Thieving Scumbag Facebook shoplifters- Rant follows

spidge

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For those of a nervous disposition, please be aware rant follows.

As one of the photographers at the Area 46 2010 BSJA show at the weekend I have seen reduced sales based on last years figures, reduced competitor numbers as it fell just a week after Hickstead ( very local for those who don't know the geography). Ok so show numbers generally are down and we are all having to work a bit harder to stand still. That I can deal with.

Having put 3 days worth of pictures online we have sold just 2 pictures through our web site from that show. Yes just 2 low resolution digital download files for a total of £10 from a total of some 4000 images. Yet my web site viewing stats have been really busy. Busy that is with riders updating their Facebook pages with sometimes as many as 30 images on which they are getting fulsome praise and compliments from their mates for their successes etc at the weekend. The issue is not cost as via my web site there has been the option of a Facebook suitable downloadable image for just £3. That's the price I paid for my bacon and egg roll before the show on Sunday and cheaper than the butty and a cup of tea at £4. Yet when I look around the showground I see £100k lorries and £50k horses. Mistake or pi**take?

So as of tonight I have hidden all my BSJA event galleries and will only make these available to people who register their name, address and email details with me.

A rider has suggested to me that I name and shame the guilty parties for bringing the BSJA into disrepute. An interesting suggestion and one I shall pursue tomorrow. My business will of course suffer temporarily whilst those genuine customers are made to go through an extra step and I have to keep changing the gallery URL'S weekly to keep ahead of the shoplifters. Why do riders think they have the right to help themselves to images on my website as if it is some magical try before you buy pick'n'mix sweetie counter.

I'm not the only photographer suffering. We are talking here about BSJA competitors who compete regularly at venues as far apart as Addington, Cricklands, Towerlands etc not just your local spit and sawdust venue. I see shoplifted copyright images in their hundreds and thousands- it's an epidemic of thieving that has no moral justification and very little price justification either when one considers the cost of a print in relation to lorries, livestock, training, logistics and accomodation costs.

Thank you if you are still reading this, I feel better now.
 
There is a way of disabling right click (and therefore save picture as …) on websites bit I can't remember the coding. Of course the more determined can still print screen and crop, but you could put a massive watermark across the whole image with "stolen from www.abc.com"?!
 
I strengthened my watermark last week to something more direct, right click is disabled but it makes no difference.

A thief is a thief is a thief, if it can be made by man it can be broken by man.
 
Thats awful behaviour, and isnt it illegal??

I dont compete my horses anymore but I do compete my dogs and we have photographers in attendance at show who upload pics to buy on their website, much like you do from the sound of it. You are unable to right click of C&P any of the images (there is a message on the website saying this) and i cant think why anyone would anyway!! You spend all day there doing your job, if ppeople want the benefits of that they should pay for it

I would put a comment on the website saying any unauthorised use of the pics will be prosecuted or something and see if that deters people...
 
The problem is people want something for nothing these days. I photograph shows too for a pro down here and this year profits are right down... sometimes I walk away with £30 for a 9 hour day. Last year I photographed a BE event and took home £20, spent £10 in petrol getting there and back and was out of the house for 18 hours and had a 15 min break inbetween classes.

Bad times... and those people who nick photos from the website will be the first to complain if the pro isn't at the show because it's not financially viable anymore for them to attend.
 
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The problem is people want something for nothing these days. I photograph shows too for a pro down here and this year profits are right down... sometimes I walk away with £30 for a 9 hour day. Last year I photographed a BE event and took home £20, spent £10 in petrol getting there and back and was out of the house for 18 hours and had a 15 min break inbetween classes.

Bad times... and those people who nick photos from the website will be the first to complain if the pro isn't at the show because it's not financially viable anymore for them to attend.


Wow! I cant believe photographers make so little money!! Thats shocking...

I keep meaning to order 3 beautiful prints of my dog at a recent show to put on my wall, will go do that now i think lol
 
How about charging for the right to see the photos? Charge £10 for their album to be unlocked, redeemable on purchase of photographs? At least then if theft takes place you are earning something out of it? You cannot be any worse off than you are now.
 
Thats appauling! unfortunetly I do have aquantainces on facebook who have some of those photos on there facebook!
 
Weezy, if I genuinely thought people would pay it I would. I just can't see that idea succeeding.

Twizzell, that is not even minimum wage. Move to Sussex I pay my togs substantially more. You must really love what you do.

Jesspickle, I bet I know who some of them are too! The type of customer that wastes 5 minutes of your time looking at their pictures, then can't make up their mind and confirms that the pictures will be on the internet. So they can most likely shoplift them later...

Well not any more :-)
 
Spidge, I spend a lot of time on an art website (for literature purposes), and I know many members of that website have had pictures stolen for use on facebook. They contacted facebook and the offending pictures were removed.

I know it's a lot of effort, but maybe it would be worth it. Once you've done it a couple of times, people may take your copywrite more seriously.

Unfortunatly, this does seem to be a huge problem anywhere in the art/photography online sector. Other than big fugly completely in the way watermarks, I don't know what else you could do.
 
I do love it... but I'm now wondering whether it's actually worth doing it which is something I never thought would go through my mind :( I just can't take the risk (especially as now we compete, so often leave the horses at home to try and make a bit of £££), sometimes we have a good day sometimes we have a bad day but we never know until we are there and then it's almost too late.
 
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MissSBird, I have shied away from doing that as I always thought of it as free advertising and fear of upsetting my customers. The thing is a lot of them are occasional customers and some just perennial browsers ( timewasters?)

Today gave me the right hump, having spent three 14-16 hour days photographing, selling, editing, uploading etc. Perhaps reporting to Facebook is the only answer.
 
I do love it... but I'm now wondering whether it's actually worth doing it which is something I never thought would go through my mind :( I just can't take the risk (especially as now I compete, so often leave the horses at home to try and make a bit of £££), sometimes we have a good day sometimes we have a bad day but we never know until we are there and then it's almost too late. I did a show a couple of weeks back, took my card back in between a class at about 3pm, and was told not one of my photos had sold so far that day... totally demoralising :(

Send me a PM, something sounds not quite right there. Best discussed offline methinks.
 
if you know who has stolen the photos on FB, could you message them directly and tell them that you intend to prosecute them/inform BSJA, unless they pay up for the photos they have nicked? Perhaps even send them a link to the payment page of your website?

even if you get a few replies, at least the word might start to spread, and they may think twice about doing it again?
 
Sorry to hear you had such a fruitless day (or days!) at Ardingly over the weekend. We were there on saturday and were shocked at how down the numbers seemed to be. That said, 4000 images is a hell of a lot for only 2 or 3 sales ! You weren't the only photographer there that weekend either were you ? Do you know if the other (Southdown Stables) had a similarly poor show ? Was it always the Cuckfield Ring that you were covering ? There were a lot of pony classes in there (on saturday at least)....you would have thought if anyone was going to buy memento's then it would be parents of their little darlings ! I really don't know what to suggest but i guess the registration option on your website is one small deterrent.

I don't buy many photo's as i've explained before....but i would hate to see people like you disappearing from our shows....perhaps i will make the effort in future to buy a photo or two....just need to get the horse jumping some fences in the ring first but that's a different story....
 
That's such a shame, I am sorry to hear that.

In all honesty I can understand it when buying a photo is £10-£15 each but if you offer downloadable ones for just £3 then there is no excuse.

I would contact facebook to get the photos removed, and if it is not already, make it abundantly clear on your website that downloadable photos are only £3 each - and that due to your business suffering, you will be contacting facebook etc to get any stolen photos taken down.
 
Sorry to hear you had such a fruitless day (or days!) at Ardingly over the weekend. We were there on saturday and were shocked at how down the numbers seemed to be. That said, 4000 images is a hell of a lot for only 2 or 3 sales ! You weren't the only photographer there that weekend either were you ? Do you know if the other (Southdown Stables) had a similarly poor show ? Was it always the Cuckfield Ring that you were covering ? There were a lot of pony classes in there (on saturday at least)....you would have thought if anyone was going to buy memento's then it would be parents of their little darlings ! I really don't know what to suggest but i guess the registration option on your website is one small deterrent.

I don't buy many photo's as i've explained before....but i would hate to see people like you disappearing from our shows....perhaps i will make the effort in future to buy a photo or two....just need to get the horse jumping some fences in the ring first but that's a different story....

Yes numbers were definitely down, takings were never going to be huge as we were only covering 1 ring. What saddens me is that we have so many genuinely loyal customers who appreciate the professional standards that we offer- we consistently receive compliments on our photography, the diversity of shots we offer per rider and the excellent quality of the prints, together with generally very knowledgable customer service ( excludes me as I am not a rider- just the photographer).

Regarding what level of sales Southdown had, I'm sorry I have no idea. What I do know is that I have also seen high levels of shoplifting form their website for the same event, so I imagine their web sales have been as poor. Pony classes are notoriously poor sellers for me: so much so that I will choose to have the day off rather than photograph a Junior BSJA day. My takings on say a 100 rider junior BSJA would be roughly 30-40% of the equivalent number for seniors. No, I have no clue why.

The registration option will be a small deterrent coupled with enforcement action to get Facebook images removed that have been shoplifted. I rather suspect that my onsite sales will now go up which has to be a good thing.
 
Thank you for all the support. comments and suggestions so far. I am off to do a days photography now so will be offline till this evening, but will ping back replies then.

Have a good day all.
 
We were at Winkleigh BE on sunday, the photographer there only prints them off on the day, they are not on the website at all. Must admit I was hoping to have a look at them at home but can now perfectly understand why they no longer do this.
 
I see their point too jrp.

Spidge I think the memory stick with all images on is the way to go, not sure how fast you will be able to do it tho, convert to low res and then upload. Charge them on the day of show perhaps?

Sales on day v sales from internet - statistics please :)


Oooh, another idea - you could charge on the day for a password to access the site?
 
We were at Winkleigh BE on sunday, the photographer there only prints them off on the day, they are not on the website at all. Must admit I was hoping to have a look at them at home but can now perfectly understand why they no longer do this.

I was going to make a similar point. The photographer at Eland at the weekend only sells on the day (then posts prints first class, though printing on the day would be more popular) and has no website. You'd have thought that would be bad for business but there was a half hour queue and everyone was putting their hands in their pockets. I believe he will send you watermarked proofs if you email him but he doesn't advertise this service and once you've emailed him he's got your address so if the proofs turn up somewhere they shouldn't he could get hold of you.
 
The thing is, I'm not sure the toe-rags who illegally copy photos to their FB would buy photos anyway, so I'm of the opinion you need to somehow prevent that without putting off genuine would-be buyers by making it difficult for them to look at what's available - tricky I'm sure.
We rarely buy at shows and mostly don't even look tbh - too much else to do usually - so the ability to browse a website is a welcome option.
 
I see their point too jrp.

Spidge I think the memory stick with all images on is the way to go, not sure how fast you will be able to do it tho, convert to low res and then upload. Charge them on the day of show perhaps?

Sales on day v sales from internet - statistics please :)


Oooh, another idea - you could charge on the day for a password to access the site?

I have offered memory sticks for the last year but to be honest is not something we have actively marketed, will do so more now. The conversion to low res is actually dead simple so no worries there.

Sales on day v internet- depends on the event. BSJA perhaps 3-5% online, riding club or unaffiliated ODE perhaps 30% online.
 
the thing is, IMO, with charging for passwords or access to the website just to see the pictures with or without the fee being taken back from your purchase, is that there may not be anything you want to buy.

I see a lot of pictures from one particular photographer where frankly, IMO (and others) , the quality and composition mostly suck, and id be reluctant to pay up just to see HIS pics just IN CASE there was something nice, and reluctant anyway as i know i normally seem to be unintentionally pulling a face when im snapped, lol, i try not to buy those ones ;).
the deposit would have to be refundable to me even if i didnt buy, which yes, defeats the object as i could nip in and nick pictures if i was that way inclined.
 
Ok I had a look at your site to see what the problems are and here is my 2 pennies worth

1. Your images are too high res - far too crisp. Either drop down the quality or stick a blur on them

2. Your file protection is shocking - I'll PM you what I can see

3. Your watermark is still too 'nice' - I'd put in "Image Stolen From www.spidge.co.uk" in much larger thicker letters and more opaque
 
I have had a look why not try something like this and also but what CotswoldSJ suggest 'image stolen from.......' diagoanle (sp) across the middle.
http://www.johnbritterphotography.com/eventpics/salp10/4/
Images to small for any benifit from the person stealing them and with the writing across you wouldnt be able to see much, If they had to email you to find out if it was them or see picture without watermark you would have there email contact etc.......
Just a thought
 
If you see one of your images on facebook, why not comment on it to the effect that the image has been lifted from your site illegally and is in breach of copyright. Then give the offender 3 days to pay for an unwatermarked version before you report it to facebook and have it removed. You could just make a standard wording that you could cut and paste everytime you become aware of it. It would embarrass the perpetrator into paying hopefully, and if not discourage them from doing it again.

I'd also contact the shows that you are planning to attend and for the rest of the year and ask them if it is not too late to put a warning in the programme about abuse of copyright. If BJSA competitions are the worst then a general letter to the BSJA before you start naming individuals, maybe asking them to publish something in their newsletter. Make the point that it is going to result in photographers not turning up.
 
I was also at winkleigh and gave up in the end with the photographers there, I was there for several hours past me finishing due to travelling with a friend in a different class but my SJ photos weren't up even 5 hours after i jumped and from my XC photos I was perhaps tempted by a couple but decided against with not being able to see them all. Also every time I went to ask if they were going to be put up the poor girl manning the desk was more than a tad busy! (so hopefully they did have some good sales!)

I again though had my OH to hand with my DSLR so got several from him in both jumping phases (couldn't drag him there early enoguh for my before 9am dressage ;) ), but even with him there I would have still purchased a good pro pic or 2 especially as they had very reasonable prices (about £7 I think if I remember rightly!)

I can feel for your rant as only 4 photos being sold is unbelievable. I really don't know what the answer is other than as you say passwording the albums so requiring details for the images to be viewed.

As for contacting facebook it will take you some time but at least with the images having a copyright they should be easy to prove have been copied illegally. I had a lot of problems persuading facebook I owned the copyright to some of mine last year but managed it in the end and that was for only one girl but she had taken about 100 of my images from various events!!
 
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