employer was clearly a disgrace to the showing community but I still stand by the fact they were among the minority! Without evidence or witnessing it, all we can do is not practice these methods ourselves and continue to care for our animals... other than this, it is down to those who witness these cruelties first hand to act upon it!

On a seperate note, I have witnessed cruelty when I had my horse stabled at an international showjumpers yard, whos name I'm sure you would all know if I were to mention it (which I won't as I'm not into public mud slinging), to both the horses and other animals, and I did report it and remove my horse from the yard... it wasn't difficult.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps OP, you should hold your tongue in future and not be so blatently proud of causing controversy without a care

[/ QUOTE ] I disagree with this - if the OP feels strongly about an issue then she shouldn't have to hold her tongue.

HOWEVER, I do think she should think very carefully about what she is writing and try and put her points across clearly without blanket generalisations, so her concerns can be taken seriously and so she can get people on her side, rather than against her.

I agree this is best done whilst cold stone sober though!
tongue.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
On a seperate note, I have witnessed cruelty when I had my horse stabled at an international showjumpers yard, whos name I'm sure you would all know if I were to mention it (which I won't as I'm not into public mud slinging), to both the horses and other animals, and I did report it and remove my horse from the yard... it wasn't difficult.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually think that is the wrong thing to do. Not sure you could talk about it on here as possibly defamatory, but IMO, making people aware of who the bad guys are is the only responsible thing to do. Its not about mud slinging, its about looking out for the welfare of the horse, and warning other people so that they don't make the same mistake you did. For every person that knows about this kind of cruelty, thats one person less to spend money on a lesson, or to send a horse to that name. It might not ruin them, but keeping quiet on what you've witnessed only helps them continue that cruelty unchecked.
 
Perhaps I should have worded that better TGM, by hold their tongue I didn't mean don't say anything at all I just meant perhaps put the point across in a more civilised, less accusatory manner in order to perhaps not cause so much controversy. Perhaps slightly less 'bull in china shop'
tongue.gif
would have resulted in a more supportive response rather than upsetting people. From the original post it seems that all the OP set out to do was cause controversy, rather than raise awareness sensibly about something that, if true, really does need to be people's attention, not just p!$$ people off...

xspiralx, I did what I needed to do and reported them to the authorities that could deal with it, but no I don't think it is right to speak about it on here. I only mentioned it to illustrate that it isn't beyond the realms of possibility to act upon what you have seen and be listened to. Hopefully if what the OP has seen is true, which I'm not doubting as I think there are cases of cruelty in all disciplines, it might give them the courage to stand up for what they believe in.

I have encountered a handful of 'professionals' behaving in less than a professional manner and I have notified a few people via PM that have mentioned them and been considering sending their horse to them... so hopefully I have saved some horses from experiencing what I have seen.

Hope that is more clear
smile.gif
 
OK, have been resisting from posting on this thead until now (been ducking the bric bats from allsides) but I have to put my point across.... not all showing yards (or pro yards) are cruel but at the end of the day he who pays the piper calls the tune, people send horses to pro yards ( and especially pro showing yards) to get results, and to get that HOYS ticket, and 99% turn a blind eye to the methods involved.
Yes, I can speak from experience as I have worked on a showing yard for one of the big 'names'. We were (and they still are) in horses, not pony showing but several dubious (and animal welfare unfriendly) practices definately occurred.

The main one is vast overfeeding:, horses on limited turnout ( leg stretch only), little haylage and bucket after bucket of hard feed, barley &amp; oats; not surprisingly ho hum laminitis occurs and the horse is returned to its owner in disgrace as not suitable for production in a professional yard.

Horses that have come down the line all season suddenly appearing on the yard before the last few HOYS qualifiers, we did nothing with them bar feed them, stick them on a horse walker &amp; hack them out fir an hour daily,\no schoolig,\no nothing and suddenly they have their magical ticket with the 'name' rider on board, hey presto at HOYS little miss no name is back on board again!

These owners pay a fortune to have their show horse professionaly produced by a 'name'. What they didn't realise is that the 'name' spent all day gardening and never once sat on a horse at home, only hopping on at shows to take the glory: So what are owners paying for?? Hard feed, half an hour on the walker per day, an hours hacking in draw reins by a groom (if the horse is lucky), and some shaved heels &amp; a bath!

So...cautionary word of warning.... if your horse is professionaly produced do you ever just 'pop over'... what do you actually get for your money or is it all about the name???

... now going to duck and run...
 
Top