Thermography v Scintigraphy?

EQUISCENE

EQUISCENE

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My horse needs further investigation and I would prefer to go a non invasive route first also concerned that scintigraphy will only show up bone problems rather than soft tissue injuries when I understand that thermography will show all hot spots..

Any experiences/comments would be appreciated.
 
As I understand it the radioactive markers used in scintigraphy are taken up by areas that are undergoing repair - I don't think this is necessarily limited to bone.

What I do know is for scintigraphy to be successful, then the area of the problem must be known. If there is some debate or uncertainty over where the problem originates from then it may be better to go with thermography.

With thermography, is it possible to distinguish between a heat source caused by recent injury, and that that is healing and going though the stages of repair? I would also be interested to know which method would be better for deep seated injuries, say within the pelvis, where layers of muscle may overly the problem area. Would thermography be able to provide a suitably sensitive image to aid diagnosis in this situation?

Not much help really but I am very interested in both methods.

What does your vet and/or physio recommend?
 
Thanks for the FB link very interesting

This is a vet referral thermal imaging hasnt been offered/discussed I am interested in finding out more about it before I commit to scintigraphy (Would thermography be able to provide a suitably sensitive image to aid diagnosis in this situation? ) This was my thought -as it would justify the difference in cost!
 
As stated above, scintigraphy is generally assessed in 2 phases - initially a soft tissue phase, and then a bone phase - and therefore can be very effective in diagnosing the REGION of a soft tissue injury ( which may then be more specifically investigated by other modalities e.g ultrasonography /MRI etc.)
Difficult to justify the science behind thermography however I appreciate that some owners have great faith in it.
I would be inclined to go down the more scientific route (i.e scintigraphy) if your vet feels that this is the most useful aid to diagnosis.
As far as 'invasive' is concerned, scintigraphy is not really any more invasive than any other intra-venous medication - however the clearing of radioctive particles from the patient may take some days.
Hope this helps.
 
my horse has recently had both done (yes whopping great vets bill as both were full body) both were non invasive and was sedated for scintigraphy and he had to stay in horspital for 4 days for that one. my horse is believed to have a pelvic ligament injury/strain-well his movement and lameness is a dead ringer for a problem in this area, however, unfortunately, neither the thermography or scintigraphy showed anything in this area. very annoying. as i thought at least something would show up on one of them. i have now turned my horse away for the winter. i believe its unusal for a pelvic injury not to show on bone scan but nothing on mine
 
Very interesting post. Im waiting for treatment on my mares continuous abcess before I go to Dursley for skintigraphy on a shoulder lameness. Will watch with interest.
 
A client called in one of the thermal imaging services to 'inspect' a horse she was buying (it passed!) While the worman was on the yard, I got her to look at a horse of mine with obscure slight lameness. The pics showed a clear area of inflammation in the coffin joint area - as well as some smaller areas of heat in back area. For comparison, I then got her to aim camera at my stallion who has known coffin joint arthritis - it showed up clearly - exactly same area but slightly more severe than the first horse.

On what I saw, I would think it is certainly a useful tool for isolating an area of pain/inflammation - and not THAT expensive. I got some good, clear pictures which I then showed to my vet. I think it was about £50 for a full body 'examination'.
 
EQUISCENE said:
Thanks everyone - I am grateful for the feedback.

Janet if poss please can you pm me the contact details for the person who visited your yard?
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I THINK it was these people - http://www.theinnerpicture.com/index.htm

It was a few years ago and I didn't organise it - so wouldn't swear to it - but reasonably confident!

Be aware they are NOT qualified to diagnose - your vet needs to look at the pictures and consider what they show in conjunction with the horse's history and the vet's physical examination. But if you look at the 'images' page on the website, you will see just how clearly they show areas of inflammation. I'm actually surprised more vets don't use them.
 
I am a big fan of thermography. I had never heard of it but had a free session with a friend's sister who is training to be an equine physio and has got very expensive new equipment.

My 8 month old filly was lame and I couldnt decide whether she was footsore or injured her pastern. There was no heat to the touch. I am so glad I had it done now. The pictures showed up a hot spot on the pastern which ended up being a bone cyst. The xrays showed the hole in her bone was in exactly the same spot as on the thermal photo and even my vet is converted. My filly was booked in for surgery within 4 weeks of being lame and is now hopefully well on the road to recovery.

I also had a problem with my riding horse who was leaping when I schooled her which I thought was behavioural. The camera showed up a hot spot on her back which indicated that the saddle was pinching when she was on a left bend. I changed my saddle and it is like having a new horse. Poor thing was obviously being pinched when I was on a left circle. The camera could even photograph the saddle if it was taken off quickly and show where it was touching the horse so could check how well it was fitting.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
 
[Be aware they are NOT qualified to diagnose - your vet needs to look at the pictures and consider what they show in conjunction with the horse's history and the vet's physical examination. But if you look at the 'images' page on the website, you will see just how clearly they show areas of inflammation. I'm actually surprised more vets don't use them.']
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Thanks Janet - you are most helpful it would be my intention to take the images if possible to my vet as he has just xrayed hocks and although nothing significant showed on the xrays he didnt rule out possible cartilage problems, it would be great if we were able to get some confirmation that we are at least looking in the right area!
 
saddlebred said:
My 8 month old filly was lame and I couldnt decide whether she was footsore or injured her pastern. There was no heat to the touch. I am so glad I had it done now. The pictures showed up a hot spot on the pastern which ended up being a bone cyst. The xrays showed the hole in her bone was in exactly the same spot as on the thermal photo and even my vet is converted. My filly was booked in for surgery within 4 weeks of being lame and is now hopefully well on the road to recovery.
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Yep - that's the beauty of it. Let's face it, with a slight lameness and no heat or swelling, it's very hard to narrow it down - and x-raying every possibility can be very expensive as you need several views of foot and each joint. The camera tells you where to start!

it would be my intention to take the images if possible to my vet as he has just xrayed hocks and although nothing significant showed on the xrays he didnt rule out possible cartilage problems, it would be great if we were able to get some confirmation that we are at least looking in the right area!
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Yep - x-rays don't show everything. I wish I could win the lottery - I'd be buying myself one! With the number of horses I have, I reckon I could save a bomb on vet's fees - as it would show up - say - a foot abcess as most likely when horse is telling me he's got a broken leg!:rolleyes:
 
Bertthefestivefrog said:
Where's Imogen Burrows when you need her?!:D
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:D Arrived - sorry a bit late!!! ;)

EQUISCENE said:
My horse needs further investigation and I would prefer to go a non invasive route first also concerned that scintigraphy will only show up bone problems rather than soft tissue injuries when I understand that thermography will show all hot spots..

Any experiences/comments would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

Keflavik said:
As stated above, scintigraphy is generally assessed in 2 phases - initially a soft tissue phase, and then a bone phase - and therefore can be very effective in diagnosing the REGION of a soft tissue injury ( which may then be more specifically investigated by other modalities e.g ultrasonography /MRI etc.)
Difficult to justify the science behind thermography however I appreciate that some owners have great faith in it.
I would be inclined to go down the more scientific route (i.e scintigraphy) if your vet feels that this is the most useful aid to diagnosis.
As far as 'invasive' is concerned, scintigraphy is not really any more invasive than any other intra-venous medication - however the clearing of radioctive particles from the patient may take some days.
Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

Keflavik's quote I'd totally agree with. I have little faith in thermography as it is the more sensitive imaging technique of the two....so I worry that it can easily be over interpreted and false problems detected. There is a lot of work done in both now though so just as there are acceptable hot spots in scinitigraphy I assume there are such areas which would be "ignored" rather than over interpreted by vets using thermography regularly in the same way.

I would opt of scintigraphy as I believe there is more scientific basis and consistency to the results in this imaging modality but to be fair I am biased as I have little to no experience with thermography. I believe Chris Colles at Avonvale vets is a great user of thermography....

The radioactive isotope used is harmless to the horse overall, but the horse will stay in isolation until it is all excreted before going home. We do't use this a first line techniques unless we can't get near the horse with needles or at the owners request, but it can be helpful.

Just as with every technique though there is no guarantee with the interpretation and longstanding problems can be an issue if they are not actively inflammed or undergoiing tissue remodelling as this is where the isotopes gather and therefore cause "hot spots".

Be aware these are just tools to facilitate localisation of the problem - diagnosis may still require more invasive techniques.....:rolleyes:

Best of luck
Imogen
 
There is a company called equiscan who use medical grade thermography cameras. The results are then sent off to America for interpretation. The medical camera has been calibrated so it is not influenced by other heat sources in the near area.

I also think that when looking at the images it is often as important to look at the areas with no circulation (blue) as it is to look at the hot spots.

I have had good experiences with the camera - it highlighted hindlimb psd in my dressage horse (totally sound and still winning) and I have also used it regularly for fitting my saddles however I have also known cases where it has missed a problem.
 
Thanks everyone your comments have been really helpful. I have decided to have the thermography done first and have arranged an appointment for Wed (cannot get out of here with the lorry at present to get to the Equine Hospital anyway). It would be my best Christmas present ever if I could get some indication of the area of my lads' problem!
 
mine had a full body scintagraphy at the cost of £1000 and it highlighted kissing spines, navicular and bone spavins, my only concern with getting a thermo done is that you find something and ask the vets to investigate it further and they want a scintigraphy done to confirm the problem areas.
Mine had the scintigraphy and stayed at the hospital for an extra 2 days for trot ups and x-rays of the affected areas then injections in the hocks and spine. for the scintigraphy they stay there for 3 days and are in isolation for 48 hours once radioactive so the radioactive isotope is out of there system when you pick them up.
 
Knowing where to start to get a diagnosis is half the battle in my opinion.

I've used thermal imaging to narrow down the 'search' area on horses and dogs. It hasn't failed yet! In fact, on my horse it not onliy highlighted where the primary problem (in his back) was, but also highlighted a secondary hoof balance problem, which was causing poor posture and in fact exacerbating the back issue. Changing farrier and some physio, and we're back jumping freely again. It's very useful for backs - which I find many vets tend to refer to osteopaths / chiropractors and physios. It allows you and vet to keep an eye on how well things are progressing and keeps a visual record.

You can over diagnose from it though, it'll show everything, even 'problems' that the horse copes really well with. The lady that came out to me joked that she'd be turned-away if thermal imaged, but copes perfectly fine with her dodgy knee and shoulder! Horses can be the same. It has to be used in conjunction with a clinical examination, full history etc...

Use a reputable company to avoid this overdiagnosis, one that works with your vet and produces full reports for them to use in their diagnosis, not some 'quack'! Also, I don't think that these 'send the pictures to an office somewhere around the world' for interpretation services are much cop. I wouldn't pay for this - who can diagnose a horse when they haven't even seen it and done a basic clinical examination?! Surely this can lead to misdaignosis, or worse still owners keeping their vet out of the loop. UK vets are the best trained in the world, they're more than capable of interpreting the images, it's only pointing out where to look afterall.

I used a company called Veterinary Thermal Imaging. They are RCVS approved.
 
Just to let you know that Clare Ellam (the inner picture) came and took some images of my horse yesterday, hopefully following her visit we can investigate further an area which has been highlighted - I will post any significant developments!
 
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