Thieving Scumbag Facebook shoplifters- Rant follows

lizzie_liz said:
Therefore it could be argued you are taking pictures of them and putting them on the internet without their permission.
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Having just had this discussion on another forum - a photographer has every right to take someone's photo in a public space (ie: somewhere open to the general public if they saw fit to go there) Smiths Lawn would be a fantastic example (in terms of a competition venue).

And the person in said photo has no right whether legally or morally to the photo either.
 
figbat said:
No offence is being committed by posting pictures of people. Believe it or not, I don't need your permission to take your picture in a public place and to publish it at will. Do you think the paparazzi and tabloids ask permission of their victims? Whilst equestrian events are generally held on private land, the fact that they are open to public access defines them as a public place with respect to privacy laws.

Copyright theft, on the other hand, IS illegal. It's no different from pirated software or unauthorised DVD copying.
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Actually i beg to differ.....you cannot publish photographs of children under the age of 16 in any newspaper or magazine without the written consent of their parent or guardian...
The internet is simply another publishing tool, so photographers should in fact tread very carefully here....
 
Mike007 said:
There is another side to all this too,since photographers are effectively placing images taken of people,without their prior consent on the internet for the entire world to see,and for third parties also to copy..
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This is a genuine question that has puzzled and confused me over the years, if my children's school wants to put images of my kids on their Internet website they have to ask for parental permission, how come I can find pics of all my kids on equine photographers websites without my permission being asked?
 
bogpony said:
Actually i beg to differ.....you cannot publish photographs of children under the age of 16 in any newspaper or magazine without the written consent of their parent or guardian...
The internet is simply another publishing tool, so photographers should in fact tread very carefully here....
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That's actually a view that's held incorrectly. It may be advisable but it's not legally required.

I do however agree that in today's climate it is a sensitive issue and if anyone wanted me to remove images of them from the site I would do it without question. I'd also make a point of not taking more images of them in the future :)

http://www.sirimo.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/ukphotographersrights-v2.pdf
 
This is an area where the law,including copyright law ,is behind the times.I suspect it will have to be addressed some time within the next ten years.My advice to you photographers is not to rock the boat because sometimes what seems to be the most trivial of legal actions ,turns the law on its head.
 
Mike007 said:
This is an area where the law,including copyright law ,is behind the times.I suspect it will have to be addressed some time within the next ten years.My advice to you photographers is not to rock the boat because sometimes what seems to be the most trivial of legal actions ,turns the law on its head.
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Which Areas of the law are behind the times and why?
 
It strikes me that the reason there is this divide between the expectations of "customers" and photographers is that the price of photos is not commercially viable. I am in complete agreement that spending an entire day taking photos and only selling a few is not worthwhile but from a competitors point of view I would not pay £15 per photo or the like when I can take my video camera along. I would pay £3/£4 a photo and there is a photographer around us who charges this and I always but from him as I appreciate he is keeping his costs down at a manageable price for customers.

Perhaps different pricing structures are needed - more at "special" shows where competitors will pay regardless ie HOYS, RIHS, major champs in all disciplines, and then a lower price at "normal" events? Otherwise I think the job is just not financially viable.

The issue of people taking photos is of course not right but I genuinely think that many people do not see the whole picture and feel that the prices many photographers charge put the photographers somehow in the wrong. Before you shoot me down I don't personally agree with this but I think many others do.
 
The other thing I would mention is that the price of printing a photo on the day has gone down now every things digital! I remember when at shows the van used to have a whole developing lab in it! All photos were printed and put outside and you just picked what you liked out and paid. Now the machines are just almost like home printers, which is fine, but some companies use very cheap paper and inks and the quality is terrible and the pics fade out within a few months. They then still charge £10 on average per photo. The worst for this round here are MHphotos (terrible quality). Captures photography also have awful prints and can never seem to get the colours right.
 
bogpony said:
Actually i beg to differ.....you cannot publish photographs of children under the age of 16 in any newspaper or magazine without the written consent of their parent or guardian...
The internet is simply another publishing tool, so photographers should in fact tread very carefully here....
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Once again, I bring up the newspaper analogy. Have you ever seen photographs of the Beckhams, Bradjolina or Madonna with their kids in the press? If not you have been avoiding the press. You can bet that permission was neither requested nor given.

It is right to say that in today's climate there is a heightened sensitivity to photographing minors, and photographers would do well to stay on the right side of the moral debate, but I fail to see how this whole argument is somehow a reason for photographers to not to publish and sell their wares though the quickest and most convenient medium there is. Mike stated (in paraphrase) that personal image publication is a crime and copyright theft is an annoyance, when in truth the opposite is true.
 
Okay Mr Spidge.....i have a possible solution that should prevent 99% of the people who are currently ripping you off. Obviously the really determined (and technically aware) can probably find a way around it but i think the sort of people you are currently having the biggest problems with are young kids ?

Anyway, this code will work for Internet Explorer....but can be adapted to work for all other browsers too.

At the top of each page, simply disable the clipboard by adding the following line to your html :-

< B O D Y o n l o a d = s e t I n t e r v a l ( " w i n d o w . c l i p b o a r d D a t a . c l e a r D a t a ( ) " , 3 0 ) >

You will need to remove the extra spaces that i have inserted to allow it to be displayed on this forum.

You will obviously need to retain your existing right-click disablement and other protections that you have in place.

Hope this helps....and remind me, who should i send the invoice too ;)

P.S. If anyone else can see any obvious ways around this protection or likewise then please do let me know as i have other 'options' up my sleeve too...but from my tinkerings thus far i have found no simpler yet more effective method.
 
I know for PC if you sign the entry form you are agreeing to be photographed, no signature no entry.

Never seen that for BE though so assume it's a free for all.
 
Natalia I am surprised that you don't like MHphotos pictures and think that. Mark takes very good pictures and occasionally works for me if he is available. Drop him an email or PM me and I'll pass on your thoughts. As far as I am aware he uses the identical model of printer to me. I know you like our pictures because you told me xxx so I am intrigued why your perceptions i are so different in comparison. I also know what kit he uses.

Can you give me more details please- preferably not on an open forum. I have no knowledge of the other company you refer to and it would not be my place to comment.

Regarding investment in equipment- there are a lot of hidden costs that you are probably not aware of. Let's start with the camera and lens at £4k...
 
Rambo said:
Okay Mr Spidge.....i have a possible solution that should prevent 99% of the people who are currently ripping you off. Obviously the really determined (and technically aware) can probably find a way around it but i think the sort of people you are currently having the biggest problems with are young kids ?

Anyway, this code will work for Internet Explorer....but can be adapted to work for all other browsers too.

At the top of each page, simply disable the clipboard by adding the following line to your html :-

< B O D Y o n l o a d = s e t I n t e r v a l ( " w i n d o w . c l i p b o a r d D a t a . c l e a r D a t a ( ) " , 3 0 ) >

You will need to remove the extra spaces that i have inserted to allow it to be displayed on this forum.

You will obviously need to retain your existing right-click disablement and other protections that you have in place.

Hope this helps....and remind me, who should i send the invoice too ;)

P.S. If anyone else can see any obvious ways around this protection or likewise then please do let me know as i have other 'options' up my sleeve too...but from my tinkerings thus far i have found no simpler yet more effective method.
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Interesting and thanks for the response. Payment in photos OK? :-)

I'll PM you as I have other questions and am just about to change my gallery creation software.
 
Regarding taking photos of kids, in 4 years of active event photography covering athletics, proms, netball, theatre productions, studio and portrait work at an event, equestrian, martial arts, football and rugby I have never had a single parent ask me not to take pictures of their child.

I have a very simple ethic and guiding principle- that the composition of the photo should always be appropriate to the sport. We will always delete or remove photos on request, if only to prevent embarrassment to the rider/ competitor. After all why upset potential customers. At an equestrian event such as dressage or showjumping if a rider does not want or require photos for whatever reason, they simply have to let me know and I'll oblige.
 
[. Mike stated (in paraphrase) that personal image publication is a crime and copyright theft is an annoyance, when in truth the opposite is true.[/QUOTE]

No thats not quite what I said.No its not a statute offence at the moment, to take pictures without someones permision and post them on the internet.It is however In my opinion an invasion of privacy.This is the area I refered to,where I believe the law is behind the times and will ultimately change.It is the element of ,lack of control of the image once it is displayed which concerns me most. It is clear to me from some of the posts,that various photographers have not taken sufficient care to protect and retain control of these images.Yet they seek to use copyright law to protect their profits.The whole concept of "duty of care" arises and I do wonder exactly how legal these photo,s are in common law.
 
George Michie said:
The one's you're speaking about there are competition but they're proper firms. They're taking the chance (which is increased through technology) on the tog getting the shots but if the model works for them more strength to the shutter finger :) It still doesn't make it right that if they have the images online, watermarked, that they get lifted without paying.

The guy/girl coming out to an event and sending on a few images to riders because they know them or get asked for them really isn't an issue, for me anyway. Personally, I've helped a few people asking for hints or tips on how to get the best out of their equipment and been pleased to do so :) You never know, that person might be the next big photographer anyway and everyone has to make a start somewhere. Might as well help them as they might have a job going in the future :p

It's more than just photographer performance here, and technology changes, it's also customer expectation and attitude. If riders went into the tack shop and lifted a bridle without paying for it (which they'd never dream of doing :) ) they'd be prosecuted. For some reason because it's a digital file it's alright to take it without paying.

By the way, I've just entered Burghley ;)
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I haven't read all through the replies so apologies if this has been asked and answered. I'd also like to say that the only thing I've ever envied in another person is their ability to take a great photo :D.

May I ask a question ?

If you take a photo of a horse and rider and somebody NOT affiliated to the horse or rider buys it (cause they like the picture) - do you have to pay the rider and / or horses owner commission for using their image?

I was asked that years ago and I've never got my head around the answer :D
 
The main problem as people said is that pro togs are up against joe bloggs who takes his new slr camera to a show. Yes he may get a shot of you going over the fence, but invariably the photographer if they are established enough, will get the better shot. What we now have to do is try to get places where spectators cannot- so that means going into the depths of the xc course on a tricky to get to fence and setting up camp all day ;) Or in the sj ring where inevitably spectators will get other fences in the way.

There are of course some pro photographers who are downright useless!!! I have been to shows where the pro photos are out of focus, over saturated, wrong timing etc. I was at one show a few months back where the photographer was sat on the side of the ring, took a photo every now and then but missed all the fantastic shots.

The reason why prices are still fairly high, £10 for a 9x6 is about average down here, is because the photographer normally either pays to be at the show or donates to the show for being allowed to shoot there, then there's staffing costs, equipment costs (my kit is about £2500 worth and far from the best model you can get... and every tog has to fund that themselves). Plus petrol to get there, web hosting doesn't come cheap, it all mounts up. I have had competitors look down upon me, be rude, try to run me over, demand that there will be no photos taken of them, generally think they have more right to be there than I do... I have also been told off by organisers for helping someone when they had a nasty fall and I was the only person in the ring at the time. Then for someone to nick photos, well that's the final straw ;)
 
Okay....further to my post above...can all you techno savvy people see if you can find a way to get a copy of the photo of Billy Congo (taken on my £99 digital camera by me i might add!) on the webpage below :-

http://www.krk.me.uk/test.html

If you can get a copy of it, then to prove it, modify it some obvious way and re-post the link to your 'stolen' version.

No prizes i'm afraid....but might keep you entertained for a while...
 
Rambo said:
Okay....further to my post above...can all you techno savvy people see if you can find a way to get a copy of the photo of Billy Congo (taken on my £99 digital camera by me i might add!) on the webpage below :-

http://www.krk.me.uk/test.html

If you can get a copy of it, then to prove it, modify it some obvious way and re-post the link to your 'stolen' version.

No prizes i'm afraid....but might keep you entertained for a while...
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36483_439620371873_533551873_5797294_3937145_n.jpg
 
Rambo, further to my post above, wanna know how I did it?!

A Mac has a program on it called 'Preview' which lets you grab part of a screen and save it as a tiff file. I then opened it in editing software which I have for work, added the text, exported it as a jpg and uploaded to FB. Took less time than it took for my egg to boil for lunch.

ETA: But if there really was a photo of a horse on that link you posted, then I couldn't see it, and for me that totally defeats the object of pro photography - I almost never buy pics on the day, in fact I don't think I ever have. But I have bought lots from the internet after the event. If pics weren't online then I probably wouldn't ever buy any - half the time they aren't up when I go to the photographers stand anyway...
 
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When I opend the page you linked IE7 asked me if I wanted to allow the page to access my clipboard. I answered "no". The page then loaded.

Print Screen >> MS Paint >> Ctrl V etc etc
 
Where people have suggested fuzzing the online piccie out to make it worthless for copying, splashing copyright all over it, or making it so tiny that it's not worth a copy..... well then I'm afraid I would not buy it!

I mostly buy the pics at competitions because I can ask for the pic to be cropped/focussed in on there and then or look at it in detail and compare against others.

I rarely buy at a later date because the quality looks poor and the copyright obliterates most of the photo.

I know all togs say that the photo will be improved on printing, but I have found that many are not....so if I can't see it clearly on the web I just don't buy - sorry
 
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